Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Bud, Dutch was the best of the best when it comes to Spec Ops... He turned around and fought somebody, again, superhuman and was holding his own. Losing, but still competing. He was beating the Predator and the game he was best at... hunting. You can call Dutch whatever you want.. but certainly never simply call him human level. He's beyond that, which is again, the point here.
So you're saying Dutch is superhuman, right? How bout Indiana Jones? How bout Rambo? Even Lois Lane from the first Superman movie?
Originally posted by Arachnid1
The problem with that is, if we go by your and tkitna's criteria, you have to be enhanced in some way relevant to the plot to be considered super human. For example, you two would probably consider Cap or Winter Soldier to be super human right?
Yes and Yes. To be Superhuman, you have to be special in a way that sets you apart from any other human. Just approaching a certain limit through training doesnt get it. If so, any human could achieve those goals if they wanted it bad enough.
Now, imagine a completely new character whos considered to be a non super powered individual like Nite Owl, but he can replicate Caps feats. Say he was never enhanced in any way, and achieved it through training. If we go off your criteria, he isn't considered super human because he was never outright stated to have powers. Despite this, he's the exact same as Cap.
Thats a bad example because its impossible. No length of training will ever allow a human being to rip doors off of cars or throw motorcycles at will.
Just look at Ozy. The dude caught a bullet. Something neither Cap or WS can replicate. Despite this, he has no powers and achieved super human reflexes through training. Do we consider him super human or just a normal human?
The bullet catching is a great feat and I do believe there is something more to that then meets the eye. No amount of training can propel a normal human being to those types of reflexes. Either Ozy is actually superhuman to some extent or it was a flat out parlor trick.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You didn't answer the questions:1. Is Spiderman faster than Bucky or Cap?
A. If so, why does it appear Bucky and Cap are exchanging blows faster?2. Is it not a common theme in movies to slow fight scenes down so the viewing audience can perceive it better?
3. Can superman indeed punch 50 times in a second, if he was able to read every book in the entire world written on medicine in moments. He should be able to right? Well, if the comic book artists never shown him doing so, does that mean he can't?
A. Same thing here, if Ozy can move his arm so fast that he can catch a bullet, while barely looking. Shouldn't he be able to punch faster than what he appeared to? Simple question.
I don't need to answer any dumb, obvious questions, because I never made any claims that contradict them. All I said was that enhanced/superspeed has been visually depicted in numerous ways before Watchmen, so if there is anything visually lacking, it's not because of the film's age. That's it. You, on the other hand, did make a claim, and have yet to provide more than your opinion and speculation as evidence. And I highly doubt you are going to.
You know what, let's cut all the BS now and get to the facts. I'm sick and tired of all this nonsense about Bucky being on the same level with Ozy, and same saying above. Okay then, provide the feat that exceeds what Ozy did. It must exceed since people are claiming WS wins and is better in these areas
1. Show me a reaction/speed feat from Bucky that exceeds Ozy catching a bullet. Not just the speed to catch a bullet. But having your back turned, arms at your side, and still react fast enough to move your arm up and catch it with your hand
::Insert Bucky feat here::
2. While we're talking reactions... I'd like to see reaction/Speed feat on par with these from Ozy
A. During the assassination attempt, he was shown moving fast enough to avoid fire, and then casually dodge the last point blank shot while disarming his foe
B. Similarly during his fight with the comedian. He's shown at the door more... roughly 15 or 20 feet from the Comedian... Yet he's still able to react to the Comedian going for his gun even further away, yet be in a perfect position of to the side, seemingly out of now where to grab the gun.
::Insert Bucky feats here::
2. Skill - We see Ozy casually dealing with expert martial artists as if they were nothing. Guys likely much more versed in MA than either Bucky or Cap.. and certainly knowing more variety of MA. Yet these guys were unable to land blows on Ozy. Sometimes with his back turned. Now show me feats from Bucky where he appears this skilled and doesn't have any blows landed on him by expert MA's
::Insert Bucky feats here::
3. Lastly, I'd like to see the feats of Bucky sending guys flying with his blows in the same vein as what Ozy did.
:: Insert Bucky feat here:
Let's see where the chips stack up
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually I never used the term Superhuman... though he very well could be. At the very least, he's peak human.
Peak human I agree with. But using your definition: Dutch was able to do feats that no peak human in the real world would be able to replicate. Does that make him superhuman in your book?
Originally posted by tkitnaThats exactly the point of my example! We have fictional characters who achieve absolutely impossible feats that go beyond what any normal human can do, despite the fact that they were never given enhancements plot wise. They have super human abilities, but you don't consider them super human. Your post also shows that you agree that anything above what a normal human can achieve through training is superhuman. Its a bit contradictory
Yes and Yes. To be Superhuman, you have to be special in a way that sets you apart from any other human. Just approaching a certain limit through training doesnt get it. If so, any human could achieve those goals it they wanted it bad enough.Thats a bad example because its impossible. No length of training will ever allow a human being to rip doors off of cars or throw motorcycles at will.
Originally posted by tkitnaI agree with Frothbytes assessment of Ozy being a low level super human in the same league as Cap, but below someone like Spidey. Despite this, to consider him super human in any capacity would be wrong going off your criteria because he was never enhanced by the plot
The bullet catching is a great feat and I do believe there is something more to that then meets the eye. No amount of training can propel a normal human being to those types of reflexes. Either Ozy is actually superhuman to some extent or it was a flat out parlor trick.
Its kind of a hard thing to assess, but I've always grouped characters into tiers depending solely on their feats/stats/abilites completely ignoring the plot. You have low tier stats characters like Punisher, Constantine or Question. Then you have the low level super human characters like Cap, Ozy who perform impossible feats (some of these characters achieved this teir through training alone as opposed to plot related powers), but not to the extent of the next teir of characters like Daredevil or Spiderman. Then you start getting into higher end characters like Thor or Hulk. After that you have god tier people like Superman or Flash.
Originally posted by FrothByte
In the real world, that's how we would judge it. But in action movies? Heck even side characters like Lois Lane have some durability feats that put them above peak human. Where do we draw the line? As soon as a character does something above what a peak human can do then they become superhuman? That means nearly all action movie characters become superhuman. Example: Dutch from Predator was able to shoot an arrow through a tree trunk. In the real world that impossible for any human to do. Do we consider him superhuman?
Originally posted by Inhuman
His mind was superhuman. His schemes and planing were above normal 👆
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerI know you guys are joking, but this actually kind of makes and supports FrothBytes point above. I didn't really get it at first, but I can see what he's saying. It's a hard thing to judge, and I'm not completely sure were to draw the line lol
Ok... guess I am going to have to start looking for people who died before doing anything. 😆 ... providing there aren't flashbacks later.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
I know you guys are joking, but this actually kind of makes and supports FrothBytes point above. I didn't really get it at first, but I can see what he's saying. It's a hard thing to judge, and I'm not completely sure were to draw the line lol
I retyped some stuff on my post. Still stands for this ongoing argument.
Originally posted by Inhuman
They are super human just as much as all the skilled Main heroes I listed. Even John McClain can be argued to have super human durability. But we wouldn't call the character super human. He is just a regular Cop in the wrong place at the wrong time. A lot of movie characters have flashes of what we would call superhuman instances. Doesn't mean we should classify them as full on superhumans.
Thats why Die Hard isnt a sci-fi movie that features an enhanced hero.
The Watchmen (sans DM & Ozy) are not super human. Having a few "slight" instances of questionable feats doesnt make it so.
I mean Steven Segal & J.C. Van Damme characters have feats of tossing people 10 feet+ and breaking bones, arms with ease. Dodging gun fire at very close range. But I wouldnt call him super human.
I do agree that some characters are hard to judge and there is a thin line.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Peak human I agree with. But using your definition: Dutch was able to do feats that no peak human in the real world would be able to replicate. Does that make him superhuman in your book?
He's clearly superhuman in some areas. Not all, but clearly some. Which is kind of the crux of the argument. Doing one thing that is superhuman might not get you classified as superhuman. Doing things over and over that are superhuman or being superhuman in a few areas might.
For example if your Durability and skill are superhuman, yet your speed and agility are only peak human. Well, that makes it hard to define doesn't it. Which is he. Do you believe somebody needs to be superhuman in every way or can you be superhuman in some things but not others.... yet still have the superhuman tag?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He's clearly superhuman in some areas. Not all, but clearly some. Which is kind of the crux of the argument. Doing one thing that is superhuman might not get you classified as superhuman. Doing things over and over that are superhuman or being superhuman in a few areas might.For example if your Durability and skill are superhuman, yet your speed and agility are only peak human. Well, that makes it hard to define doesn't it. Which is he. Do you believe somebody needs to be superhuman in every way or can you be superhuman in some things but not others.... yet still have the superhuman tag?
I think the character needs to consistently display superhuman performances in at least 1 area. For example, Jessica Jones has consistently displayed superhuman strength though not superhuman durability. That makes her superhuman in my book.
Dutch has only accomplished 1 superhuman feat whereas in everything else he's portrayed as peak human, which to me does not make him superhuman.
Same can be said for Roscharch, Nightowl and Comedian. They have some few superhuman feats, but it doesn't happen consistently enough for me to consider them superhuman.
Originally posted by Inhuman
I retyped some stuff on my post. Still stands for this ongoing argument.I mean Steven Segal & J.C. Van Damme characters have feats of tossing people 10 feet+ and breaking bones, arms with ease. Dodging gun fire at very close range. But I wouldnt call him super human.
I do agree that some characters are hard to judge and there is a thin line.
I don't dispute it can be hard to judge, and the criteria subjective. No argument there. Difference is Segal nor J.C.V.D. displayed superhuman attributes in different areas. Example, durability and speed. Sure they kicked dudes butts the way N.O. and R did, but they've never taken blows like they did. They were never shown fighting a dude who can casually, while doing a monologue, sending people flying that way. I can't recall a movie where they were taking blows such as that, and repeated blows. I agree that N.O. and R are tough to define. Maybe they are more peak human than superhuman. Could be. At the very least though.. they displayed some superhuman abilities, and guess what, they couldn't land a blow on Ozy. That's telling.
This just in, all action movies heroes are now superhumans.
To quote the Incredibles
Helen Parr (to her son): "Everyone's special, Dash."
Dash: "Which is another way of saying no one is."
Syndrome (to Mr. Incredible): "I'll give them the most spectacular heroics anyone's ever seen. And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can be superheroes. Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super, no one will be."