Originally posted by FrothByte
As far as I know, you're the only one who thinks Cap's stats improve over time. As far as who is more skilled, then it's Cap > Bucky > Ozy.
In this very thread two people said it, including Rob. It's occurred in other threads when the subject has come up. The fact of the matter is, it's more logical that Cap has improved what he can do through experience and training. To say otherwise, is taking the more illogical view. Could it still be true, I suppose, but it simply falls way short logically when compared to the other option.
I can't really take much of what you say seriously anymore if you believe EITHER Cap or Bucky is more skilled h2h than Ozy. Cap is a great many things, one thing he not, is an expert martial artist. Cap is a brick. He's a boxer/Military combat kind of guy. He's not doing elaborate moves or kicks or flips while kicking. He's not turning his back and effortlessly blocking strikes while not looking from expert martial artists. To even try and say Cap is some expert marital artist is laughable. He's not. Just look at his fights and you'd see that.
Now in stark contrast, Ozy fought some of the best MA around. Legit peak human or superhuman (in some areas) guys, and they couldn't land a single blow on him. Nothing. These are guys who are certified experts at various MA. They couldn't even land a blow and he was effortlessly beating them while doing a monologue. That is leaps and bounds about anything Cap has shown MA wise. If you disagree, name me the best MA he fought, and show me the clip of him effortlessly beating them, without them landing a blow. Post the damn clip. I challenged all the clowns in this thread who said WS wins. I challenged each and every one of you to feat comparison. Not one, not one person could post feats of Bucky matching the feats I provided for Ozy. Not one. Here again, baseless fanboy claims than Cap and Bucky are more skilled. What a complete joke. Post the feats or GTFO of here with that BS
Originally posted by tkitna
Your so lost in your own perception of things that I believe you have me confused with another poster. I never brought up the subject of speed anywhere, but oh well. Lets just say it like it is, even if Ozy is faster (which he probably is) its not like he's the Flash and WS isn't going to tag him. Hell, he was beating on Cap and Cap is far superior to Ozy. All he really needs to do is get close enough to deliver a few blows or grab him and it would be over. Ozy has no feats that would indicate he could take a beating from somebody like Bucky.
Luckily Cap isn't in this thread is he? It's Ozy against Bucky, and Ozy outshines Bucky is pretty much every way. He wins, and to be frank, with only marginal difficulty
Originally posted by FrothByte
As far as I know, you're the only one who thinks Cap's stats improve over time. As far as who is more skilled, then it's Cap > Bucky > Ozy.
Cap has improved since CA:TFA. He'll likely improve again over his showing in AOU for CW with even greater feats of strength and likely fighting prowess.
IMO, BP's going to be portrayed as one seriously capable combatant and Caps going to need to match or possibly surpass that.
Originally posted by Robtard
[QUOTE=15634689]Originally posted by FrothByte
[B]As far as I know, you're the only one who thinks Cap's stats improve over time.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Kt is an Ozy fanboy.
Too bad Albus crushes the second class wizard Voldemort.. You can post again when you're bleeding has stopped from the gapping Volde received in that thread. It wasn't quite as bad as Khan getting owned easily by every jedi or sith he's faced. Something like 95% across all threads in the Sith and Jedi favor. Sure Mort didn't lose that bad, but he still got owned LOL
Originally posted by Robtard
Cap has improved since CA:TFA. He'll likely improve again over his showing in AOU for CW with even greater feats of strength and likely fighting prowess.IMO, BP's going to be portrayed as one seriously capable combatant and Caps going to need to match or possibly surpass that.
Agreed. Of course he has, it would be moronic to assume he hasn't improved at all since TFA. It would defy common sense and logic to think Cap just stays static and can never improve via training and experience. That is just comical
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiYou were ridiculous in that thread made claims you couldn't back and retreated to anither thread in which you're getting your shit pushed in. Quit going off topic and try to stay on task here. You're so emotional probably due to your horse face but get over it.
Too bad Albus crushes the second class wizard Voldemort.. You can post again when you're bleeding has stopped from the gapping Volde received in that thread. It wasn't quite as bad as Khan getting owned easily by every jedi or sith he's faced. Something like 95% across all threads in the Sith and Jedi favor. Sure Mort didn't lose that bad, but he still got owned LOL
Originally posted by Robtard
Cap has improved since CA:TFA. He'll likely improve again over his showing in AOU for CW with even greater feats of strength and likely fighting prowess.IMO, BP's going to be portrayed as one seriously capable combatant and Caps going to need to match or possibly surpass that.
Let me try to clarify what you are saying here. Are you saying you believe Cap has improved skillwise and experience-wise or are you saying that Cap actually gets physically stronger and faster as time goes by?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Cap is a great many things, one thing he not, is an expert martial artist. Cap is a brick. He's a boxer/Military combat kind of guy. He's not doing elaborate moves or kicks or flips while kicking. He's not turning his back and effortlessly blocking strikes while not looking from expert martial artists. To even try and say Cap is some expert marital artist is laughable. He's not. Just look at his fights and you'd see that.
Ok KT, I'd advise that before you continue discussing in this thread you actually go and first watch The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron. It's obvious from your statements that you've only seen CATFA and Avengers.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ozy fought some of the best MA around. Legit peak human or superhuman (in some areas) guys, and they couldn't land a single blow on him. Nothing. These are guys who are certified experts at various MA. They couldn't even land a blow and he was effortlessly beating them while doing a monologue. That is leaps and bounds about anything Cap has shown MA wise. If you disagree, name me the best MA he fought, and show me the clip of him effortlessly beating them, without them landing a blow.
I said earlier in the thread that I think Ozy could win against Bucky (not that he WOULD win). I think they are very closely matched and I am inclined to give Ozy a slight edge in HTH. But it's so close imo that I don't really feel inclined to argue either way.
However, I have to respond to the fact that you called out Cap on his feat vs martial artists. I posted this in another thread so I'm just repeating it here (This is from Winter Soldier, when Cap fights Batroc, an expert in HTH and a master of savate and kickboxing):
"From the time he puts away his shield and drops his mask, it takes Cap less than 10 seconds to put Batroc down. Every strike or kick by Batroc is either blocked or avoided during this time. A single elbow strike to the head causes Batroc to stagger back several steps, dazed. A front-flip kick then puts him down, unable to defend himself. The rest is overkill.
Using Batroc as an example of a skilled opponent enduring an assault by Cap is a poor choice."
Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok KT, I'd advise that before you continue discussing in this thread you actually go and first watch The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron. It's obvious from your statements that you've only seen CATFA and Avengers.
Let me get your stance straight here... because you're all over the place. So tell me which marital arts does Cap know exactly? Specifically I'm looking for the MA we've physically seen him training in. Because according to you, if we don't see him training doing very specific things... we can't assume he can. That is your view. So which MA is he an expert in?
Which again would destroy your theory if you believe he has become an expert in various MA. Why? Well, because learning arts like Akido, or Judo or BJJ or TKD... would all improve various areas. He'd be able to use leverage better and thus lift heavier things just leaning some of those arts. Same with TKD, which would improve his flexibility and movement, especially jumping. All of which I've supported over the years and you have been staunchly against. Claiming Cap hasn't improved his speed or strength or anything really. Yet here, if you believe he is now a trained MA expert, then he would've unquestionably improved in areas you're saying he hasn't.
If you believe those things would improve the areas I named. Then why are you opposed to him continually learning stuff to improve his technique and leverage. Why would experience and training not improve him? It's simply laughable to think Cap hasn't improved himself though training and experience. On one hand you go with the characters long storied history of trying to improve himself and be better. Then turn around and go, no way, prove he studied techniques to improve his technique and thus his strength. Prove it. LOL. Yet here, we never see him train in a variety of MA and become an expert in them.... yet you assume he has. Hypocrisy 101.
I'm loving these contradictions. Now to the argument at hand. Batroc, a legit street leveler... was able to LAND blows on a Cap WITH his shield. You can claim Cap wasn't trying, but that is a complete and total lie. Once he encountered him, it was his goal to capture and apprehend him. Why would he not try? That is beyond dumb to even try and claim that. So we have a Cap, who's trying (not going all out), and yet still getting pushed back and blows landed on him while having a shield
NOW IN STARK CONTRAST
We have, again, legit peak human (superhuman in some ways) guys fighting Ozy. Who we can safely, and without question say, is barely even trying. It's like he's taking a stroll on the beach talking to a friend. Yet, even then, they are unable to land a SINGLE blow 2 v 1 on him. Not one. Yet somebody, imo below them MA, and certainly durability wise, is able to land on Cap.
Even Bucky, in the Black Widow encounter. Do you honestly believe Ozy would've been taken by surprise the way WS was? She basically stalemated him and got the jump on him. When I say stalemate, I mean he never landed any decisive blows when they fought. She tucked tail and ran, knowing she wasn't going to win, no argument there. However, they still locked up and exchanged a few blows. Now only would Ozy have seen whatever BW had in mind coming, she wouldn't have done a thing to him.
Can you picture Ozy in the elevator, like Cap was with the agents. Can you imagine even one of them landing a single thing on Ozy? I can't. He would've destroyed them with talking and not a blow landed on him. We can't say the same for Cap can we.
The reality is this, does Cap know some MA's and trained in some. Yes, of course he has, which goes back to that whole logical progression thing again. However, that doesn't mean he's an expert in a variety of MA's. He doesn't pull off very many fancy MA's maneuvers really. He literally mostly fights like a brick, period. fact. Does he have skill, sure, obviously he's damn good at what he does. However, let's not pretend this guy is above Ozy in skill. That is simply laughable. Based on feats, Ozy is his clear superior when it comes to skill.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let me get your stance straight here... because you're all over the place. So tell me which marital arts does Cap know exactly? Specifically I'm looking for the MA we've physically seen him training in. Because according to you, if we don't see him training doing very specific things... we can't assume he can. That is your view. So which MA is he an expert in?Which again would destroy your theory if you believe he has become an expert in various MA. Why? Well, because learning arts like Akido, or Judo or BJJ or TKD... would all improve various areas. He'd be able to use leverage better and thus lift heavier things just leaning some of those arts. Same with TKD, which would improve his flexibility and movement, especially jumping. All of which I've supported over the years and you have been staunchly against. Claiming Cap hasn't improved his speed or strength or anything really. Yet here, if you believe he is now a trained MA expert, then he would've unquestionably improved in areas you're saying he hasn't.
If you believe those things would improve the areas I named. Then why are you opposed to him continually learning stuff to improve his technique and leverage. Why would experience and training not improve him? It's simply laughable to think Cap hasn't improved himself though training and experience. On one hand you go with the characters long storied history of trying to improve himself and be better. Then turn around and go, no way, prove he studied techniques to improve his technique and thus his strength. Prove it. LOL. Yet here, we never see him train in a variety of MA and become an expert in them.... yet you assume he has. Hypocrisy 101.
I'm loving these contradictions. Now to the argument at hand. Batroc, a legit street leveler... was able to LAND blows on a Cap WITH his shield. You can claim Cap wasn't trying, but that is a complete and total lie. Once he encountered him, it was his goal to capture and apprehend him. Why would he not try? That is beyond dumb to even try and claim that. So we have a Cap, who's trying (not going all out), and yet still getting pushed back and blows landed on him while having a shield
NOW IN STARK CONTRAST
We have, again, legit peak human (superhuman in some ways) guys fighting Ozy. Who we can safely, and without question say, is barely even trying. It's like he's taking a stroll on the beach talking to a friend. Yet, even then, they are unable to land a SINGLE blow 2 v 1 on him. Not one. Yet somebody, imo below them MA, and certainly durability wise, is able to land on Cap.
Even Bucky, in the Black Widow encounter. Do you honestly believe Ozy would've been taken by surprise the way WS was? She basically stalemated him and got the jump on him. When I say stalemate, I mean he never landed any decisive blows when they fought. She tucked tail and ran, knowing she wasn't going to win, no argument there. However, they still locked up and exchanged a few blows. Now only would Ozy have seen whatever BW had in mind coming, she wouldn't have done a thing to him.
Can you picture Ozy in the elevator, like Cap was with the agents. Can you imagine even one of them landing a single thing on Ozy? I can't. He would've destroyed them with talking and not a blow landed on him. We can't say the same for Cap can we.
The reality is this, does Cap know some MA's and trained in some. Yes, of course he has, which goes back to that whole logical progression thing again. However, that doesn't mean he's an expert in a variety of MA's. He doesn't pull off very many fancy MA's maneuvers really. He literally mostly fights like a brick, period. fact. Does he have skill, sure, obviously he's damn good at what he does. However, let's not pretend this guy is above Ozy in skill. That is simply laughable. Based on feats, Ozy is his clear superior when it comes to skill.
Jeeze man, I'm not going to read through that wall of text. Pick one point you want me to address and I'll address it. Once done, we'll move over to the next one.
You said you see Cap as a boxer/military type. Did you see the kind of moves he pulled in the latest movies? Hint: Boxers don't know how to do a front flip kick.
You also don't seem to know what martial arts truly mean. To you it means karate or taekwondo or something like that. I'd advise you to research on the definition of martial arts. Hint: Boxing is a valid martial art.
Now before we go any further: Do you really think that Cap is just a boxer?
Answer this point and we can move forward.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Let me try to clarify what you are saying here. Are you saying you believe Cap has improved skillwise and experience-wise or are you saying that Cap actually gets physically stronger and faster as time goes by?
Skill is seen when we compare him fighting say Red Skull compared to WS. Compare his moves when taking out Hydra troops in WW2 to the pirates on the cargo ship.
Strength, he's done greater feats of strength in his following showings. Motorcycle toss in AOU. In the CW trailer, he's seemingly holding a helicopter from taking off.
Speed. This one I'm not so sure. He did somewhat keep up with 1940's Plymouth in his first showing.
Should be noted that all three factors are something people can and do improve on. Skill with training, strength and speed with strength training and conditioning. No reason to believe Cap couldn't either.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Jeeze man, I'm not going to read through that wall of text. Pick one point you want me to address and I'll address it. Once done, we'll move over to the next one.You said you see Cap as a boxer/military type. Did you see the kind of moves he pulled in the latest movies? Hint: Boxers don't know how to do a front flip kick.
You also don't seem to know what martial arts truly mean. To you it means karate or taekwondo or something like that. I'd advise you to research on the definition of martial arts. Hint: Boxing is a valid martial art.
Now before we go any further: Do you really think that Cap is just a boxer?
Answer this point and we can move forward.
Please, read my post. The thing is with you, is that you seem in capable of making a logical line of progression and going with who is more likely. If you ACTUALLY read my post, you'd notice that I'm a supporter in him learning a variety of MA's. I even said he likely has studied a variety of things to improve himself. THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT. My only contention is that he's not an EXPERT in the variety of fields he's studied i.e. he's not a 3rd degree black belt in any one MA's let's say. That is my claim, not that he hasn't studied or learned anything new. THAT is your claim.
Your contradictions were exposed. Plain and Simple. On one hand you claim Cap hasn't improved his strength or speed through training and experience. That was your claim. Yet here, you're willing to say Cap has more skill than Ozy, when by feats, that couldn't be further from the truth. Cap, hasn't been shown training in a variety of MA's, let alone becoming a master at many. According to you, he needs to be shown training like that or it hasn't happened. Hypocrisy 101.
So which is it... has he improved himself through training and experience or hasn't he? Using your criteria, post the scenes where he's becoming a master in a variety of MA's, because if you can't post the clip, using your criteria, he's not. Now post the clips of him doing so, or stop claiming he's great a variety of MA's.
Are you talking to me about boxing... boxing LOL. Froth, you know better than this. I've forgotten more about boxing than you've ever known. I have no issue with boxing being an art, in fact it's my favorite one. However, Cap being a great boxer (not proven) doesn't make him a great MA's at a VAREITY of arts. Variety is the key. That is your claim. He'd have to be in order to be above Ozy in skill. Now prove he is by posting video clips, or stop claiming he is using your criteria. Simple
We can address the other points after you answer the questions posed here.
Originally posted by Robtard
Skill is seen when we compare him fighting say Red Skull compared to WS. Compare his moves when taking out Hydra troops in WW2 to the pirates on the cargo ship.Strength, he's done greater feats of strength in his following showings. Motorcycle toss in AOU. In the CW trailer, he's seemingly holding a helicopter from taking off.
Speed. This one I'm not so sure. He did somewhat keep up with 1940's Plymouth in his first showing.
Should be noted that all three factors are something people can and do improve on. Skill with training, strength and speed with strength training and conditioning. No reason to believe Cap couldn't either.
Of course he can and has. Jesus, I can't even believe this is still being questioned by people. It's moronic to believe Cap from TFA can do everything as well as Cap from the AoU. One has vastly more experience and training than the other. To even assume he's not better in more areas, is well, dumb.