Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Ok for the record I don't believe OWAW Superman (not sundipped) could beat this version of the thing.So we leave it at that.
I meant at his best, which I assume that we are going with when using the Hulk. I would place this version of the Thing on the level of Mindless Hulk when he took on both East Coast and West Coast Avengers. That would be a good fight. This is a slaughter... all things considered.
Originally posted by Stoic
I meant at his best, which I assume that we are going with when using the Hulk. I would place this version of the Thing on the level of Mindless Hulk when he took on both East Coast and West Coast Avengers. That would be a good fight. This is a slaughter... all things considered.
I don't think is a slaughter but a close fight. I put more value on the enemies that Thing faced than on what Hulk took on.
His list is way more impressive imo.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I don't think is a slaughter but a close fight. I put more value on the enemies that Thing faced than on what Hulk took on.His list is way more impressive imo.
They were all weaklings in comparison to WB Hulk and the few others that sit in that limited Big Dog's club. WB Hulk would thunderclap and kill every one of those guys except for the Juggernaut who would be BFRed and dazed for days. Go back and read just how strong WB Hulk was. Marvel had to all but retcon the entire HOTM story by having Doom perform brain surgery on the Hulk so that he would forget how to boost himself to those level due to his training on Sakaar. WB Hulk was the Hulk that the Beyonder was talking about.
Okay let's look at it like this. If the Thing was amped 100x base. The Hulk well before he went into the Dark Dimension was stronger than The Thing was when he was able to survive being hit by Hope in the intestines. Immortal Hercules is stronger than a regular Thing. The Hulk at an almost calm state took 133.5 Herc's to the intestines. Shit a toothache could put most people on their butts whining for Ora-gel. Just something to think about.
Originally posted by Stoic
They were all weaklings in comparison to WB Hulk and the few others that sit in that limited Big Dog's club. WB Hulk would thunderclap and kill every one of those guys except for the Juggernaut who would be BFRed and dazed for days. Go back and read just how strong WB Hulk was. Marvel had to all but retcon the entire HOTM story by having Doom perform brain surgery on the Hulk so that he would forget how to boost himself to those level due to his training on Sakaar. WB Hulk was the Hulk that the Beyonder was talking about.Okay let's look at it like this. If the Thing was amped 100x base. The Hulk well before he went into the Dark Dimension was stronger than The Thing was when he was able to survive being hit by Hope in the intestines. Immortal Hercules is stronger than a regular Thing. The Hulk at an almost calm state took 133.5 Herc's to the intestines. Shit a toothache could put most people on their butts whining for Ora-gel. Just something to think about.
Lol no. There are easy ways using logic and fallacies to prove your numbers wrong.
For something to be true you need true premises and the premises on those statements are false.
Like I said I don't have the energy or the will to get more into this right now, but just using logical fallacies the WBH case crumbles easy.
Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.
How can you say with a straight face that Hulk innards are 133.5 stronger than Hercules when Hercules can rock WWH?
One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Lol no. There are easy ways using logic and fallacies to prove your numbers wrong.For something to be true you need true premises and the premises on those statements are false.
Like I said I don't have the energy or the will to get more into this right now, but just using logical fallacies the WBH case crumbles easy.
Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.
How can you say with a straight face that Hulk innards are 133.5 stronger than Hercules when Hercules can rock WWH?
One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?
First off you are wrong. Sorry to put it so bluntly. What I've mentioned is canon, which is well above the opinions of the consumer. I didn't lie about anything but took everything that I stated from the books themselves. This version of the Thing simply was not, and is not on WB Hulk's level (far from it TBH). Like I said, the Hulk in a calm state was stronger than that particular Thing. This isn't even something that you should argue Rao. The Hulk has no finite element that can be found in him (quoted from the Beyonder), while the Thing has always had one. Even in the scans that you presented, we see the Thing's limit n the form of feeling the Rhino's punch. WB Hulk didn't even flinch from guys stronger than the Rhino, and while I have no doubt that this particular amped up version of the Thing could defeat Arm'Cheddon, Bi-Beast, and Wendigo, he would have felt the blows that they delivered, while WB Hulk before going ballistic didn't feel a thing from them. There is a huge gap between that Thing, and WB Hulk.
You don't get it. the Hulk was holding back when he was on Earth. He even said so when he was in Vegas.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
AgainThose ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.
One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?
Once again, because the Hulk was shown to have no upper limit to his might, he did not go beyond the safety limits of what he deemed the Earth could take. We later see this example during the HOTM arc. This would be difficult to fathom if the Hulk didn't actually have dynamic strength. You really have to read from WW Hulk until the end of Heart of the Monster in order to see exactly what I mean.Canonically speaking, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time while on Earth. He just lost the love of his life, and he was damned if he wouldn't let those that he deemed responsible for her death to feel what he was going through. However, he refused to kill them, which he could have at any time if we consider the destruction that went on during HOTM. The Hulk never had to tell anyone on Earth about his plans, he could have landed on Earth, and destroyed the planet and every living creature on it that was unable to survive the Earth's destruction. It was all canon. This version of the Thing would be torn apart by WB Hulk.
A listers-Z listers wouldn't make a bit of difference. That particular argument has no place here because if that were the case it would be like saying the Rhino due to popular status could take on Pagan and not be one shot killed.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
AgainThose ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.
One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?
Originally posted by Stoic
Once again, because the Hulk was shown to have no upper limit to his might, he did not go beyond the safety limits of what he deemed the Earth could take. We later see this example during the HOTM arc. This would be difficult to fathom if the Hulk didn't actually have dynamic strength. You really have to read from WW Hulk until the end of Heart of the Monster in order to see exactly what I mean.Canonically speaking, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time while on Earth. He just lost the love of his life, and he was damned if he wouldn't let those that he deemed responsible for her death to feel what he was going through. However, he refused to kill them, which he could have at any time if we consider the destruction that went on during HOTM. The Hulk never had to tell anyone on Earth about his plans, he could have landed on Earth, and destroyed the planet and every living creature on it that was unable to survive the Earth's destruction. It was all canon. This version of the Thing would be torn apart by WB Hulk.A listers-Z listers wouldn't make a bit of difference. That particular argument has no place here because if that were the case it would be like saying the Rhino due to popular status could take on Pagan and not be one shot killed.
I have read the whole arc from planet Hulk to HOTM and PAK's numbers are convoluted and contradict themselves. So his lip service does nothing when he himself presents two oposing points of view.
The question still remains is the measure "herc" wrong or accurate? If you say accurate please provide the evidence.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I have read the whole arc from planet Hulk to HOTM and PAK's numbers are convoluted and contradict themselves. So his lip service does nothing when he himself presents two oposing points of view.The question still remains is the measure "herc" wrong or accurate? If you say accurate please provide the evidence.
The evidence is in the books themselves. If you read all of the books then this isn't something that you should actually be asking for. It goes beyond opinion at this point. The Thing that you present in this thread is not an equal to the Hulk based on numbers and what was actually written.
The Hulk in a nearly calm state was stronger than this amped up Thing by a decent margin. Pak isn't the only writer to write outlandish stories. It's fiction. When OWAW Superman performed the way that he did at the height of his power, did you place it under this type of scrutiny? The Hulk has dynamic strength, and Pak gave the consumer a glimpse of that dynamic strength. This amped up Thing being used here had a limit while WB Hulk had the ability to amp at will. It is what it is man.
Originally posted by Stoic
The evidence is in the books themselves. If you read all of the books then this isn't something that you should actually be asking for. It goes beyond opinion at this point. The Thing that you present in this thread is not an equal to the Hulk based on numbers and what was actually written.The Hulk in a nearly calm state was stronger than this amped up Thing by a decent margin. Pak isn't the only writer to write outlandish stories. It's fiction. When OWAW Superman performed the way that he did at the height of his power, did you place it under this type of scrutiny? The Hulk has dynamic strength, and Pak gave the consumer a glimpse of that dynamic strength. This amped up Thing being used here had a limit while WB Hulk had the ability to amp at will. It is what it is man.
You haven't answered the question at hand.
All the numbers you are using are based on the convoluted numbers Pak gave on his comics.
While OWAW only thrown a single number out there and that single number didn't contradict anything. While pak thrown many numbers and they contradict each other.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
You haven't answered the question at hand.All the numbers you are using are based on the convoluted numbers Pak gave on his comics.
While OWAW only thrown a single number out there and that single number didn't contradict anything. While pak thrown many numbers and they contradict each other.
Convoluted? Was there something that confused you about what he wrote? It was all clear as day from the perspective of millions. The Hulk held back when he was on Earth, because the premise was that he wasn't a murderer. Having dynamic strength and a history stating that he had no known limit to his strength speaks for itself in volumes. He then goes on to show this strength in a place that no innocent lives were in danger of dying. All of his numbers were spot on because he wrote them. Prior to HOTM and WW Hulk, the Hulk learned how to focus his power, and gained the ability to go from base to Earth Crusher in a moment.
If in the future Superman decides to sun dive, and exhibit more power than the source from which his power derives, should we then place him under this kind of scrutiny? For all we know, the Hulk draws his power from a vast parallel multiverse without end. So to answer the question, while on Earth, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time, which can also be cited on panel because in this case it is literally etched in stone. Well comic book stone at least. He says on panel that he held back the entire time. This includes everything that happened during WW Hulk. Everything.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
AgainThose ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.
One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?
Hercules surprised attacked Hulk. Not the same as being prepared for a hit.
Originally posted by Stoic
Convoluted? Was there something that confused you about what he wrote? It was all clear as day from the perspective of millions. The Hulk held back when he was on Earth, because the premise was that he wasn't a murderer. Having dynamic strength and a history stating that he had no known limit to his strength speaks for itself in volumes. He then goes on to show this strength in a place that no innocent lives were in danger of dying. All of his numbers were spot on because he wrote them. Prior to HOTM and WW Hulk, the Hulk learned how to focus his power, and gained the ability to go from base to Earth Crusher in a moment.If in the future Superman decides to sun dive, and exhibit more power than the source from which his power derives, should we then place him under this kind of scrutiny? For all we know, the Hulk draws his power from a vast parallel multiverse without end. So to answer the question, while on Earth, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time, which can also be cited on panel because in this case it is literally etched in stone. Well comic book stone at least. He says on panel that he held back the entire time. This includes everything that happened during WW Hulk. Everything.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
AgainThose ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.
One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?
Are you going to keep going dancing around the issue or are you going to answer already which one is it?
If Hulk's soft internal tissue is 133.5 times stronger than Hercules. Hercules shouldn't be able to cause Hulk a nose bleed no matter how much Hulk is holding back. So the only logical conclusion is that the measurement of 1 herc is a number that Pak pulled out of his butt and that does not hold with his other portrayals of Hulk.
Is a WRONG number!
Now don't even get me started on that wishing well stuff because all of that crap is as convoluted as Pak's numbers
Originally posted by carver9
Hercules surprised attacked Hulk. Not the same as being prepared for a hit.
Carver, that's really beside the point here brother. The Hulk held himself in check due to collateral damage, and what that damage would have done to civilian lives. This is seen when he begs for someone to please stop him (Ref.World War Hulk#5), because he began to go outside of the restrictions that he himself placed upon himself, else Black Bolt (doppelganger) would have died in the first volley of that particular campaign. Furthermore, even if Hercules launched a sneak attack at the Hulk during HOTM, it would have mirrored the blows that he took from Arm'Cheddon, Wendigo, and Bi-Beast.
Originally posted by Stoic
Carver, that's really beside the point here brother. The Hulk held himself in check due to collateral damage, and what that damage would have done to civilian lives. This is seen when he begs for someone to please stop him (Ref.World War Hulk#5), because he began to go outside of the restrictions that he himself placed upon himself, else Black Bolt (doppelganger) would have died in the first volley of that particular campaign. Furthermore, even if Hercules launched a sneak attack at the Hulk during HOTM, it would have mirrored the blows that he took from Arm'Cheddon, Wendigo, and Bi-Beast.
I agree. It was outright said he held all of his power back. The nitpicking that is going on in this thread is laughable.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Stoic u said amped thing had a limit. Where was that shown?
He shows a limit when we see that Rhino's punch actually manages to hurt him. This is something that wouldn't have been noticed by WB Hulk. On panel proof while doing comparisons shows this beyond a shadow of doubt.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Are you going to keep going dancing around the issue or are you going to answer already which one is it?If Hulk's [b]soft
internal tissue is 133.5 times stronger than Hercules. Hercules shouldn't be able to cause Hulk a nose bleed no matter how much Hulk is holding back. So the only logical conclusion is that the measurement of 1 herc is a number that Pak pulled out of his butt and that does not hold with his other portrayals of Hulk.Is a WRONG number!
Now don't even get me started on that wishing well stuff because all of that crap is as convoluted as Pak's numbers [/B]
This is what I am trying to tell you. Since the Hulk held back so much during the WW Hulk campaign, he kept himself on the level of characters within Hercules' weight class, or he would have caused senseless deaths. Now since the Hulk on panel was proven not to be a murderer this is exactly why he did that. During that very same campaign, when he went up against the X-Men it specifically stated that his hide had become tougher to cut by Wolverine, and that was due to his increased strength. It is later reinforced when he completely no sells Arm'Cheddon, Bi-Beast, and Wendigo's assault due to his increase in strength. All of his stats dramatically increased during HOTM.
First off, Hulk got ko'ed by 133 hercs.
Second off, rao is playing smug when he's literally saying that an entire run who's sole purpose was to wank Hulk has Pak lying when he specifically went out of his way to make up a measurement system to wank Hulk. How does this work?
Third, he later did the same shit when he amped Wendigo and Bi Beast a thousand times and had normal Hulk defeat and kill them in a conflicting way sure, but the amp was established. Both characters Hulk really doesn't have wins over at normal power.
You could see the frustration in Pak's writing when he had shit like Cho saying "You mean he actually has to destroy a world for us to accept it?" Paraphrasing of course but the message is clear. Pak was going out of his way to try and one up everything Hulk did. He wasn't lying when he wrote the stupid shit he did. He was lying when he had to give Hulk a challenge and make people do good against him.
Not to mention Herc hitting him was in an event with much less freedom and context. Then Pak went ballistic. Also pis exists as well, and you're speaking about the definition of a character with fluctuating strength.