Originally posted by leonidas👆
@phil: seriously, the whole idea of using terms like that to define power levels is..crazy sh!t.
Anyway, once we got past skyfathers and into abstracts, the herald-levelers need a plot device to win [i.e. Surfer vs Aegis/Tenebrous] or can at best hurt them [i.e. Thor hurting Galactus]. Trans-levelers can more visibly rock them [i.e. Thanos blasting off Galactus], while skyfathers can go at it but eventually lose [i.e. Odin vs Galactus] or flat out be portrayed as vastly inferior [i.e. Odin and Celestials].
Overall, I think we can find a rough outline, but there are exceptions, of course.
Originally posted by leonidas
😂when i read something stupid, i condescend. when i read something i find itself to be condescending, i condescend. acting like you, or wherever you got your info from, is some sort of 'wellspring of irrefutable knowledge' is pretty damn ridiculous--and condescending. telling someone they are both right and wrong like you're the authority on this subject is also condescending.
but yeah, i was condescending. 👆
please though, go ahead and enlighten me and the rest of the forum and define 'galaxy level' powa! and its meaning.
as far as odin being premiere in that 'tier'? unknown, since he's never had a full on battle with zeus, so even that assumption may be faulty. we know zelia took down odin pretty easily at one point, so maybe she should have been considered the top? who knows. the definition of 'skyfather' is one thor himself has used in comics, on panel, when meeting other pantheon heads. so it isn't really open for interpretation.
wow such amazing mental gymnastics, i never not once said or even implied that that i have a "wellspring of irrefutable knowledge" shadowfyre said that skyfather was a title and not a term of power, which is not true, as the links i posted say otherwise, plus t ive seen the term used on every othercomicbook debate site as a term for power, as well as status. thus my sample size and "wellspring of irrefutable knowledge" is bigger and more widespread than yours 🙂 after all you yourself have said youve never seen the term used that way, when in fact it has. for years. 🙂 odin is the premier skyfather, based on on panel showings, hes head hancho. we base "skyfather level" based on odin because hes has the most feats of his tier. and just because odin lost to zelia doesnt make her top dog, EVERY character loses fights, thats just the nature of fiction, and action based fiction. hell superman koed himself flying into a wooden fence, that fence is now high herald, silver get whooped by a random alien spaceship, that ship is now the top herald, going by your logic.
Originally posted by PhilThe abstract tier is just so broad, though. An average Galactus represents the lower-end of the tier, cube beings(ie. Kubik and Shaper of Worlds) represent the middle of the tier, and upper-echelon Celestials/LT/Beyonders represent the higher-end of the tier.
👆Anyway, once we got past skyfathers and into abstracts, the herald-levelers need a plot device to win [i.e. Surfer vs Aegis/Tenebrous] or can at best hurt them [i.e. Thor hurting Galactus]. Trans-levelers can more visibly rock them [i.e. Thanos blasting off Galactus], while skyfathers can go at it but eventually lose [i.e. Odin vs Galactus] or flat out be portrayed as vastly inferior [i.e. Odin and Celestials].
Overall, I think we can find a rough outline, but there are exceptions, of course.
That's why Odin can do well against Galactus in an extended battle, but is laughably inferior to Celestials, for example.
If we're going for thoroughness, there should really be a "low/mid/high" abstract tier, like there is for heralds.
Originally posted by Galan007👆 yeah.
The abstract tier is just so broad, though. An average Galactus represents the lower-end of the tier. Cube beings(ie. Kubik and Shaper of Worlds) represent the middle of the tier, and upper-echelon Celestials/LT/Beyonders represent the higher-end of the tier.That's why Odin can do well against Galactus in an extended battle, but is laughably inferior to Celestials, for example.
Abstract tier is like the herald tier - there's low, middle and high, with significant space in between.
Galactus is the Hulk of the abstract tier though ["You don't want me sated!"] - he can take gangs of Celestials, or he can be headbutted by Odin, depending on how hungry he feels.
Originally posted by Phil👆
Galactus is the Hulk of the abstract tier though ["You don't want me sated!"] - he can take gangs of Celestials, or he can be headbutted by Odin, depending on how hungry he feels.
We saw as much when he fought the Mad Celestials after amping on 4 worlds. This ability was even more pronounced during The Black Celestial arc, when he was absorbing absolutely everything(time/space/matter/energy/etc.), as well as Celestials, like pieces of candy.
If he were ranked properly in an abstract tiers thread, there should be an asterisk next to his name for sure. Like you said, his power has no upper-end cap.
Originally posted by ghostman
wow such amazing mental gymnastics, i never not once said or even implied that that i have a "wellspring of irrefutable knowledge" shadowfyre said that skyfather was a title and not a term of power, which is not true, as the links i posted say otherwise, plus t ive seen the term used on every othercomicbook debate site as a term for power, as well as status. thus my sample size and "wellspring of irrefutable knowledge" is bigger and more widespread than yours 🙂 after all you yourself have said youve never seen the term used that way, when in fact it has. for years. 🙂 odin is the premier skyfather, based on on panel showings, hes head hancho. we base "skyfather level" based on odin because hes has the most feats of his tier. and just because odin lost to zelia doesnt make her top dog, EVERY character loses fights, thats just the nature of fiction, and action based fiction. hell superman koed himself flying into a wooden fence, that fence is now high herald, silver get whooped by a random alien spaceship, that ship is now the top herald, going by your logic.
you're acting like the links you posted are...canon or something. they are nothing more than random thoughts by other fans. and if the sample you're drawing from is full of a bunch of dummies (general term, not pointing anyone out in particular) then who gives a sh!t? i'll take one intelligent opinion over the opinion of a 100 morons.
as far as 'galaxy level' you've still not gone ahead and defined it i see....
and sure, odin IS generally viewed as the top of that tier, but his station is not definite, (jane thor>skyfather now?) and the term skyfather still technically refers to head of a pantheon. just so happens that WITH that position, comes a certain degree of power. but that 'power level' is pretty undefined at time and isn't always viewed the same in both universes. dc's odin is a skyfather and at one time he and all the other pantheons and their heads were scared sh!tless of darkseid. hell, ds killed several of them. yet here you're hard-pressed to find anyone that will say he's more powerful than thanos, who is demonstrably below odin. this delineation you and apparently others in other forums are striving for is pointless and nonsensical. as far as lowballing like you're trying to do to make your point--no sh!t characters lose. but superman ko'ing himself on a fence does not affect his standing overall at all. odin has never battled other skyfathers, he simply has far more appearances and hence more feats, and his position at the 'top' of this 'tier' reflects that, more than it reflects his power relative to other skyfathers--because we don't know how he stacks up relatively. except against zelia.
and if i've not heard, or rarely heard the term galaxy level--that's because it is rarely used around here. and there's a good reason for that.
Originally posted by ghostman
lets be honest here, the only reason you guys dont want skyfather to be galaxy level is because the opponents you claim superman has beaten and or harmed wouldnt be skyfather anymore.
agenda revealed. 👆
@galan: galactus really should have a tier to himself. i'm still not convinced he's an abstract--not by the strict definition of embodying a concept at least. i mean, were galactus to die, the universe wouldn't fill the vacuum to replace him as it would do for other abstract representations. he's a physical being still--i think. i know he has employed m-bodies in the past though, and i know he's been viewed differently through the eyes of different species, so....he really is a unique character in marvel. certainly his fluctuation in power level is as wide, or wider, than any characters' in marvel.
Originally posted by leonidas
you're acting like the links you posted are...canon or something. they are nothing more than random thoughts by other fans. and if the sample you're drawing from is full of a bunch of dummies (general term, not pointing anyone out in particular) then who gives a sh!t? i'll take one intelligent opinion over the opinion of a 100 morons.as far as 'galaxy level' you've still not gone ahead and defined it i see....
and sure, odin IS generally viewed as the top of that tier, but his station is not definite, (jane thor>skyfather now?) and the term skyfather still technically refers to head of a pantheon. just so happens that WITH that position, comes a certain degree of power. but that 'power level' is pretty undefined at time and isn't always viewed the same in both universes. dc's odin is a skyfather and at one time he and all the other pantheons and their heads were scared sh!tless of darkseid. hell, ds killed several of them. yet here you're hard-pressed to find anyone that will say he's more powerful than thanos, who is demonstrably below odin. this delineation you and apparently others in other forums are striving for is pointless and nonsensical. as far as lowballing like you're trying to do to make your point--no sh!t characters lose. but superman ko'ing himself on a fence does not affect his standing overall at all. odin has never battled other skyfathers, he simply has far more appearances and hence more feats, and his position at the 'top' of this 'tier' reflects that, more than it reflects his power relative to other skyfathers--because we don't know how he stacks up relatively. except against zelia.
and if i've not heard, or rarely heard the term galaxy level--that's because it is rarely used around here. and there's a good reason for that.
alright man, im just letting dudes know that skyfather is more than just a title 😮💨
Originally posted by Galan007
👆We saw as much when he fought the Mad Celestials after amping on 4 worlds. This ability was even more pronounced during The Black Celestial arc, when he was absorbing absolutely everything(time/space/matter/energy/etc.), as well as Celestials, like pieces of candy.
If he were ranked properly in an abstract tiers thread, there should be an asterisk next to his name for sure. Like you said, his power has no upper-end cap.
Yes, although I have noticed some wanting to peg down Galactus into a box. The variability in his powerset is part of the character and he is written according to what the story needs.
I also don't like the "herald" and "trans" tiers. When I hear the term herald I just think of the actual heralds of Galactus. I would prefer to use specific characters as benchmarks. So you have your Superman level beings. Then a few tiers from that you have Thanos. Then you have those characters that are above Thanos, but not quite actually cosmics themselves(like Sentry at full power). Then you just have the cosmics, low end cosmics or high end. Or somewhere in the middle. This way you don't need to take into account abstracts and stuff, since they just fall under the cosmic category. The low end of the cosmic scale has people that have powers that are galactic in scale and the high ends are obviously going to be universal or beyond. So I'd call Odin a low level cosmic. Lucifer Morningstar would be a high end cosmic.
Though instead of using Superman specifically you could just use terms like low end class 100's, high end class 100's, etc.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
True.I'd respect Batman a lot more if they just came out and said he was a God.
It's impossible to suspend disbelief with him otherwise.
Yep, which is why I laugh when I see say they don't like the character of Superman due to being too powerful, but they have no problems with Batman.
So where would you place "skyfathers" in general? Should for example Zeus be considered his equal despite his lack of feats? Someone mentioned CK controlling him and him knocking Galactus on his ass but iirc and correct me if Im wrong Zeus was amped. Other than a few godhead council meetings and a minor confrontation he had with Odin i dont really have much to go on. People use the owning of Hulk as a bench mark but plenty of trans tiers should be able to replicate said feat. Same could be said of elder gods..some cosmics etc
from all appearances, odin seems to consider zeus an equal or at least a near equal... i don't think you can place them 'generally'. i think you need to be more specific. around the level of odin i'd put beings like dormmamu or the watcher. the stranger would be below them but likely above thanos maybe, but his power can fluctuate pretty wildly. at times a watcher appears to maybe be above odin, but i think in generally they are close. mephisto is another who would be close imo, but slightly below odin and dormammu. that;s all just opinion based on my knowledge of the characters, and others may disagree. but i don't know any other way to place anyone, except for relative next to each other. shrug
Originally posted by leonidasAs is the case with Skyfathers: when I think of characters in the abstract tier, I think of their power--not necessarily their role/status. And by that definition, Galactus is in the abstract tier of power, on average.
@galan: galactus really should have a tier to himself. i'm still not convinced he's an abstract--not by the strict definition of embodying a concept at least. i mean, were galactus to die, the universe wouldn't fill the vacuum to replace him as it would do for other abstract representations. he's a physical being still--i think. i know he has employed m-bodies in the past though, and i know he's been viewed differently through the eyes of different species, so....he really is a unique character in marvel. certainly his fluctuation in power level is as wide, or wider, than any characters' in marvel.
I mean, LT isn't technically an abstract being either--though I still group him in that tier... Albeit at the upper-end of it. 😛
Originally posted by Galan007
As is the case with Skyfathers: when I think of characters in the abstract tier, I think of their power--not necessarily their role/status. And by that definition, Galactus is in the abstract tier of power, on average.I mean, LT isn't technically an abstract being either--though I still group him in that tier... Albeit at the upper-end of it. 😛
oh, i wasn't arguing galactus in that company at all--power-wise for sure he should be with the big boys--most of the time. 👆 and you're right about lt--he's another puzzle. i thought lt was said to have represented judgement at one point, across the mutliverse. but not sure he is the literal embodiment or not. i think i had this discussion once with mrm. trying to ferret out of the nature of lt and whether he was a true abstract or not. i guess now that i think about it, there are several that fit the non-abstract-abstract category: abraxas, shaper of worlds, phoenix, maybe eon? hell, even mephisto has been alluded to representing the concept of evil, but he's not an abstract in the technical sense. those are just off the top of my head. probably lots of others in there as well.... differentiating between 'tiers' is trick at best. not sure where the realm of 'skyfather' would give way to 'abstract' if that's how one wants to look at it. you'd need someone just beyond odin i guess. uatu maybe? i think abstract is the wrong term. maybe a 'cosmic' tier or, 'higher order cosmic'? shrug