Punisher vs Depowered Thor

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Just because you're a convict doesn't mean you're a good fighter. The fact that they felt they needed to team up on Frank tells you quite the opposite in fact. They were punks and he Punished them for it.

Thor on the other hand took out a squad of Shield's most highly trained fighters. And he did it with relative ease. Sorry, but Thor wins here. Punisher is awesome, but he can't contend with Thor.

Lol, they're prisoners, they weren't looking for a fair fight, they were trying to kill him, of course they would gang up on him. Even if they weren't that good the sheer numbers and tight space worked greatly in their advantage.

Frank took it to Daredevil, a guy who beats the hell out of ninja assassins and dozens of bikers in H2H. Thor is good but not that good.

Let's say Thor and Punusher swap places. Thor takes on those prisoners and Punisher takes on the SHIELD agents. How well do you think they do?

I think they both clear, except Thor beats up the prisoners with fewer injuries than what Frank sustained and that Frank clears the SHIELD agents but with more difficulty than Thor did.

Yeah, but what heppens if you put Thor against DD? I don't think depowered Thor can win that.

I look at it this way. I believe Frank can edge the win, but I also believe that he will need more time to recover from the fight. Because this is a guy who was tranq'd, tazered multiple times, then tortured and beaten, had a hole drilled in his foot, then dug a razor blade out of his own arm, took out a bunch of guys and got shot, and could still push past all of that to help DD take out some of the Irish thugs. So I think he can keep going long enough to take Thor down, but he will probably pass out the moment he finds a safe spot. I mean this guy literally refused to die despite getting shot in the head and flatlining for a bit.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Yeah, but what heppens if you put Thor against DD? I don't think depowered Thor can win that.

I actually think Thor would have more trouble with Frank than with DD. DD hits too much like a lightweight to properly take out Thor. Frank at least has a lot more oomph in his hits.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I look at it this way. I believe Frank can edge the win, but I also believe that he will need more time to recover from the fight. Because this is a guy who was tranq'd, tazered multiple times, then tortured and beaten, had a hole drilled in his foot, then dug a razor blade out of his own arm, took out a bunch of guys and got shot, and could still push past all of that to help DD take out some of the Irish thugs. So I think he can keep going long enough to take Thor down, but he will probably pass out the moment he finds a safe spot. I mean this guy literally refused to die despite getting shot in the head and flatlining for a bit.

So basically you're saying Frank's ferocity, grit, stubbornness and plain craziness can edge him a wn? Yeah I can agree to that.

It could go either way. Most likely Thor can pull the majority.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So basically you're saying Frank's ferocity, grit, stubbornness and plain craziness can edge him a wn? Yeah I can agree to that.

More like his insane willpower to just keep on trucking when he should be lying half dead in a hospital bed.

But I disagree that someone who can casually put their fist through a door, and knock a piece out, punches like a "lightweight". By the later episodes, Daredevil was even dropping the majority of the Hand guys with only a few blows each (and yes he also oneshots some), and they were clearly meant to be portrayed as being above average fodder. And he handled the Yakuza security without much hassle, without his suit, during his one outing with Elektra (even oneshots one or two there). So it isn't all dependent on the reinforced alloy gloves. Then there is his final fight with Punisher that shows he can knock Frank on his ass if he really decides to hit hard, and we see just how far he will go when he thinks Elektra is hurt.

Fact is that it being a Netflix R-rated show, they are going to make the fight scenes more gritty and extensive, and the fodder is going to be tougher (because based on feats, the average fodder in DD is tougher than most other shows). So we have to take that into account, and when we further see DD putting his fist through a door like that, this supports my stance IMO.

The only fight I can recall where he really had to lay into a few fodder to put them down was the long fight against the gang of bikers, but this was all still relatively shortly after having a bullet bounce off his skull, and engaging Frank in a series of extremely brutal scuffles, while still suffering the effects of the bullet to the head. Hell, Frank was flatout unconscious by the time Matt even took on the bikers, so it's a safe bet that DD was battered, exhausted and not at a 100%, so him having a bit of issues at that point is hardly a low showing. He had one or two tough Hand fights, but the guys who gave him a tougher fight came solo, so were likely some of the most skilled, and the one had to sneak attack and poison him in his own house to make it a fight, and still lost. And that was when Matt was still trying to get a handle on them hiding from his senses. Usually the biggest tool in his arsenal, which was suddenly rendered virtually useless.

Because, while a lot of people complained after season one, the vast majority I have spoken to myself thought Matt was far more capable in season 2. You are one of a minority of people I have encountered who had an issue with his striking season 2, and literally the only person I have encountered to call him a "lightweight".

Basically, if you are going to call him a "lightweight", by all means show a lightweight knocking around someone as large and strong as Wilson Fisk, or causing visible pain to someone as tough as Frank. Because, based on how the two have been portrayed, someone who hits like a "lightweight" wouldn't even give them a second's pause.

Frank caves his face in

Punisher wrecks him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
More like his insane willpower to just keep on trucking when he should be lying half dead in a hospital bed.

But I disagree that someone who can casually put their fist through a door, and knock a piece out, punches like a "lightweight". By the later episodes, Daredevil was even dropping the majority of the Hand guys with only a few blows each (and yes he also oneshots some), and they were clearly meant to be portrayed as being above average fodder. And he handled the Yakuza security without much hassle, without his suit, during his one outing with Elektra (even oneshots one or two there). So it isn't all dependent on the reinforced alloy gloves. Then there is his final fight with Punisher that shows he can knock Frank on his ass if he really decides to hit hard, and we see just how far he will go when he thinks Elektra is hurt.

Fact is that it being a Netflix R-rated show, they are going to make the fight scenes more gritty and extensive, and the fodder is going to be tougher (because based on feats, the average fodder in DD is tougher than most other shows). So we have to take that into account, and when we further see DD putting his fist through a door like that, this supports my stance IMO.

The only fight I can recall where he really had to lay into a few fodder to put them down was the long fight against the gang of bikers, but this was all still relatively shortly after having a bullet bounce off his skull, and engaging Frank in a series of extremely brutal scuffles, while still suffering the effects of the bullet to the head. Hell, Frank was flatout unconscious by the time Matt even took on the bikers, so it's a safe bet that DD was battered, exhausted and not at a 100%, so him having a bit of issues at that point is hardly a low showing. He had one or two tough Hand fights, but the guys who gave him a tougher fight came solo, so were likely some of the most skilled, and the one had to sneak attack and poison him in his own house to make it a fight, and still lost. And that was when Matt was still trying to get a handle on them hiding from his senses. Usually the biggest tool in his arsenal, which was suddenly rendered virtually useless.

Because, while a lot of people complained after season one, the vast majority I have spoken to myself thought Matt was far more capable in season 2. You are one of a minority of people I have encountered who had an issue with his striking season 2, and literally the only person I have encountered to call him a "lightweight".

Basically, if you are going to call him a "lightweight", by all means show a lightweight knocking around someone as large and strong as Wilson Fisk, or causing visible pain to someone as tough as Frank. Because, based on how the two have been portrayed, someone who hits like a "lightweight" wouldn't even give them a second's pause.

I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow. Just want to address the final fight between DD and Punisher. Remember that at that point, Punisher had a drill through his foot, was tortured and beat up, got into a prison fight where he sustained no small amount of injury, got beat up by the guards, got beat up by Kingpin. Plus he wasn't really that into fighting DD, seemed more out of frustration. You can tell by how easily he gave up. So that last fight is not really a good indication of how he matches up to DD.

A better fight would be their first, in which Punisher almost knocked out DD and could have finished the fight if he didn't walk away.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow. Just want to address the final fight between DD and Punisher. Remember that at that point, Punisher had a drill through his foot, was tortured and beat up, got into a prison fight where he sustained no small amount of injury, got beat up by the guards, got beat up by Kingpin. Plus he wasn't really that into fighting DD, seemed more out of frustration. You can tell by how easily he gave up. So that last fight is not really a good indication of how he matches up to DD.

A better fight would be their first, in which Punisher almost knocked out DD and could have finished the fight if he didn't walk away.

A couple of things on that. Frank had already been out of jail for a bit and had been tracking those other guys. And this was after spending a bit of time in the actual hospital, recovering from the Irish torture. You can see how some of the bruising on his face had progressed and healed a bit. And he moved freely and without issues. And Matt had been involved in a bunch of fights as well, including an unexpected encounter where Nobu caught him off guard and gave him a hard beating, and getting shot in the shoulder with a highly poisonous arrow. So if Frank had some wear on him, so did Matt. And Frank was the one to attack Matt, with Matt explicitly stating that he didn't want to fight Frank, yet he still soaked up his blows and knocked him down. So there wasn't much difference in their physical condition or level of motivation.

And he knocked Matt down and visibly stunned him, but Matt was not out. We've seen time and time again that Matt can turn the tables quickly when he looks like he is out for the count, like when he got torn to shreds by Nobu, took a massive beating from Fisk and got slammed through a desk, only to take out the one goon when Fisk turned his back, and escape. So Frank had the advantage there, but only moments later Matt had the edge and Frank was forced to pull a gun, so not really the best example either. To me, the whole point of all their encounters was to show that they are so close in overall ability that the result of one of their fights was basically a coin toss.

Fact is, if you want to consider DD a "lightweight", then we have to assume the a big chunk of the criminals and even Hand ninjas have glass jaws and glass bones for Matt to be able to take them out easily. But not only that, that Fisk, Nobu, Stick and Castle suddenly also develop glass jaws for Matt's hits to affect them like they do. But beyond that, also assume that Karen Page, despite being portrayed as highly intelligent, lives in Hell's Kitchen, and has had hitmen sent after her, chose to have some shitty door that any lightweight could literally tear through. Which stinks to me of heaps of PIS.

So I rather choose to take it into the context of it being an R-rated Netflix show, where they have more opportunity to have extensive, violent action scenes they choose to take advantage of, and interpret the showings to be that some fodder is simply tougher on occasion than others. Because we know that not all humans are equal in all areas. Some can just take a hit better than others, and not all movie/tv fodder are equal across the board.

But hey, you are completely entitled to your opinion and your interpretation on things. I am not the show writer and can't claim anything as concrete fact, so all I can do is interpret things to the best of my ability. I just very strongly disagree, and I think that you will find a lot of others do also.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Frank smashed a dozen convicts in H2H and got the better of Daredevil on one occassion and stalemated him in others. Thor goes down after a good fight.

Convicts that took on Punisher Vs Shield Agents that took on a depowered Thor. I wonder who will make that Vs Thread 🙄

Originally posted by Igniz
Convicts that took on Punisher Vs Shield Agents that took on a depowered Thor. I wonder who will make that Vs Thread 🙄

The better question is Daredevil vs SHIELD agents. I wonder who would win that.

Spoiler:
Daredevil

Originally posted by Psychotron
The better question is Daredevil vs SHIELD agents. I wonder who would win that.

Spoiler:
Daredevil

True about DD. But those Shield Agents would put up a better fight than a bunch of Convicts. I mean after all, Shield Agents are trained to takedown Untrained Convicts 😛

I seriously want to see some kind of Defenders/AoS crossover at some point, but I guess it would be kind of hard to do. Depending on which way it goes, they'd either have to ramp up the violence for the Agents, or tone it down for the Netflix people. I don't expect Thor or IM or Hulk etc. to ever pitch up, but I would love to see some of the SHIELD guys kick ass side by side with Daredevil, Luke Cage etc.

Originally posted by Igniz
True about DD. But those Shield Agents would put up a better fight than a bunch of Convicts. I mean after all, Shield Agents are trained to takedown Untrained Convicts 😛

Okay, but the convicts weren't Frank's only feat. He fought DD several times, and got the better of him once or twice. Thor's going down.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Okay, but the convicts weren't Frank's only feat. He fought DD several times, and got the better of him once or twice. Thor's going down.

I don't think its that easy to say Punisher will beat depowered Thor based on because Frank took on DD several times. I would probably say depowered Thor might repeat what Frank did in his fight with Daredevil. Especially Agent Phil Coulson worded out that depowered Thor treated his highly trained Shield Agents like minimum waged mall cops.

YouTube video

Frank beats the shit out of Thor. One statement from Coulson and somehow Thor is able to beat someone who actually manhandled Daredevil in straight up fight?

GTFO

Originally posted by Igniz
I don't think its that easy to say Punisher will beat depowered Thor based on because Frank took on DD several times. I would probably say depowered Thor might repeat what Frank did in his fight with Daredevil. Especially Agent Phil Coulson worded out that depowered Thor treated his highly trained Shield Agents like minimum waged mall cops.

YouTube video

No way, DP Thor doesn't have the feats to take on Daredevil in H2H.