Originally posted by abhilegendFrank Didn't manhandle Daredevil; Daredevil was caught by surprise the first fight. He then won every subsequent fight against Frank.
Frank beats the shit out of Thor. One statement from Coulson and somehow Thor is able to beat someone who actually manhandled Daredevil in straight up fight?GTFO
Thor is bigger, stronger, and has thousands of years fighting experience. Unless you give Frank some weapons he's not winning this.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Frank Didn't manhandle Daredevil; Daredevil was caught by surprise the first fight. He then won every subsequent fight against Frank.
I counted it as even myself.
Frank got the leg up during their first scuffle. 1 for Frank
Daredevil then got the edge a bit later, forcing Frank to pull a gun. 1 for Matt
Then I give them watertower fight to Frank because, despite Matt sneak attacking him, Frank got the last hit in through that window and them taking the fall, before the concussion started kicking in again for Matt. So I'd say Frank came out looking better there.
That rooftop fight is kind of vague, because both were massively beat up and exhausted, and there were a bunch of elements and distractions, like that thug, the bikers, the gun Frank had, the chain etc. so that one kind of went back and forth the whole time, with things being interrupted by the bikers. So hard to claim a winner there IMO.
And in the last fight, when both were in relatively ok shape, Matt seemed to have the edge again, making it 2 for Matt as well.
Like I mentioned before, to me it seemed that the writers wanted them to look close enough in fighting ability that any encounter could go either way.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerNope. Frank was F***ed up at the end of the second fight; could barely walk. Daredevil got up and was smiling. He was going to whoop Frank's ass. The only reason he didn't was because his senses started flipping out again. Then, every fight after DD won. DD won the following rooftop fight, and he had an unloaded gun taped to one hand. He then carried Frank to the elevator after whooping his ass.
Then I give them watertower fight to Frank because, despite Matt sneak attacking him, Frank got the last hit in through that window and them taking the fall, before the concussion started kicking in again for Matt. So I'd say Frank came out looking better there.
Make no mistake, the one and only fight that Frank looked better in any way was their first encounter. And that's only because DD had beat him down to the ground and Frank resorted to guns.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Nope. Frank was F***ed up at the end of the second fight; could barely walk. Daredevil got up and was smiling. He was going to whoop Frank's ass. The only reason he didn't was because his senses started flipping out again.
I rechecked, and yeah, Frank was bloody and limping, and Matt was smiling before his senses started f****** about again, but Matt didn't exactly get up too quickly there himself after they dropped through that window, and spat out a mouthful of blood before adopting the previously mentioned smile. Guess it is more of a draw then, as both were still on their feet when DD's senses faded out.
And I still think that rooftop fight had too much going on. Matt initially dropped Frank after Frank shot the thug, but then left him to go check on the guy, then tried to stop Frank again, only to have Punisher beat him back with his gun long enough to get a shot off, before Matt choked him with the chain and KO'd him against the wall. But both were heavily distracted at multiple points during that encounter.
DD might look a bit more skilled at first glance, due to his fighting style, but Frank was every bit as effective IMO. They just went about things in a different way. For example, where DD is likely to use some elaborate takedown, or some hard spinning kick or something, Frank is more likely to bullrush someone, or headbutt them unconscious. Two very different approaches, but both equally effective.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Frank Didn't manhandle Daredevil; Daredevil was caught by surprise the first fight.
It was Frank who was suckershotted.
He then won every subsequent fight against Frank.
No, he didn't. Frank floored him again and was winning until he was shot by a sniper and fell nearly 50 feet by an ambush from DD again.
Frank was flat out manhandling him again there.
Thor is bigger, stronger, and has thousands of years fighting experience. Unless you give Frank some weapons he's not winning this.
BS. Frank caves his head in.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Nope. Frank was F***ed up at the end of the second fight; could barely walk.
Because he was shot by a sniper. Not because Matt beat him.
Daredevil got up and was smiling. He was going to whoop Frank's ass. The only reason he didn't was because his senses started flipping out again. Then, every fight after DD won. DD won the following rooftop fight, and he had an unloaded gun taped to one hand. He then carried Frank to the elevator after whooping his ass.
Make no mistake, the one and only fight that Frank looked better in any way was their first encounter. And that's only because DD had beat him down to the ground and Frank resorted to guns.
Did you watch some Bizarro version of Daredevil? Because this is just flat out lying.
Originally posted by abhilegendNo, I watched the show. Daredevil was better. He flat out punked Punisher in their last fight too. So much so that he threw a hissy fit.
Because he was shot by a sniper. Not because Matt beat him.Did you watch some Bizarro version of Daredevil? Because this is just flat out lying.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
No, I watched the show. Daredevil was better. He flat out punked Punisher in their last fight too. So much so that he threw a hissy fit.
Here is rundown of every fight they had with video links.
[quote] True, but every blow Frank landed seemed to be more damaging. In the first part of the first fight, Frank shrugs off everything DD hits him with, then lands three blows of his own and leaves DD face down in a heap coughing up blood for a solid ten seconds. If Frank had pressed the advantage instead of just walking off, DD would have been in big trouble. This is also in spite of DD opening the fight with a surprise attack.
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The first fight had Frank on his back a couple of times and Matt admitted he had been careless.
In the second part of that first fight (again, after Frank had willingly surrendered a position of great advantage), DD does floor Frank. But we don't know what would have happened if Castle had continued to fight h2h instead of opting to end it immediately with his gun. Matt's admission of carelessness was in regards to not sensing that Castle was packing the firearm rather than the h2h section.
DD definitely lands more hits and comes across as more skilled in h2h in that first fight overall, but to me they come across as in the same ballpark at least. Of the two, Frank is the one who does the most damage and would have had a huge advantage if he had pressed it rather than walking away.
Here's the fight for anyone who hasn't seen it incidentally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0aa8Zz0rwk
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In the second fight, Matt was suffering form an inner-ear problem and was on the verge of beating Frank until he went deaf.
There was no indication that his periods of deafness had any effect on the fight until the very end.
I actually think this fight portrays them very much as peers. Again, Matt opens up with a big surprise attack, which knocks Frank off a fairly sizeable fall. He then opens up with the billy club and lands several big shots with that thing (which was more than capable of a one-shot KO against normal guys throughout the season). Frank then disarms Matt and lands some shots of his own. When the police start opening fire, Frank again seems to have a momentary advantage, with DD down, disarmed and Castle standing over him with DD's own weapon.
They continue to fight fairly evenly as the police snipers fire at them. Even after Castle gets shot, there doesn't seem to be much to separate them IMHO. After the fall through the window, Matt seems in better shape - but then, he is wearing full on body armour and he hadn't just been shot by a police sniper! It's also worth pointing out that Matt's body armour was pretty effective at deflecting shots to the head (see the fight with Fisk in season 1), whereas Castle was taking billy club shots to the dome with no protection at all.
I really don't see much in that fight that suggests a bigger gap than there is between Widow and Hawkeye.
Again, here is the fight for anyone wishing to refresh their memory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WgHUGLNnKo
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The third fight had Daredevil knocking him out clean
There's nothing clean about that knock out.
Fight starts with DD dump tackling Punisher and pistol whipping him into a pulp while Castle is more concerned with shooting Grotto and makes no attempt to defend himself.
Second part of the fight starts with DD sucker attacking Castle with a chain to the back. Despite that disadvantage, Castle fights his way back up and knocks DD flat on his back with the butt of his gun. Once again, Frank walks away here from a hugely advantageous position. Matt is flat on his back and may even briefly be out cold. He stays down for well over half a minute of the episode, although this time involves a scene cut so may not be representative. Either way, he's down long enough for Castle to walk away and line up a shot.
Third and final part of the fight starts with DD using a wrench to club Frank over the back of the head while his attention is elsewhere (he loves a sucker shot does our Matt!). He then immediately follows up with a chain attack, presses the advantage and uses the chain to choke Castle out.
None of that screams "clean" win to me at all. The second part of the fight is probably the closest they get to a proper stand-up exchange, and it's Frank who comes out looking better.
Of course, both are in shitty shape before this fight even starts, so that has to be remembered.
Again, here's the scene (including the awesome Ennis dialogue):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ
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and their fourth fight ended with Frank giving up.
DD definitely looks better here, no excuses. But the fight was hardly conclusive, and it's unclear how much of Frank's surrender was just down to him suckering DD to set up the shove off the boat a few seconds later.
I can't actually find this scene on youtube, which possibly reflects the fact that it was more of a brief scuffle than a real fight.
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I thought it was pretty clear Daredevil was more skilled. Hawkeye and Widow were more comparable in terms of skill. It seemed like it could have gone the other way just as easily.
In terms of pure fighting technique, sure, DD definitely seems more skilled. But a breakdown of the fights above highlights that Frank wilingly surrendered hugely advantageous positions in two of the three main fights, and seemed to fight very evenly in the second one despite Matt starting with a big sucker shot, using a weapon (not to mention armour), and Frank being shot by a sniper during the fight.
Overall, I think Frank's showings vs DD are more impressive than Hawkeye's vs Widow. Maybe a rematch in Civil War will change that.
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Aside from all that, while we don't know the ins and outs, going by Widow's description of how they met, Hawkeye tracked her down when she was an enemy of SHIELD and had the opportunity to kill her and didn't.
Well I agree that Hawkeye would be a massive favourite in the third scenario here, which seems to be the closest equivalent to the description of that encounter.[/quote
Here is the rundown of every fight they had.
[quote author=Liam Gallaghers Unibrow link=topic=9505.msg200099#msg200099 date=1458657447]
[quote author=AP link=topic=9505.msg200071#msg200071 date=1458648139]
For every 5-6 hits DD landed, Frank seemed to only land one. [/quote]
True, but every blow Frank landed seemed to be more damaging. In the first part of the first fight, Frank shrugs off everything DD hits him with, then lands three blows of his own and leaves DD face down in a heap coughing up blood for a solid ten seconds. If Frank had pressed the advantage instead of just walking off, DD would have been in big trouble. This is also in spite of DD opening the fight with a surprise attack.
The first fight had Frank on his back a couple of times and Matt admitted he had been careless.
In the second part of that first fight (again, after Frank had willingly surrendered a position of great advantage), DD does floor Frank. But we don't know what would have happened if Castle had continued to fight h2h instead of opting to end it immediately with his gun. Matt's admission of carelessness was in regards to not sensing that Castle was packing the firearm rather than the h2h section.
DD definitely lands more hits and comes across as more skilled in h2h in that first fight overall, but to me they come across as in the same ballpark at least. Of the two, Frank is the one who does the most damage and would have had a huge advantage if he had pressed it rather than walking away.
Here's the fight for anyone who hasn't seen it incidentally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0aa8Zz0rwk
In the second fight, Matt was suffering form an inner-ear problem and was on the verge of beating Frank until he went deaf.
There was no indication that his periods of deafness had any effect on the fight until the very end.
I actually think this fight portrays them very much as peers. Again, Matt opens up with a big surprise attack, which knocks Frank off a fairly sizeable fall. He then opens up with the billy club and lands several big shots with that thing (which was more than capable of a one-shot KO against normal guys throughout the season). Frank then disarms Matt and lands some shots of his own. When the police start opening fire, Frank again seems to have a momentary advantage, with DD down, disarmed and Castle standing over him with DD's own weapon.
They continue to fight fairly evenly as the police snipers fire at them. Even after Castle gets shot, there doesn't seem to be much to separate them IMHO. After the fall through the window, Matt seems in better shape - but then, he is wearing full on body armour and he hadn't just been shot by a police sniper! It's also worth pointing out that Matt's body armour was pretty effective at deflecting shots to the head (see the fight with Fisk in season 1), whereas Castle was taking billy club shots to the dome with no protection at all.
I really don't see much in that fight that suggests a bigger gap than there is between Widow and Hawkeye.
Again, here is the fight for anyone wishing to refresh their memory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WgHUGLNnKo
The third fight had Daredevil knocking him out clean
There's nothing clean about that knock out.
Fight starts with DD dump tackling Punisher and pistol whipping him into a pulp while Castle is more concerned with shooting Grotto and makes no attempt to defend himself.
Second part of the fight starts with DD sucker attacking Castle with a chain to the back. Despite that disadvantage, Castle fights his way back up and knocks DD flat on his back with the butt of his gun. Once again, Frank walks away here from a hugely advantageous position. Matt is flat on his back and may even briefly be out cold. He stays down for well over half a minute of the episode, although this time involves a scene cut so may not be representative. Either way, he's down long enough for Castle to walk away and line up a shot.
Third and final part of the fight starts with DD using a wrench to club Frank over the back of the head while his attention is elsewhere (he loves a sucker shot does our Matt!). He then immediately follows up with a chain attack, presses the advantage and uses the chain to choke Castle out.
None of that screams "clean" win to me at all. The second part of the fight is probably the closest they get to a proper stand-up exchange, and it's Frank who comes out looking better.
Of course, both are in shitty shape before this fight even starts, so that has to be remembered.
Again, here's the scene (including the awesome Ennis dialogue):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ
and their fourth fight ended with Frank giving up.
DD definitely looks better here, no excuses. But the fight was hardly conclusive, and it's unclear how much of Frank's surrender was just down to him suckering DD to set up the shove off the boat a few seconds later.
I can't actually find this scene on youtube, which possibly reflects the fact that it was more of a brief scuffle than a real fight.
I thought it was pretty clear Daredevil was more skilled. Hawkeye and Widow were more comparable in terms of skill. It seemed like it could have gone the other way just as easily.
In terms of pure fighting technique, sure, DD definitely seems more skilled. But a breakdown of the fights above highlights that Frank wilingly surrendered hugely advantageous positions in two of the three main fights, and seemed to fight very evenly in the second one despite Matt starting with a big sucker shot, using a weapon (not to mention armour), and Frank being shot by a sniper during the fight.
Overall, I think Frank's showings vs DD are more impressive than Hawkeye's vs Widow. Maybe a rematch in Civil War will change that.
Aside from all that, while we don't know the ins and outs, going by Widow's description of how they met, Hawkeye tracked her down when she was an enemy of SHIELD and had the opportunity to kill her and didn't.
Well I agree that Hawkeye would be a massive favourite in the third scenario here, which seems to be the closest equivalent to the description of that encounter.
Cheers.
[/quote]
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Wall of text much? Regardless, Thor wins.I love John Bernthal's Punisher, but he ain't winning a straight up H2H fight with no weapons.
I'm giving a full rundown of each fight as you seem to live in Bizarro world.
BS, Daredevil would smoke Thor in seconds. Thor doesn't has any chance to win this.
Originally posted by abhilegendI don't need a rundown from you. I watched the show myself, thanks. Thor is a warrior with thousands of years of training. He displayed this by easily taking down Shield's most trained agents without any weapons of his own. He's bigger, stronger and a more experienced fighter than Frank is.
I'm giving a full rundown of each fight as you seem to live in Bizarro world.BS, Daredevil would smoke Thor in seconds. Thor doesn't has any chance to win this.
Could Frank win? Yes, if you give him weapons I could see him winning some. But other than that? Nope.
Originally posted by abhilegendDidn't DD handily win their fight on the boat? Like flat out beat the shit out of him a force him to stay down?
Because he was shot by a sniper. Not because Matt beat him.Did you watch some Bizarro version of Daredevil? Because this is just flat out lying.
The first fight was a tie. Yes, Frank handily won round one. Then DD came back and beat him in round two forcing him to pull a gun.
The second battle was a tie since neither won before Matts senses kicked in. DD looked better, but Frank got shot in the arm, so this one was also a tie.
Their third fight went to DD. You keep saying sucker shot, but Castle was aware of DDs presence. It's his own idiot fault he didn't defend, not Murdocks. Plus, Murdock was the one at a disadvantage, not Castle. The dudes fists were duct taped to a chain and pistol. This gimps the hell out of his normal fighting style.
DD has 2/4 fights, and the other 2 were ties.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
I don't need a rundown from you. I watched the show myself, thanks. Thor is a warrior with thousands of years of training. He displayed this by easily taking down Shield's most trained agents without any weapons of his own. He's bigger, stronger and a more experienced fighter than Frank is.Could Frank win? Yes, if you give him weapons I could see him winning some. But other than that? Nope.
"Thor is this and this and that. I love punisher but he loses. "
That's not how it works. Go watch the show again.
Originally posted by abhilegendI don't need to watch the show again.
You're like a broken clock now."Thor is this and this and that. I love punisher but he loses. "
That's not how it works. Go watch the show again.
Look, just because you're a major butthurt Superman fanboy; it's okay man. Just cause Batfleck absolutely trashed Superman doesn't mean that you have to come here and take out all your frustration on Thor. He wins, plain and simple.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Didn't DD handily win their fight on the boat? Like flat out beat the shit out of him a force him to stay down?
No, it was a feint from Frank to push Matt out of the boat.
The first fight was a tie. Yes, Frank handily won round one. Then DD came back and beat him in round two forcing him to pull a gun.
Because Matt again attacked him from behind.
The second battle was a tie since neither won before Matts senses kicked in. DD looked better, but Frank got shot in the arm, so this one was also a tie.
Huh? Frank again had Matt down at one point before he was shot. How's that a tie?
Their third fight went to DD. You keep saying sucker shot, but Castle was aware of DDs presence. It's his own idiot fault he didn't defend, not Murdocks. Plus, Murdock was the one at a disadvantage, not Castle. The dudes fists were duct taped to a chain and pistol. This gimps the hell out of his normal fighting style.
Matt started with a chain to the back of his head and started wailing on him. Frank soaked it all and flattened Matt again who was down for enough time to Frank to set up his gun and then Matt again cheapshotted him with a wrench to the back of his head and choked him out by the chain. Which wouldn't be possible if he hadn't had a chain.
And he wasn't gimped. He fought like 20 thugs right after that.
Frank wasn't there to fight Matt. If it was, he could've killed him several times.
DD has 2/4 fights, and the other 2 were ties.
Not sure where you get that.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
I don't need to watch the show again.Look, just because you're a major butthurt Superman fanboy; it's okay man. Just cause Batfleck absolutely trashed Superman doesn't mean that you have to come here and take out all your frustration on Thor. He wins, plain and simple.
What kind of troll logic is that?