Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So you're saying he can outthink the AI on the fly, not only the A.I. but Tony Stark and AI while mid fight... yeah, no.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. A lot of what happens when in the middle of a fight isn't thinking so much as it is instinct.
Plus the way AI works is that it needs to study fight patterns before it can counter it. So if Cap suddenly changes his fight pattern or style then the AI will need some moments to analyze it before countering. Once it has countered then it will again fall on Cap whether he can change his fight pattern
Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, that's what I'm saying. A lot of what happens when in the middle of a fight isn't thinking so much as it is instinct.Plus the way AI works is that it needs to study fight patterns before it can counter it. So if Cap suddenly changes his fight pattern or style then the AI will need some moments to analyze it before countering. Once it has countered then it will again fall on Cap whether he can change his fight pattern
Okay, you're not understanding some basic things here. Both the A.I./Stark are EXPONENTIALLY smarter than Cap. Not only are they smarter, but they can process information, again, exponentially faster. So what happens then? Any Cap would try a "new" technique, Starks and the AI would immediately start to process that info, and add it to the other info it's been compiling. These things would happen in micro seconds, formulas would be spit out non stop. To even think Cap can think faster and quicker than Stark or the A.I. is simply laughable. He'd never be able to keep up with and outthink the A.I and stark
Ummm it already would know every single MA form pretty much on earth or close to all. So it would already have most every move in its banks already. Then it would simply study what Cap is doing and adjust. Point is, this studying would happen exponentially faster than Cap can do and it would just continue to study as the fight goes on. No way it does adjust better than Cap. No way, no how
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay, you're not understanding some basic things here. Both the A.I./Stark are EXPONENTIALLY smarter than Cap. Not only are they smarter, but they can process information, again, exponentially faster. So what happens then? Any Cap would try a "new" technique, Starks and the AI would immediately start to process that info, and add it to the other info it's been compiling. These things would happen in micro seconds, formulas would be spit out non stop. To even think Cap can think faster and quicker than Stark or the A.I. is simply laughable. He'd never be able to keep up with and outthink the A.I and stark
Tell me honestly KT, have you ever been in an actual fight? Not a sparring match, not even a competition where you rest between rounds and have time to recuperate. But an actual fight where someone was really trying to mess you up?
Because if you have then you'll know there is almost no time to actually "think" while defending against blows and throwing out some of your own. It mostly boils down to fighting instinct, muscle memory and skill, and physical stats. Does intelligence play a factor? Sure it can, but it won't be the kind of intelligence that allows people to be mathemtical geniuses or physicists.
Tony being an engineering/technology genius does not make him a fighting genius. Captain America on the other hand has proven multiple times that he's the smartest fighter among the Avengers. Why do you think he's the one who calls the plays and strategies?
Further, the AI can memorize all the martial arts moves it wants but it won't be able to always predict the combination the moves will be thrown. It can memorize a jab, hook and cross but it won't know whether Cap will throw a jab ,hook and cross... or a jab, cross, hook... or a jab jab cross... or a hook cross hook... etc.
The only way AI can predict the combinations is by watching Cap fight and learning Cap's patterns. But in order to do that it will need time to observe Cap, which means there will be a lag where it doesn't know what Cap is doing. Then once the AI adapts, Cap can negate it by changing his pattern. Adapting to the AI. We do it all the time when we play video games. The AI adapts to our fighting techniques then we adapt to the AI.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Tell me honestly KT, have you ever been in an actual fight? Not a sparring match, not even a competition where you rest between rounds and have time to recuperate. But an actual fight where someone was really trying to mess you up?Because if you have then you'll know there is almost no time to actually "think" while defending against blows and throwing out some of your own. It mostly boils down to fighting instinct, muscle memory and skill, and physical stats. Does intelligence play a factor? Sure it can, but it won't be the kind of intelligence that allows people to be mathemtical geniuses or physicists.
Tony being an engineering/technology genius does not make him a fighting genius. Captain America on the other hand has proven multiple times that he's the smartest fighter among the Avengers. Why do you think he's the one who calls the plays and strategies?
Further, the AI can memorize all the martial arts moves it wants but it won't be able to always predict the combination the moves will be thrown. It can memorize a jab, hook and cross but it won't know whether Cap will throw a jab ,hook and cross... or a jab, cross, hook... or a jab jab cross... or a hook cross hook... etc.
The only way AI can predict the combinations is by watching Cap fight and learning Cap's patterns. But in order to do that it will need time to observe Cap, which means there will be a lag where it doesn't know what Cap is doing. Then once the AI adapts, Cap can negate it by changing his pattern. Adapting to the AI. We do it all the time when we play video games. The AI adapts to our fighting techniques then we adapt to the AI.
👆 👆
Originally posted by FrothByte
Tell me honestly KT, have you ever been in an actual fight? Not a sparring match, not even a competition where you rest between rounds and have time to recuperate. But an actual fight where someone was really trying to mess you up?Because if you have then you'll know there is almost no time to actually "think" while defending against blows and throwing out some of your own. It mostly boils down to fighting instinct, muscle memory and skill, and physical stats. Does intelligence play a factor? Sure it can, but it won't be the kind of intelligence that allows people to be mathemtical geniuses or physicists.
Tony being an engineering/technology genius does not make him a fighting genius. Captain America on the other hand has proven multiple times that he's the smartest fighter among the Avengers. Why do you think he's the one who calls the plays and strategies?
Further, the AI can memorize all the martial arts moves it wants but it won't be able to always predict the combination the moves will be thrown. It can memorize a jab, hook and cross but it won't know whether Cap will throw a jab ,hook and cross... or a jab, cross, hook... or a jab jab cross... or a hook cross hook... etc.
The only way AI can predict the combinations is by watching Cap fight and learning Cap's patterns. But in order to do that it will need time to observe Cap, which means there will be a lag where it doesn't know what Cap is doing. Then once the AI adapts, Cap can negate it by changing his pattern. Adapting to the AI. We do it all the time when we play video games. The AI adapts to our fighting techniques then we adapt to the AI.
I hate these types of conversations with you Froth, because each and every time you make it clear you've never been in a fight. Yes Froth, boxing in my youth and training in BJJ for a time is exactly where I'm coming from, and why I'm saying what I'm saying. Combine that, with numerous street fights and I know exactly how a fight goes. You literally have no clue what you're talking about, and what the specifics I'm talking about mean. I don't know if its that you don't know diddly about fighting or too dense to understand the concepts we're talking about.
Think about what you're saying here, just think for a second. You act like knowing every single MA form and techniques means little, and why you say; well because a fight is chaotic or he can switch tactics. WTF. Jesus Froth. If you know every single MA expertly, and studied every technique. Imagine that kind of knowledge at your disposal. Then imagine yourself in a fight, you would be able to pick up the slightest of movements to know when a punch is coming and from what angle. Any adjustment in form or technique would already be know. Do you think because Cap switches from being the KO boxer, to Judo.. to TKW that this is somehow going to surprise anybody? You've already processed it. In real life it would equate to the same thing only you're also bigger, stronger, more durable, more striking force blah blah. It's an epic stomp. To not understand how an AI would compensate for anything Cap would try and instantly do so and know what is happening is mindboggling.
Your analogy was laughable. No, imagine playing a video game specifically designed to do its very best to beat you. Like the super computer designed to play chess, but even more so. That is so far removed from a normal video game it's not even funny. Forget hard mode on video game, we're talking exponentially worse. Those games are meant to be beat, they want you to beat it so you'll go buy another. They are trying to make you fail at every turn learning and adapting each time to make you lose.
To even think your post and analogy got a thumbs up is comical.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I hate these types of conversations with you Froth, because each and every time you make it clear you've never been in a fight. Yes Froth, boxing in my youth and training in BJJ for a time is exactly where I'm coming from, and why I'm saying what I'm saying. Combine that, with numerous street fights and I know exactly how a fight goes. You literally have no clue what you're talking about, and what the specifics I'm talking about mean. I don't know if its that you don't know diddly about fighting or too dense to understand the concepts we're talking about.Think about what you're saying here, just think for a second. You act like knowing every single MA form and techniques means little, and why you say; well because a fight is chaotic or he can switch tactics. WTF. Jesus Froth. If you know every single MA expertly, and studied every technique. Imagine that kind of knowledge at your disposal. Then imagine yourself in a fight, you would be able to pick up the slightest of movements to know when a punch is coming and from what angle. Any adjustment in form or technique would already be know. Do you think because Cap switches from being the KO boxer, to Judo.. to TKW that this is somehow going to surprise anybody? You've already processed it. In real life it would equate to the same thing only you're also bigger, stronger, more durable, more striking force blah blah. It's an epic stomp. To not understand how an AI would compensate for anything Cap would try and instantly do so and know what is happening is mindboggling.
Your analogy was laughable. No, imagine playing a video game specifically designed to do its very best to beat you. Like the super computer designed to play chess, but even more so. That is so far removed from a normal video game it's not even funny. Forget hard mode on video game, we're talking exponentially worse. Those games are meant to be beat, they want you to beat it so you'll go buy another. They are trying to make you fail at every turn learning and adapting each time to make you lose.
To even think your post and analogy got a thumbs up is comical.
This is so facepalm worthy I don't even know where to start. Guess you never heard of tunnel vision or stress training and how you are completely unable to think when this happens in a fight.
You claim to know all these Martial arts yet fail to understand the concept of combinations, unpredictability and fighting instinct. Tell me, if you knew every single MA technique out there and I threw a jab at you, what would my follow up punch be? Would it be a cross? A hook? Another jab? A kick?
C'mon humor me. Surely with all the MA knowledge you claim to have you should be able to answer this question.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Well I won't say Cap wouldn't be able to counter the AI. The fight didn't go on long enough for us to know whether he could or couldn't.
Huh? We saw he couldn't. After the AI analyzed Cap's fighting style IM caught Cap's shield when Cap attacked with it, and then put Cap down in no time.
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Does Tony have something like that? He never used it during Civil War.
facepalm
facepalm facepalm
Originally posted by FrothByte
This is so facepalm worthy I don't even know where to start. Guess you never heard of tunnel vision or stress training and how you are completely unable to think when this happens in a fight.You claim to know all these Martial arts yet fail to understand the concept of combinations, unpredictability and fighting instinct. Tell me, if you knew every single MA technique out there and I threw a jab at you, what would my follow up punch be? Would it be a cross? A hook? Another jab? A kick?
C'mon humor me. Surely with all the MA knowledge you claim to have you should be able to answer this question.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Cap is arguably the best h2h fighter in the MCU while there is almost no indication that Tony is a good h2h fighter. We see him training with his bodyguard but training isn't the same as actually fighting or even competing.
Actually this is wrong, Tony was able to do H2H with WS for a bit, and Tony is not some slouch in H2H, unless you didn't really watch the movies or his fights with people like Thor who are h2h champs. Sometimes you really just say shit that is wrong and or makes no sense and follows bad logic.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Actually this is wrong, Tony was able to do H2H with WS for a bit, and Tony is not some slouch in H2H, unless you didn't really watch the movies or his fights with people like Thor and Hulk.Also Did you miss the huge boxing ring in his house?
Yeah, even out of his suit, Tony held out better against Bucky than virtually all those other armed and trained personal WS steamrolled through, during the brainwash scene. He did have his fancy watch thing, but a lot of the other people had melee weapons (and a few even had guns), yet they still went down more quickly than Tony. Even Falcon got taken out in like 2 hits. Only people who really did better was the Agent 13/Black Widow combo (and that was marginally), and T'Challa, who is on WS's level.
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
facepalm
facepalm facepalmWow wow wow. Before you go further with thus incredibly insulting, condescending and arrogant attitude, you should remember that you are insulting him while making insane claims like Cap can change his fighting style on the fly when he has shown nothing to support that
Watch the Cap vs Spiderman fight and tell me that wasn't adapting his fighting style.
Plus multiple high end fighters can change fighting styles on the fly if they see their initial approach isn't working. It's not unheard of.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, even out of his suit, Tony held out better against Bucky than virtually all those other armed and trained personal WS steamrolled through, during the brainwash scene. He did have his fancy watch thing, but a lot of the other people had melee weapons (and a few even had guns), yet they still went down more quickly than Tony. Even Falcon got taken out in like 2 hits. Only people who really did better was the Agent 13/Black Widow combo (and that was marginally), and T'Challa, who is on WS's level.
Good point. I forgot about that scene. Still, Tony is way below most Avengers in terms of h2h capability whereas Cap is at the top.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Huh? We saw he couldn't. After the AI analyzed Cap's fighting style IM caught Cap's shield when Cap attacked with it, and then put Cap down in no time.
As I said, the fight didn't go long enough for us to know whether Cap could adapt or not. IM took him out in what, 10 seconds?
I'm not saying Cap wins. I'm saying if IM didn't have such a huge physical advantage and it came down to pure skill, I don't think the AI would win against Cap's h2h capabilities.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Good point. I forgot about that scene. Still, Tony is way below most Avengers in terms of h2h capability whereas Cap is at the top.
Well, he is below most Avengers, but that is not really a slight against him. Based on that scene, his H2H skill + even some minor tech from his arsenal make him >>> the other trained and armed security personal who got in WS's way (excluding the likes of Widow & T'Challa). And considering the location all this happened and the stakes involved, we can assume that those guys weren't just some random rent-a-cops.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Actually this is wrong, Tony was able to do H2H with WS for a bit, and Tony is not some slouch in H2H, unless you didn't really watch the movies or his fights with people like Thor who are h2h champs. Sometimes you really just say shit that is wrong and or makes no sense and follows bad logic.
I forgot about the watch scene. Good point. But other than that, fighting IN ARMOR and using the armor's multiple gadgets is not an indication of actual h2h fighting skill.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, he is below most Avengers, but that is not really a slight against him. Based on that scene, his H2H skill + even some minor tech from his arsenal make him >>> the other trained and armed security personal who got in WS's way (excluding the likes of Widow & T'Challa). And considering the location all this happened and the stakes involved, we can assume that those guys weren't just some random rent-a-cops.
The point here is that Tony is way below Cap in terms of h2h skill. Unless you disagree?
Originally posted by FrothByte
The point here is that Tony is way below Cap in terms of h2h skill. Unless you disagree?
Never argued that. I was simply pointing out that it's not like Tony is some total noob in H2H. You initially said that there isn't real evidence that Tony is a good H2H fighter. There is, just not quite on the same level as the very elite. But he is definitely above average, especially for a middle-aged guy.