Cap and Winter Soldier V Iron Man

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Never argued that. I was simply pointing out that it's not like Tony is some total noob in H2H. You initially said that there isn't real evidence that Tony is a good H2H fighter. There is, just not quite on the same level as the very elite. But he is definitely above average, especially for a middle-aged guy.

And I will admit that I was wrong about that assesment. But it does not change my stance that Tony's fighting skill and intelligence is near the bottom rung of the avengers.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Never argued that. I was simply pointing out that it's not like Tony is some total noob in H2H. You initially said that there isn't real evidence that Tony is a good H2H fighter. There is, just not quite on the same level as the very elite. But he is definitely above average, especially for a middle-aged guy.

👆

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is so facepalm worthy I don't even know where to start. Guess you never heard of tunnel vision or stress training and how you are completely unable to think when this happens in a fight.

You claim to know all these Martial arts yet fail to understand the concept of combinations, unpredictability and fighting instinct. Tell me, if you knew every single MA technique out there and I threw a jab at you, what would my follow up punch be? Would it be a cross? A hook? Another jab? A kick?

C'mon humor me. Surely with all the MA knowledge you claim to have you should be able to answer this question.

As I said, it's clear to me you have next to no knowledge about actual fighting. You're not understanding something, combinations requires actual punching and kicking to pull off... which in turn require your body to do certain things to fire off those shots. Any movement in feet, hips, torso arms etc can signify what type of punch is coming and where. Punches and kicks don't just happen, there are things that can identify what is coming.

Somehow, someway you think that knowing every single MA on earth would mean next to nothing because of the unpredictability of a fight... it's ludicrous. Could some things occur that might throw your for a surprise, sure, but they would be few and far between and then shortly adapted to. That is how AI works. Even the most chaotic moves themselves can be predicted. A sudden rush looking for a tackle... bjj, sambo, judo and wrestling techniques would have to be used... They've already been studied... he goes for this part of the body... I counter with this. I honestly don't think you grasp the concept of how much knowledge you'd have and how good you'd be at fight and figuring out your foe. It would be an extreme advantage in almost every conceivable way.

Froth knows about kendo sword fighting, he doesn't know anything about MMA.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Good point. I forgot about that scene. Still, Tony is way below most Avengers in terms of h2h capability whereas Cap is at the top.

Stop making stuff up, you didn't forget about the scene, I've been referencing it since the movie came out... numerous times at that. I forgot about that scene lol

Froth always pulls that shit when he gets caught.

Anyone who actually watched the movie doesn't forget WS vs No Suit Tony.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Froth knows about kendo sword fighting, he doesn't know anything about MMA.

I also did boxing, muay thai and abrazare. Also, I don't do kendo. I did it a few times but not enough to claim I'm a kendoka.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Stop making stuff up, you didn't forget about the scene, I've been referencing it since the movie came out... numerous times at that. I forgot about that scene lol

Jeeze man. I make a mistake and admit to it and this is how you reply?

Originally posted by FrothByte
And I will admit that I was wrong about that assesment. But it does not change my stance that Tony's fighting skill and intelligence is near the bottom rung of the avengers.

H2H/Melee skill? Sure. Combat intelligence/tactical acumen? Going to have to strongly disagree there. Tony has shown time and time again that he is very capable of adapting on the fly and using his intelligence to work out new strategies, in the middle of combat (at least when not emotionally compromised).

His fight with Iron Monger. Tried to engage him straight up initially. That failed, so changed tactics and tried to take him into orbit. That failed, so he started playing stealth games, and got on top of Iron Monger and took out his optical/targeting systems. And ultimately formed a plan to beat him, while busy actively engaging him.

His fight against Whiplash on the racetrack. His initial tactics weren't working, so he grabbed the whips, closed the distance and took him out. Same with the end fight of War Machine/Iron Man vs Whiplash. The team realised they were losing, and quickly changed tactics to take him out with the repulsor combo.

Another good example is the Leviathan in the Avengers. When he realised even his lasers won't cut it, he quickly came up with an out-of-the-box strategy to take one out.

Even his fight with Killian. When he realised Killian was tearing up his suits and healing too quickly, he again changed tactics, slapped his suit on Aldrich and triggered the self-detonate. And that was Tony suffering from PTSD and insomnia.

Or his fight with the Hulk. Once the match started tipping in the Hulk's favour, Tony quickly changed tactics to end it before things got out of hand.

I could keep going. Fact is, by feats, Tony has better tactical acumen and combat intelligence than most of the Avengers.

Remember, he isn't just a super genius. He is a super genius who has been Iron Man for 8 years by now. Even a regular guy will start to learn things and become more tactically competent after being active that long. And Tony is hardly regular.

^👆

Originally posted by FrothByte
And I will admit that I was wrong about that assesment. But it does not change my stance that Tony's fighting skill and intelligence is near the bottom rung of the avengers.

😂

Originally posted by FrothByte
Jeeze man. I make a mistake and admit to it and this is how you reply?

I applaud you for admitting it, and I will say you do at least do that at times. I'm saying though, I just referenced this scene yesterday, and been doing so in our debates. Just seems odd your forgot the scene is all. But you're right, you did admit to making a mistake.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
H2H/Melee skill? Sure. Combat intelligence/tactical acumen? Going to have to strongly disagree there. Tony has shown time and time again that he is very capable of adapting on the fly and using his intelligence to work out new strategies, in the middle of combat (at least when not emotionally compromised).

His fight with Iron Monger. Tried to engage him straight up initially. That failed, so changed tactics and tried to take him into orbit. That failed, so he started playing stealth games, and got on top of Iron Monger and took out his optical/targeting systems. And ultimately formed a plan to beat him, while busy actively engaging him.

His fight against Whiplash on the racetrack. His initial tactics weren't working, so he grabbed the whips, closed the distance and took him out. Same with the end fight of War Machine/Iron Man vs Whiplash. The team realised they were losing, and quickly changed tactics to take him out with the repulsor combo.

Another good example is the Leviathan in the Avengers. When he realised even his lasers won't cut it, he quickly came up with an out-of-the-box strategy to take one out.

Even his fight with Killian. When he realised Killian was tearing up his suits and healing too quickly, he again changed tactics, slapped his suit on Aldrich and triggered the self-detonate. And that was Tony suffering from PTSD and insomnia.

Or his fight with the Hulk. Once the match started tipping in the Hulk's favour, Tony quickly changed tactics to end it before things got out of hand.

I could keep going. Fact is, by feats, Tony has better tactical acumen and combat intelligence than most of the Avengers.

Remember, he isn't just a super genius. He is a super genius who has been Iron Man for 8 years by now. Even a regular guy will start to learn things and become more tactically competent after being active that long. And Tony is hardly regular.

So you'd rank Tony's fightng intelligence higher than Thor's, BW's and Hawkeye's? Especially in a h2h situation (because that's what I was originally debating on)?

Since when did Thor have this uber figthing intelligence? He couldn't even beat Mal. Does him being good in H2H and a brawler make him a fighting genius?

Thor isn't a combat genius, what are you smoking? Loki outsmarts him every time where is Tony outsmarted Loki.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So you'd rank Tony's fightng intelligence higher than Thor's, BW's and Hawkeye's? Especially in a h2h situation (because that's what I was originally debating on)?

Put it this way. If I had to pick between Tony, Widow and Hawkeye to have to quickly come up with a plan to take out a tough opponent, in the middle of the fight, by feats, I would go with Tony. Because he has done so successfully multiple times onscreen. That does not necessarily mean he would beat either in an H2H fight though, as both have actual H2H/melee skill levels well beyond his own.

Thor has nearly a thousand years worth of experience to draw on, plus he has shown the ability to adapt and think intelligently in fights on multiple occasions. His fight with the Destroyer armour, or laying the hammer down on Loki to keep him immobilized are two quick examples I can think of without even trying too hard. And even he has some dumb showings too, like falling for illusions etc., but at least has other feats and vast amounts experience going for him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Put it this way. If I had to pick between Tony, Widow and Hawkeye to have to quickly come up with a plan to take out a tough opponent, in the middle of the fight, by feats, I would go with Tony. Because he has done so successfully multiple times onscreen. That does not necessarily mean he would beat either in an H2H fight though, as both have actual H2H/melee skill levels well beyond his own.

Thor has nearly a thousand years worth of experience to draw on, plus he has shown the ability to adapt and think intelligently in fights on multiple occasions. His fight with the Destroyer armour, or laying the hammer down on Loki to keep him immobilized are two quick examples I can think of without even trying too hard. And even he has some dumb showings too, like falling for illusions etc., but at least has other feats and vast amounts experience going for him.

Fair enough. I don't agree with it but I can respect your point. To me, I think Tony is good with lots of prep but making decisions in the middle of a fight? The chain of command I would follow orders would be:

1. Cap
2. Thor
3. BW
4. Hawkeye
5. IM
6. Hulk

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As I said, it's clear to me you have next to no knowledge about actual fighting. You're not understanding something, combinations requires actual punching and kicking to pull off... which in turn require your body to do certain things to fire off those shots. Any movement in feet, hips, torso arms etc can signify what type of punch is coming and where. Punches and kicks don't just happen, there are things that can identify what is coming.

Somehow, someway you think that knowing every single MA on earth would mean next to nothing because of the unpredictability of a fight... it's ludicrous. Could some things occur that might throw your for a surprise, sure, but they would be few and far between and then shortly adapted to. That is how AI works. Even the most chaotic moves themselves can be predicted. A sudden rush looking for a tackle... bjj, sambo, judo and wrestling techniques would have to be used... They've already been studied... he goes for this part of the body... I counter with this. I honestly don't think you grasp the concept of how much knowledge you'd have and how good you'd be at fight and figuring out your foe. It would be an extreme advantage in almost every conceivable way.

There are multiple strikes that will involve the same preparatory movements (hip, torso movement, etc) and yet at the last minute will be different. For example, I can throw a right cross, and yet at the last minute I can clip the punch short and turn it into an elbow. Yet the preparation remains the same. So if you were programming the AI, it would need to choose which of the two movements I was going to make. If it only reacts at the last minute then it wouldn't make it.

So you could program all the martial arts moves you want in an AI, program all the known combinations you have, but it still won't immediately know which order of combinations a human will move. I mean, sure it can come with some kind of default setting and it will be effective to a degree, but it won't be able to keep up with high level martial artists who know multiple styles and can switch between them on the fly.

The only way to get around that is to pre-program the AI. Allow it to watch the fighter, analyze and learn the fighter's habits and technique. Then it can effectively predict the fighter's movements. But to do that, you need to PRE-program it. Or at least allow it time to learn and analyze.

It won't be able to predict every single move a fighter will make right off the bat. That's not how AI works, that's not how martial arts works, and that's not how a fight works.

Besides, we don't even know if Cap went through formal martial arts training. You could program the AI with every known MA style in the world... what will it do when it confronts someone like Cap who can pull off moves that no human can do?

Here's an extra question for you KT:

If you had 1 martial artist who knew all the martial arts in the world. All the moves, all the combinations, practiced them all till he memorized all of them. Yet he'd only ever been in an actual fight once.

Would you pick him to win over another martial artist who's fought 100 fights against top level fighters and won every single fight?

Originally posted by FrothByte
There are multiple strikes that will involve the same preparatory movements (hip, torso movement, etc) and yet at the last minute will be different. For example, I can throw a right cross, and yet at the last minute I can clip the punch short and turn it into an elbow. Yet the preparation remains the same. So if you were programming the AI, it would need to choose which of the two movements I was going to make. If it only reacts at the last minute then it wouldn't make it.

So you could program all the martial arts moves you want in an AI, program all the known combinations you have, but it still won't immediately know which order of combinations a human will move. I mean, sure it can come with some kind of default setting and it will be effective to a degree, but it won't be able to keep up with high level martial artists who know multiple styles and can switch between them on the fly.

The only way to get around that is to pre-program the AI. Allow it to watch the fighter, analyze and learn the fighter's habits and technique. Then it can effectively predict the fighter's movements. But to do that, you need to PRE-program it. Or at least allow it time to learn and analyze.

It won't be able to predict every single move a fighter will make right off the bat. That's not how AI works, that's not how martial arts works, and that's not how a fight works.

Besides, we don't even know if Cap went through formal martial arts training. You could program the AI with every known MA style in the world... what will it do when it confronts someone like Cap who can pull off moves that no human can do?

No simple just no. Even the slightest change to your angle or choice of strikes can be predicted using other means like distance. If you know you're out of elbow range... there can be no elbow. If you are in elbow range the AI would already know so, and know it's possibly coming. You're not understanding that both and elbow and a punch both have movements that let the other person know it's coming. In either case he can see it coming.. do you really think somebody versed in every form of MA and the variances of each would be like HOLY SHIT HE THREW AN ELBOW THERE INSTEAD OF A PUNCH??? Cone on Froth. Angles, distances, varies techniques, blending of the arts would all be studied and known. AI can come up with an infinite amount of variables and formulas one can once during a fight. It would know exponentially more than Cap. There is simply nothing he can do that wouldn't be known already and adjusted to. You seem to think Cap can outthink A.I. specifically designed to study his style and beat him. He can't. A.I. can process information exponentially faster than Cap can. You think Cap can on the go out think and out formula A.I.? No way, no how.

That's exactly what was so PIS/CIS about the whole scene. IM would ALREASDY have detailed files on Cap. That's what he does. Even when he doesn't think he would have to face them, he still plans and prepares. After their Avengers confrontation, IM would've immediately started prep to analyze his style. In watching him fight his computer would already be gathering info. He's seen Cap fight countless times, yet somehow never bothered to tell the computer to figure him out? It's ludicrous the amount of PIS and CIS IM was exposed to. What's worse, even AFTER he knows Cap is on the other side and they straight out have a battle earlier... somehow he STILL hasn't told his computer to prep for the fight? WTF. It's beyond dumb. He would've done so, he's beyond a fing genius... he's a hyper genius. Yet, only after he's gotten knocked around does he bother to go... oh hey.. computer... why don't you analyze his style and figure it out... LOL. Please. Once he did, he curbed Cap and easily

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No simple just no. Even the slightest change to your angle or choice of strikes can be predicted using other means like distance. If you know you're out of elbow range... there can be no elbow. If you are in elbow range the AI would already know so, and know it's possibly coming. You're not understanding that both and elbow and a punch both have movements that let the other person know it's coming. In either case he can see it coming.. do you really think somebody versed in every form of MA and the variances of each would be like HOLY SHIT HE THREW AN ELBOW THERE INSTEAD OF A PUNCH??? Cone on Froth. Angles, distances, varies techniques, blending of the arts would all be studied and known. AI can come up with an infinite amount of variables and formulas one can once during a fight. It would know exponentially more than Cap. There is simply nothing he can do that wouldn't be known already and adjusted to. You seem to think Cap can outthink A.I. specifically designed to study his style and beat him. He can't. A.I. can process information exponentially faster than Cap can. You think Cap can on the go out think and out formula A.I.? No way, no how.

That's exactly what was so PIS/CIS about the whole scene. IM would ALREASDY have detailed files on Cap. That's what he does. Even when he doesn't think he would have to face them, he still plans and prepares. After their Avengers confrontation, IM would've immediately started prep to analyze his style. In watching him fight his computer would already be gathering info. He's seen Cap fight countless times, yet somehow never bothered to tell the computer to figure him out? It's ludicrous the amount of PIS and CIS IM was exposed to. What's worse, even AFTER he knows Cap is on the other side and they straight out have a battle earlier... somehow he STILL hasn't told his computer to prep for the fight? WTF. It's beyond dumb. He would've done so, he's beyond a fing genius... he's a hyper genius. Yet, only after he's gotten knocked around does he bother to go... oh hey.. computer... why don't you analyze his style and figure it out... LOL. Please. Once he did, he curbed Cap and easily

I don't think you understand how AI works. Or that no matter how fast your AI processing is it will still only be as fast as it's hardware is, meaning it will only move as fast as IM's armor can move.

But let's pretend you're right and that Tony's AI was just that darn good. Why then does he get hit multiple times in almost every fight he gets into?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No simple just no. Even the slightest change to your angle or choice of strikes can be predicted using other means like distance. If you know you're out of elbow range... there can be no elbow. If you are in elbow range the AI would already know so, and know it's possibly coming. You're not understanding that both and elbow and a punch both have movements that let the other person know it's coming. In either case he can see it coming.. do you really think somebody versed in every form of MA and the variances of each would be like HOLY SHIT HE THREW AN ELBOW THERE INSTEAD OF A PUNCH??? Cone on Froth. Angles, distances, varies techniques, blending of the arts would all be studied and known. AI can come up with an infinite amount of variables and formulas one can once during a fight. It would know exponentially more than Cap. There is simply nothing he can do that wouldn't be known already and adjusted to. You seem to think Cap can outthink A.I. specifically designed to study his style and beat him. He can't. A.I. can process information exponentially faster than Cap can. You think Cap can on the go out think and out formula A.I.? No way, no how.

That's exactly what was so PIS/CIS about the whole scene. IM would ALREASDY have detailed files on Cap. That's what he does. Even when he doesn't think he would have to face them, he still plans and prepares. After their Avengers confrontation, IM would've immediately started prep to analyze his style. In watching him fight his computer would already be gathering info. He's seen Cap fight countless times, yet somehow never bothered to tell the computer to figure him out? It's ludicrous the amount of PIS and CIS IM was exposed to. What's worse, even AFTER he knows Cap is on the other side and they straight out have a battle earlier... somehow he STILL hasn't told his computer to prep for the fight? WTF. It's beyond dumb. He would've done so, he's beyond a fing genius... he's a hyper genius. Yet, only after he's gotten knocked around does he bother to go... oh hey.. computer... why don't you analyze his style and figure it out... LOL. Please. Once he did, he curbed Cap and easily

Lol. Take a seat over there, man of war.