Post-GRRM, the show is appealing to a lower common denominator among its viewers; the ones who clap and cheer at action alone and don't care that characters being stupid for the sake of creating tension is something that deflates tension. Paired with the poor choices in story direction and it's hard to feel excited about the last episodes. I don't want to feel ungrateful to a still outstanding show, but they set the bar VERY high in the first few seasons and it's extremely easy to tell when it drops.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
The entire battle plan was retarded from the get-go. Jon and Dany wasting the dragons by chasing the NK for half the episode made no tactical sense. Charging your only cavalry with no support into an endless supply of zombies made no tactical sense. Abandoning the purpose of a castle by choosing to fight outside of it made no tactical sense. Fighting in the courtyards so you could be swarmed on all sides instead of retreating into the castle interior and fighting in the narrow hallways made no tactical sense. Leaving just the Ironborn to defend Bran even though it was established two episodes prior that the NK was going to go straight for him made no tactical sense.A battle written by English majors.
Pretty much, battle was written to be pure visually exciting, not tactically/strategically sound.
There were several seasoned leaders and fighters there that would have instantly said "no, this plan is retarded and will lead to all our deaths". Jamie, Jon, Jorah, Brianne, Beric, Fat Guy from the Vale and Greyworm come to mind. There's more.
Originally posted by Galan007
I like how Jon just started roaring at the zombie dragon there at the end.Metal.
jon snow achieving the same level of suicide-by-dragon rage as denton van zan from reign of fire. the irony is just splitting my brain apart.
next vs thread: jon snow vs the woodchipper from fargo
but wait... would van zan even be that stupid to just stand there and yell at it?
Originally posted by cdtmNot to mention that the Witch King wasn't the ultimate force of evil like Sauron was, but still required exceptional skill to face down. Imagine if, instead of destroying the Ring--which took 3 movies and a huge, exhausting, sacrificial effort by the characters to achieve in order to destroy Evil Incarnate-- Bard's daughter just had to jump out from behind a tree and stab Sauron in the tummy with an elvish dagger. With that out of the way we can go do what's really important: dealing with Saruman's mafia takeover of the Shire.
More or less, Lord of the Rings did it better.The Witch King fight had actual build, and required a lot of teamwork and luck. It told a story.
Arya ambushing Night King just felt like something that happened.
Originally posted by cdtm
More or less, Lord of the Rings did it better.The Witch King fight had actual build, and required a lot of teamwork and luck. It told a story.
Arya ambushing Night King just felt like something that happened.
Lol you had me until you started talking about the witch king. That encounter was dumb as f*ck. The guy was built up as a bad ass and then is killed by Eowin and Merry? With zero explanation as to why a dagger Merry is carrying can even harm some kind of undead wizard. I realize the Hobbit movies try to explain it, but meh.
And hell they deleted the scene where Witch King destroys Gandalf's staff. Then again that is for the best, it would have made his defeat by Eowin and a hobbit even harder to buy into(and f*ck that "no man can kill him tee she got lady parts tho!" stuff)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not to mention that the Witch King wasn't the ultimate force of evil like Sauron was, but still required exceptional skill to face down. Imagine if, instead of destroying the Ring--which took 3 movies and a huge, exhausting, sacrificial effort by the characters to achieve in order to destroy Evil Incarnate-- Bard's daughter just had to jump out from behind a tree and stab Sauron in the tummy with an elvish dagger. With that out of the way we can go do what's really important: dealing with Saruman's mafia takeover of the Shire.
Witch King was built up as the #1 guy of the ultimate force of evil though lol. The "teamwork" was: Merry showed up with a plot device weapon that was never explained in the film and stabbed him in the back.
Originally posted by SurturIt's not perfect, but the Witch-King wasn't THE bad guy, lord of evil and darkness. Kinda the same way I'm fine with Sam or Jon surprise killing a White Walker, I'm fine with Eowyn and Merry taking down WK. I didn't mention teamwork for him cuz I don't care; the Big Bad's lieutenants aren't the point.
Witch King was built up as the #1 guy of the ultimate force of evil though lol. The "teamwork" was: Merry showed up with a plot device weapon that was never explained in the film and stabbed him in the back.
Also why I'm fine with Bellatrix Lestrange or some other Death Eater being killed with a single spell, but Voldemort requiring something more complicated and special--lotta horcruxes to quest after, Elder Wands, Chosen Ones etc. If the guy could be taken out forever with a stab to the gut with a sharpened wand, it diminishes the menacing presence of the Big Bad and the sacrifices our heroes make to resist him.
Extraordinary villains of terrifying evil powers should require extraordinary conditions to dispatch, not just a shiv between the ribs. That we spend so long-- in the story and IRL-- establishing the eldritch nature of the villain and the stakes at play should they succeed, just compounds the anti-climax when they're taken out so lamely. Even the Nazis in Indiana Jones are defeated with the gruesome, magical face-melting power of God.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not perfect, but the Witch-King wasn't THE bad guy, lord of evil and darkness. Kinda the same way I'm fine with Sam or Jon surprise killing a White Walker, I'm fine with Eowyn and Merry taking down WK. I didn't mention teamwork for him cuz I don't care; the Big Bad's lieutenants aren't the point.Also why I'm fine with Bellatrix Lestrange or some other Death Eater being killed with a single spell, but Voldemort requiring something more complicated and special--lotta horcruxes to quest after, Elder Wands, Chosen Ones etc. If the guy could be taken out forever with a stab to the gut with a sharpened wand, it diminishes the menacing presence of the Big Bad and the sacrifices our heroes make to resist him.
Extraordinary villains of terrifying evil powers should require extraordinary conditions to dispatch, not just a shiv between the ribs. That we spend so long-- in the story and IRL-- establishing the eldritch nature of the villain and the stakes at play should they succeed, just compounds the anti-climax when they're taken out so lamely. Even the Nazis in Indiana Jones are defeated with the gruesome, magical face-melting power of God.
Yeah but...to continue using Harry Potter, Bellatrix might have died in a lame way, but we at least have feats to see why Voldemort favored her. She's able to duel multiple wizards at once. In the books we also see her taking down 3-4 lesser wizards easily by herself.
Meanwhile Witch King...stabbed Frodo and then got driven off by a dude waving a torch lol. I don't recall him doing much of anything else until dying.
And it's not like there were not ways to have Eowyn kill the thing that would have made more sense. All it would have taken was first adding in even just 30 seconds of dialogue establishing the dagger is magic, then two simple changes: replace Eowyn with Gandalf and Merry with Eowyn. So Gandolf does most of the fighting with the WK and Eowyn saves him and is able to get in close enough to use the dagger on the WK because she was a woman and the WK underestimates her.
Originally posted by SurturLike I said, it's not perfect. I remember watching that scene for the first time and going "Huh, that didn't take much." They also burn really easy, apparently, and with enough frantic swinging, they flee (a la Weathertop).
Yeah but...to continue using Harry Potter, Bellatrix might have died in a lame way, but we at least have feats to see why Voldemort favored her. She's able to duel multiple wizards at once. In the books we also see her taking down 3-4 lesser wizards easily by herself.Meanwhile Witch King...stabbed Frodo and then got driven off by a dude waving a torch lol. I don't recall him doing much of anything else until dying.
And it's not like there were not ways to have Eowyn kill the thing that would have made more sense. All it would have taken was first adding in even just 30 seconds of dialogue establishing the dagger is magic, then two simple changes: replace Eowyn with Gandalf and Merry with Eowyn. So Gandolf does most of the fighting with the WK and Eowyn saves him and is able to get in close enough to use the dagger on the WK because she was a woman and the WK underestimates her.
But again, none of the Nazgul are the point. Neither is Saruman, or the Mouth of Sauron, etc. Sauron is the point. He is the true force of evil and darkness in the world. And unlike Saruman, or the WK, or whoever else, it's not enough just to stab him--it takes something more, something special. Something very simple, yes, but also extremely difficult. And not just for the length and dangers of the physical journey, but also the treachery and seduction of the Ring as it tries to dissuade you from destroying it--the extraordinary step needed to stop the Dark Lord.
GoT gave us plenty of the build-up since 2010, but no appropriate payoff. A stab was all it took-- a flatly ordinary step to stop the Night King. Imagine if LotR ended with Gimli smashing the Ring with his axe halfway through Fellowship and the rest of the series was spent dealing with Denethor. We'd call that disappointing given the initial build-up of Sauron and the Ring.
Originally posted by ares834Exactly. Even in the infinitely superior book, Smaug's death felt fairly pedestrian and mundane. From a film perspective, killing him off in the opening of Act I was... just awful, and made the rest of the film even more boring than the last two.
Why? The Witch King is just a stooge. Why does there need to be some overtly complex way too kill him? What happened to him in both the books and movies were fine. Now if you wanna complain about Tolkien and villain deaths, then there is Smaug who was killed off by a literal who.
Originally posted by ares834
Why? The Witch King is just a stooge. Why does there need to be some overtly complex way too kill him? What happened to him in both the books and movies were fine. Now if you wanna complain about Tolkien and villain deaths, then there is Smaug who was killed off by a literal who.
Gandalf built the guy up to be a major league bad ass.