I was pulling more from the books of how before the Targaryens were ousted he was slighted in his offer to marriage of cersei. he held that grudge and it defined him and his legacy inadvertently.
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I would say that Littlefinger was on of my faves in the show and the books and now that it was mentioned probably played the game thus far the best.
Originally posted by RobtardHouse Lannister was certainly at its weakest when Tywin first started playing the game, but Tytos was still the Warden of the West and Lord of Casterly Rock. Lannister still had a great deal of gold and power, it's just that Tytos was too cowardly and weak to use it.
A very fair point, LF has achieved with very little to draw upon, while Tywin was born with his family name and the wealth/power associated with it.Though to add to the above about his birth, if we take The Rains of Castamere literally(and we should by all accounts), House Lannister is feared largely in part because of Tywin.
Tywin, it must be mentioned, also has made many enemies in his playing of the game. Everyone hates him, albeit not to the extent people hate his insane daughter. Littlefinger has become incredibly powerful while making relatively few enemies. This is no mean feat.
I'm referring to show!Tywin, who is a much better character than his book counterpart in terms of impressiveness and sheer entertainment value.
Whereas book!Tywin was merely one prominent player among many, the show bent over backwards season after season to establish Tywin as dominant. He's the most powerful man in the world, the one everyone is afraid of and worried about, and the guy who's keeping shit more or less intact. He's by far the most competent ruler we've seen in the show.
And while he wasn't born into poverty and obscurity, he is certainly the architect and catalyst of House Lannister's supremacy. Even the world over, the Iron Bank is willing to invest stupendous wealth into Westeros because of Tywin alone. When he dies, the game changes forever, and characters like Littlefinger and Varys are at last free to act on their own agendas in a much more liberated fashion.
I'd say there's ample reason to support Word of God in this case.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm referring to show!Tywin, who is a much better character than his book counterpart in terms of impressiveness and sheer entertainment value.
The latter yes, the former? It depends. He handles Joffrey even more thoroughly in the show yes, but he's also even more reliant on alliances and, most importantly, is broke and has to bend over for the Iron Bank of Braavos to maintain his power, as he explains to Cersei.
Whereas book!Tywin was merely one prominent player among many, the show bent over backwards season after season to establish Tywin as dominant. He's the most powerful man in the world, the one everyone is afraid of and worried about, and the guy who's keeping shit more or less intact. He's by far the most competent ruler we've seen in the show.
This is all true of book Tywin. And like book Tywin, he was outmaneuvered by Littlefinger and Olenna Tyrell when they assassinated Joffrey, and proceeded to take a very valuable hostage (Sansa) from his grasp without anyone being any the wiser. Similarly, the entire conflict was orchestrated by Littlefinger as a means of improving his station, which involved manipulating the Stark, Lannister, and Tully houses into a war. He proceeded to do the same to the Tyrells and the Arryn (who he now essentially owns). So he has in fact manipulated Tywin. Furthermore, he has all but certainly deliberately put Westeros into a debt so deep even Tywin couldn't pay it back, weakening his position considerably by forcing him to rely on the wealth of the Tyrells. Yet Tywin doesn't suspect a ****ing thing, IIRC.
He doesn't even compare to Littlefinger as a player IMHO.
And while he wasn't born into poverty and obscurity, he is certainly the architect and catalyst of House Lannister's supremacy. Even the world over, the Iron Bank is willing to invest stupendous wealth into Westeros because of Tywin alone.
So this is actually objectively false. In fact, Davos secures the Iron Bank's backing of Stannis over Tywin pretty much purely based on the men's respective characters. Tywin fears the Iron Bank, yet Littlefinger was able to successfully bamboozle both them and Tywin himself in one move.
When he dies, the game changes forever, and characters like Littlefinger and Varys are at last free to act on their own agendas in a much more liberated fashion.
Sure I guess, but Littlefinger was already doing a pretty good job of tickling Tywin's balls when he was alive.
I'd say there's ample reason to support Word of God in this case.Not if God is a retard tbh.
edit: Also, the reason I asked what you meant by "most formidable" is because, well, the White Walker's and their king are by far the biggest villainous threat in the series. No one else really comes close.
I like how Littlefinger has maneuvered himself around the board, he's the best player of the game that we've seen so far, perhaps Varys too, although his goals are less about himself. I never got the impression with Tywin though that he ever actually wanted to be the King, I'm pretty sure he could have after the Targaryens fell. As much as I like Baelish, I doubt he will be the one to win the war or be sitting on the Iron Throne when it's all said and done. Neither will Varys or Tywin for that matter!
Doing this on my phone while work is slow.
Originally posted by NemeBro
The latter yes, the former? It depends. He handles Joffrey even more thoroughly in the show yes, but he's also even more reliant on alliances and, most importantly, is broke and has to bend over for the Iron Bank of Braavos to maintain his power, as he explains to Cersei.
I'd say he's more reliant on alliances in the books than the show. In the show, he has to more or less tapdance around the Tyrells and such. In the show, Mace Tyrell is less a peer than an errand boy Tywin doesn't at all respect and Granny Tyrell blitzes through Varys and Tyrion in season 3, but hits a hard stop with Tywin and concedes to his demands to marry Loras to Cersei.
This is all true of book Tywin. And like book Tywin, he was outmaneuvered by Littlefinger and Olenna Tyrell when they assassinated Joffrey, and proceeded to take a very valuable hostage (Sansa) from his grasp without anyone being any the wiser. Similarly, the entire conflict was orchestrated by Littlefinger as a means of improving his station, which involved manipulating the Stark, Lannister, and Tully houses into a war. He proceeded to do the same to the Tyrells and the Arryn (who he now essentially owns). So he has in fact manipulated Tywin. Furthermore, he has all but certainly deliberately put Westeros into a debt so deep even Tywin couldn't pay it back, weakening his position considerably by forcing him to rely on the wealth of the Tyrells. Yet Tywin doesn't suspect a ****ing thing, IIRC.He doesn't even compare to Littlefinger as a player IMHO.
Nah, Joffrey's death doesn't impact Tywin's position or feelings in the slightest in the show. In fact, it arguably enhances it because it replaces a willful psychopath with a much more malleable puppet king. Littlefinger/Granny's plot only helped Tywin.
Littlefinger certainly enhanced his own station, but never enough to challenge Tywin, whom he very obviously fears and respects in the show. Tywin was still king of the mountain.
Very true about the debt, but this was again something that Tywin was managing due to sheer will, reputation, and savvy political alliances with the Tyrells.
Not to mention that it's far easier to destroy than it is to build. Show!Tywin was managing Littlefinger's shenanigans ably enough, which is why I maintains Tywin is the better player.
So this is actually objectively false. In fact, Davos secures the Iron Bank's backing of Stannis over Tywin pretty much purely based on the men's respective characters. Tywin fears the Iron Bank, yet Littlefinger was able to successfully bamboozle both them and Tywin himself in one move.
No, it's not lol. Davos secures support from the Iron Bank over Tywin's potential heirs. He never presents the argument that Stannis is a better option than Tywin himself, because the Iron Bank don't believe that - but that once Tywin is gone, his successors aren't nearly as appealing. So yeah, the Iron Bank's titanic investments are dependent entirely on Tywin himself, such is his clout with them.
Sure I guess, but Littlefinger was already doing a pretty good job of tickling Tywin's balls when he was alive.
Some gentle tickling, sure. But again, Tywin was managing all of Littlefinger's chaos (which is far harder than inciting it) while being supreme. Littlefinger advanced his own position, but never enough to challenge Tywin himself.
Not if God is a retard tbh.edit: Also, the reason I asked what you meant by "most formidable" is because, well, the White Walker's and their king are by far the biggest villainous threat in the series. No one else really comes close. [/B]
Yeah, the WW definitely present an existential threat.
Season 7 teaser trailer
http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/30/game-of-thrones-season-7-teaser-trailer/
That trailer probably isn't meant to be taken too literally, but if the White Walkers are already in Kings Landing, the Jon and Sansa are already screwed. They would have had to wash through the North first.
Also, I'm assuming Dany's new seat is in Dragonstone. Smart. Tons of Targ loyalists and easy position to defend against other armies, not to mention her dragons could wreak havoc on the bay. She has the best seat by far. God I hope she dies this season.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd say he's more reliant on alliances in the books than the show. In the show, he has to more or less tapdance around the Tyrells and such.
Not really accurate. Tywin in the books didn't actually seek out the Tyrells for an alliance. Tyrion did, and Tywin just rolled with it when he took over as Hand because it was beneficial.
In the show Tywin needs the Tyrells. He doesn't want them to give him an advantage, he needs them for their money, because he can't actually pay back the Iron Bank himself. All because Littlefinger ****ed him, and without Tywin being any the wiser.
In the show, Mace Tyrell is less a peer than an errand boy Tywin doesn't at all respect
This is the case in the book.
and Granny Tyrell blitzes through Varys and Tyrion in season 3, but hits a hard stop with Tywin and concedes to his demands to marry Loras to Cersei.
Fair, but Olenna never once had an onscreen conversation with Tywin in the books that I recall.
Nah, Joffrey's death doesn't impact Tywin's position or feelings in the slightest in the show. In fact, it arguably enhances it because it replaces a willful psychopath with a much more malleable puppet king. Littlefinger/Granny's plot only helped Tywin.
"It's not an opinion, it's a fact. If a rival house can seize one of our own and hold him with impunity, we are no longer a house to be feared."
How do you imagine the king Tywin is keeping in power, as well as his grandson, being murdered when Tywin was literally seated at that very table looks?
Littlefinger certainly enhanced his own station, but never enough to challenge Tywin, whom he very obviously fears and respects in the show. Tywin was still king of the mountain.
Go on? Littlefinger isn't a wizard, he can't just conjure Tywin's family name and vast resources out of thin air. Both of which Tywin had to begin with. He's not stupid, he wouldn't openly oppose Tywin until the time was right. But bamboozle him and drastically weaken his station? He could do that. And did. Despite not having a millionth of Tywin's resources, nor a name a thousandth as prestigious. Tywin started out as the Warden of the West. This is the third highest position in Westeros, under the Hand and the king. Tywin only ascended two steps up the social ladder (since he was king in all but name). Littlefinger ascended thousands.
Very true about the debt, but this was again something that Tywin was managing due to sheer will, reputation, and savvy political alliances with the Tyrells.
No, I'm pretty sure he managed the debt by throwing away most of his wealth and thus secretly becoming much less wealthy than he had a reputation for. His "savvy political alliance" with the Tyrell is not a point in his favor. He isn't manipulating them for his own benefit. By his own words, he needs them, because he simply can not afford to keep his position with his own resources anymore, and doesn't dare crossing the Iron Bank.
Not to mention that it's far easier to destroy than it is to build. Show!Tywin was managing Littlefinger's shenanigans ably enough, which is why I maintains Tywin is the better player.
Afraid not. Tywin's position weakened considerably due to Littlefinger putting the kingdom massively in debt, he was manipulated by Littlefinger into just handing him one of the most prestigious positions in Westeros, his most valuable hostage (Sansa Stark) was spirited away from him directly under his nose (she was like twenty feet away), which weakened his claim to the North (and strengthened Littlefinger's), and of course killed his own grandson at the same table Tywin himself was seated at, which also got rid of Tywin's most formidable ally, his own son, whose usefulness Tywin was simply too stupid to make good use of. There's no other way to say it, Tywin's braindead mistreatment of Tyrion was incredibly stupid, and seriously weakened his potential as a player. In fact, all things considered, Littlefinger's actions indirectly led to Tywin's death, though I won't claim he planned it.
No, it's not lol. Davos secures support from the Iron Bank over Tywin's potential heirs. He never presents the argument that Stannis is a better option than Tywin himself, because the Iron Bank don't believe that - but that once Tywin is gone, his successors aren't nearly as appealing. So yeah, the Iron Bank's titanic investments are dependent entirely on Tywin himself, such is his clout with them.
Fair enough, but what exactly are you saying here? What clout does he have with the Iron Bank? Tywin fears the Iron Bank of Braavos, and doesn't dare cross them. Not the other way around.
Some gentle tickling, sure. But again, Tywin was managing all of Littlefinger's chaos (which is far harder than inciting it) while being supreme. Littlefinger advanced his own position, but never enough to challenge Tywin himself.
No, ascending to be one of the most powerful men in Westeros while royally dicking the most powerful man in Westeros while simultaneously throwing the realm in chaos is harder than just trying and frankly failing to keep his position of power. Tywin was weaker at the time of his death than he was at the start of the series. Littlefinger just keeps moving up, with barely a speed bump on the climb. And he had Tywin to thank for it. I can't stress this enough. Littlefinger literally ****ed Tywin in the ass hole, and then convinced him to give him a big promotion. There's no comparison. Littlefinger is the best player of the game, and I honestly don't think anyone else comes that close.
Don't get this twisted. I'm not saying Littlefinger is a better villain or character than Tywin. He's not. Baelish in the show is heavily reliant on stupid writing to keep himself ahead, since the character is so blatantly and obviously evil that people trusting him with power at all is so stupid it can only be considered poor writing. The writing surrounding Tywin is generally a lot more solid, and he also has Charles Dance's towering performance on his side.
Another point for Littlefinger that proves that he's a ****ing genius and the best player: he is the only player who is virtually immune to Varys' intelligence networking. Everyone else can't take a shit without Varys finding out, but Littlefinger can do these big plots without Varys being any the wiser. And the reason for that is simple: Littlefinger knows Varys' network relies on no-account children passing messages, so he conducts almost all of his dirty business in brothels, where children can't go. Explicitly stated? No, but **** you. 👆