Understanding Exar Kun's spirit.

If Kyp's power were negligible compared to Kun's, Kun wouldn't have gone through so much effort to recruit him. Kyp baseline power at this stage might not be very high, but it's pretty much stated outright that Kun unlocks a significant amount of his potential, potential that is said to rival Luke's.

It seems more probable than not that human Exar > nexus + spirit Exar. What isn't so clear is whether human Exar > nexus + spirit Exar + amped Kyp. If he isn't, you can't just translate Kun's feat of defeating Luke (which is the only one that's really impressive) to him when he had help.

Given that the majority of the power in play involved in defeating Luke is clearly Kun's, then a much more powerful Exar Kun, with his gear to boot, is clearly making up for any power Kyp would have contributed in that battle.

It also isn't his only impressive feat, through Streen he summoned a vortex powerful enough to launch people thousands of feet into the air. He also managed to nearly choke out a very powerful group of melded Jedi, a feat of Force grip pretty much unparalelled in lore, with his energy depleted and sources blocked off.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No one said Kun didn't play a part in this, but you're completely removing Durron from the equation, which is wrong.

I never did such a thing, I am stating that Kun's power was the clear majority here, and that his more powerful living incarnation would make up for Kyp himself, especially given his standard gear includes an amulet.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Given that the majority of the power in play involved in defeating Luke is clearly Kun's, then a much more powerful Exar Kun, with his gear to boot, is clearly making up for any power Kyp would have contributed in that battle.

How do you know that? Kun does not try to fight Skywalker alone - he blindsides him from the walls after Kyp confronts and attacks him. There's no reason to believe that Kun's spirit could have beaten him solo.

It also isn't his only impressive feat, through Streen he summoned a vortex powerful enough to launch people thousands of feet into the air.

Could you refresh me on this?

He also managed to nearly choke out a very powerful group of melded Jedi, a feat of Force grip pretty much unparalelled in lore, with his energy depleted and sources blocked off.

That's hardly an unparalleled feat; these were trainees who were still learning how to lift rocks and deflect blaster bolts.

Where do you place Exar Kun, exactly? We know that he's weaker than Palpatine, and we have fairly consistent statements that he's below Vitiate but above any ancient sith before him. I am open to the idea that he's more powerful than Vader, simply by virtue of his performance against Luke (I don't think that, say, two Dooku-tier combatants couldn't overwhelmed him like that, and flesh Exar is stronger).

Originally posted by AncientPower
I never did such a thing, I am stating that Kun's power was the clear majority here, and that his more powerful living incarnation would make up for Kyp himself, especially given his standard gear includes an amulet.

Luke goes after Kyp, not the other way around, and Exar Kun had just helped him summon the Suncrusher beforehand. So he would have already lost a lot of power pulling that off.

It clearly states Kun had been augmenting Kyp Durron over a few weeks before they rended Luke, then Kyp was reinforced so heavily by Kun that it allowed him to overwhelm Luke Skywalker.

I don't think Kun's spirit could defeat him solo, but the much more powerful living Exar Kun could. Kind of been my argument since the OP.

Streen summons a vortex with alter environment whilst Kun is tricking him, it nearly launches Kirana Ti, Leia and comatose Luke through the roof and into the sky:

Leia knew that even powerful Jedi could not manipulate large-scale phenomena like the weather; but they could move objects, and she realized that was what Streen did now. Not changing the weather, but simply moving the air, drawing it in from all directions, creating a self-contained but destructive tornado that struck toward Luke's body._
"No!" she shouted into the starving wind. "Streen!"_
The cyclone struck Luke, buffeted his body, and lifted it into the air. Leia ran toward her paralyzed brother, feet barely touching the ground as the powerful winds knocked her sideways. The storm wrenched her off balance, and she found herself thrown through the air, flying like an insect toward the stone walls. She spun around and reached out, calming herself enough to use her own abilities with the Force, to nudge her body away._
Instead of being crushed against the stone blocks, she slid softly to the floor. Luke's body continued rising, tugged upward by the hurricane.
Leia suddenly knew what Streen intended to do to them, whether consciously or unconsciously. They would be sucked out of the Great Temple, tossed high into the sky, and then allowed to crash thousands of feet to the spear-pointed branches of the jungle canopy._
The turbolift door opened. Kirana Ti charged out, followed by Tionne and Kam Solusar. She tackled Streen to the flagstoned floor and locked his arms behind his back. Streen cried out, then blinked his eyes open. He looked wildly around in confusion. Instantly the wind stopped blowing. The air fell still.
- Jedi Academy Volume 3: Champions of the Force

It is stated that Exar Kun channelled his powers through Streen to achieve his ends, this end being killing Luke permanently:

Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends. How he was able to do such things is a Sith mystery which has not been revealed for many centuries.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

They were certainly not mere trainees, they were approaching Luke himself in terms of knowledge:

Master Skywalker was proud of them. He said that the trainees were reaching the limits of the techniques he himself could teach them.
-Jedi Academy Volume 3 Champions of the Force

Solidly below Reborn Palpatine and Valkorion, but above Darth Vader and Darth Krayt.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which is just an assumption you're making, no matter how you slice it.

That living Exar Kun + Amulet > spirit Exar Kun > Kyp Durron + Focal Point?
Not much of an assumption when that is strongly implied and even stated in the text. Adding 2 + 2 together ain't hard.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Luke goes after Kyp, not the other way around, and Exar Kun had just helped him summon the Suncrusher beforehand. So he would have already lost a lot of power pulling that off.

There's no reason to think that he was fatigued by the time he confronted Luke.

It clearly states Kun had been augmenting Kyp Durron over a few weeks before they rended Luke, then Kyp was reinforced so heavily by Kun that it allowed him to overwhelm Luke Skywalker.

It says that Luke couldn't defeat the two of them together. You're just asserting without any particular evidence that Kun played the overwhelming majority of the role in overwhelming him, and there's really no reason to believe this.

I don't think Kun's spirit could defeat him solo, but the much more powerful living Exar Kun could. Kind of been my argument since the OP.

There's no solid evidence that spirit Exar + Kyp < flesh Exar. Mind you, Luke himself didn't really have any ability to affect Exar's spirit, which basically blindsided him with attacks he'd never seen before.

Streen summons a vortex with alter environment whilst Kun is tricking him, it nearly launches Kirana Ti, Leia and comatose Luke through the roof and into the sky:

Oh. That's less impressive than pulling the Sun Crusher out of a gas giant anyway.

They were certainly not mere trainees, they were approaching Luke himself in terms of knowledge:

That sounds like BS from Luke, given that he knows sith techniques from Palpatine that he obviously isn't going to teach them. Regardless, that they approach Luke in terms of knowledge (like...telekinesis? Precognition? Luke doesn't gain his ridiculous set of powers until NJO-ish) doesn't mean that they approach him in raw power.

Solidly below Reborn Palpatine and Valkorion, but above Darth Vader and Darth Krayt.

I could buy that, but largely because he knows techniques that modern Force users don't encounter as often.

Except, given logic from the Jedi Vs. Sith guide, both acts took their toll on Kun's reserves:

his effort to draw the Suncrusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out.
-Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Logically if he hadn't have just done that like ten minutes prior, he'd have been stronger when facing Luke. Kyp Durron literally asks for Kun's power and then thanks him when he has the Suncrusher.

No, one quote from the New Chronology states Luke couldn't defeat Kyp's 'full might' and Kun's forbidden weapons. The assertion being made is that the 'full might' of Kyp was being amped heavily by Exar Kun at the time. The indication being that Kyp's attempts without Exar Kun's 'black-ice power' 'reinforcing his abilities' are feeble by comparison.

Kyp with a focusing point is stated to be feeble compared to when he has Kun's power amplifying him. Something reinforced by the JA: Sourcebook, stating that Kun's power had allowed Kyp to defeat Luke. Something Horn and Streen echo in their own historical accounts.

He tried every defensive technique he knew but they all utterly failed, he was going all-out defensively and he still got dominated. Luke being capable of dealing with sorcery is a whole different kettle of fish though.

On two powerful Jedi, it is impressive, for a character with little in the way of TK/AE feats.

Thry were reaching limits of the techniques that Luke could teach them, obviously that isn't including Sith techniques. Luke already had learnt plenty of techniques by then and is stated to be a master of the Force in DE.

It also isn't as if these are red shirt Jedi, four of them are incredibly impressive already and have prior training, their apprenticing to Luke is to refine what they already have experience with.

We're talking about:
Kam Solusar, a Jedi Purge survivor and an ally of Luke in DE against inquisitors.
Brakiss, a top Imperial Inquisitor who infiltrated the praxeum under the guise of a Jedi prospect, the same guy who founds the Shadow Academy, causes dolar flares with his power and is capable of giving Luke ab exhausting.
Kirana Ti, a powerful Dathomiri Witch so strong she was chosen because of her potential.
Streen, who buffets Leviathans with AE and shields himself and allies from valconic projectiles.
Dorsk 81, who goes on to perform one of the greatest telekinetic feats of all time.

They are all melded together and are empowering each other as well. Not to mention three year old Jaina and Jacen, whose brother as a fetus was amping Luke via the same meld to allow him to defeat Reborn Palpatine on the Eclipse.

They aren't featless trainees who don't know anything.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You are speculating and forming arguments based off of your own interpretations, you keep making claims based off of them and then provide no supporting evidence. My argument is directly supported by statements.

For Exar Kun to live again he needs 'Luke and the other trainees', as a 'nucleus of followers' to drain 'the energy he needs' to 'restore his lost reserves of energy' and 'take human form'.

It literally can't be more obviously stated than that.

And in light of your failure to do so, I accept your concession honey. 😉

You claim Kun didn't have time to siphon energy from Gantoris, which is wrong

He is siphoning power from Gantoris, it just isn't enough, he attemptd to convert Luke by appearing as Anakin Skywalker, it doesn't work and his power is drained, so he returns to Gantoris and drains him fully

That's not what the quote says, it says that Kun drained Gantoris because he was "no longer his", because he no longer had control over him. The only reason it being no longer being because Kun's attempt to push Gantoris to new heights of anger backfired and caused him to lose control:

Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.

You make the claim that he doesn't need all the students to regain physical form, when not only the above statements but Exar Kun's own statements contradict you:

On the other hand, your stance is indeed contradicted by the following:

Taken from Jedi Academy Sourcebook

A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again.

Honestly this argument is getting more circular and circular by the moment, understand that saying "you're wrong because [repeat what you already said]" does not constitute a counter-argument, it constitutes floundering.

And I assume you've given up on trying to refute my other points?

AP seems to be crushing it tbh.

You can cheerlead better than that Neph, takes some notes from Legend, he has real passion. 🙂

So all I'm seeing here is 'my interpretation is immaculate, any other is flawed and baseless.' The difference being I am building an inferrence by adding one statement with another and painting the bigger picture. You are taking a single statement and interpreting it to mean something else entirely despite the 'face value' of the statement being supported by other statements.

If all you can do is essentially say 'no it doesn't mean that, here's my opinion on why' then I've no further interested in arguing a point you long since went out of_the way to argue semantics on.

If you simply disagree with living Kun being one of the most powerful Sith ever, then feel free to have your opinion, but frankly you seem to be arguing out of spite by this point.

I've changed a lot of opinions so far in this thread, my work here is finished. You were never the end, just the means. I also grow tired arguing a point you wouldn't concede if Tom Veitch himself told you, you were wrong... wait.

Now if you want to act more like one of Ant's clowns feel free to rant about concessions, dear.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You can cheerlead better than that Neph, takes some notes from Legend, he has real passion. 🙂

Your whole idea that Kun could wield power in excess of what he usually could when alive, is pants on head retarded. If he could draw on that much power he'd just use it to revive himself, dumbass.

That's better. 🙂

Originally posted by AncientPower
So all I'm seeing here is 'my interpretation is immaculate, any other is flawed and baseless.' The difference being I am building an inferrence by adding one statement with another and painting the bigger picture. You are taking a single statement and interpreting it to mean something else entirely despite the 'face value' of the statement being supported by other statements.

If all you can do is essentially say 'no it doesn't mean that, here's my opinion on why' then I've no further interested in arguing a point you long since went out of_the way to argue semantics on.

If you simply disagree with living Kun being one of the most powerful Sith ever, then feel free to have your opinion, but frankly you seem to be arguing out of spite by this point.

I've changed a lot of opinions so far in this thread, my work here is finished. You were never the end, just the means. I also grow tired arguing a point you wouldn't concede if Tom Veitch himself told you, you were wrong... wait.

Now if you want to act more like one of Ant's clowns feel free to rant about concessions, dear.

I had fun, AP. Let's do it again sometime. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's better. 🙂

Don't tempt me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nyriss might be a fallible source but TOR Encyclopedia is not. Sorry.

I'm going to need a reason to believe that. Because, as far as I know. the SWTOR Encyclopedia was not written by an omniscient source.

Spoiler:
Just to be clear, I don't actually think Kun > Vitiate. BUt if you have a source that we can take with 100% of being true then please, post it.

Yeh I don't think anybody here suggests Kun > Valkorion.