From the SWTORE:
Reborn as Sith, the newly named Darth Revan and Darth Malak were tasked with a vital mission for the Emperor - to secure the Star Forge [...] the perfect fuel for the Empire's impending war with the Republic.
Revan and Malak scoured the galaxy and ultimately discovered the Star Forge. But instead of delivering it to the Emperor, Revan seized the Star Forge for his own use. With Malak at his side and the Star Forge supplying his fleet, Revan formed a new Sith Empire and prepared to conquer the Republic. Only by uniting the galaxy under his rule could Revan hope to defeat the threat posed by the Emperor.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He couldn't even control his power, lmao, or harness it to begin with. He needed teaching and nurturing for that to happen, and Traya/Malachor provided that. He isn't going to do the Katarr thing by just becoming a Wound in the Force. And you keep ignoring what I said about Sion, so I take it as a concession.
So what? The Exile couldn't control her power. That doesn't mean it wasn't directly and solely caused by the Battle of Malachor. Just like Nihilus' power was caused by it as well. That he was taught to control is is irrelevant. He was caused by Malachor, end of story. Sion's assassins were born from Malachor as well, they learned their abilities from Nihilus and the Exile.
Originally posted by SunRazer
She was exiled because Revan and many of her other students went to war. If you're going to say Vitiate's the cause of that, then that's a concession on your part. I don't think you'd be able to stretch that hard in anime, to be honest.
The war that Vitiate caused to weaken the Jedi and the Republic. I don't know how you think this is a concession on my part.
Originally posted by SunRazer
30 years, and its effects weren't negligible if the Order never fully recovered from it, especially considering that the Jedi spent another few years engaging in the Great Hunt and losing more Jedi there. Vitiate didn't bring the Jedi down to two people like you were saying. Just own up to your loss. Vitiate didn't bring them down to two people.And at the end of the day, Palpatine's influence >>> Vitiate's.
That doesn't follow at all. Maul and Savage killed some Jedi too. I guess Sidious doesn't get credit for his thing then! Just because small amounts of Jedi died in other ways doesn't cancel out the fact that the Jedi Purge is what caused them to drop to such small numbers. They would have fallen to those numbers regardless of Kun or the Great Hunt. The Purge was overwhelmingly the cause of their downfall. And not being fully recovered just mean they weren't at 100%, not that they were at 50% or something.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, that's another concession to accept.
To what? I told you that whether or not Vitiate is a master planner is pointless to this discussion about influence, not impressiveness. I don't care if you think he's shitty at strategy, it's utterly worthless to bring it up.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Okay, just stop responding. We're going in circles now. You don't need to continue this. What you need is a nice, cold bath to get this out of your system. And I accept the concession. It's 2AM here now, I've got to go, but if you do choose to respond, please don't just continue the circle.
"I'm going to respond but please don't reply because then I get the last word and get to smugly say you conceded to me." Yeah, sure. 😬
Originally posted by Beniboybling
From the SWTORE:Reborn as Sith, the newly named Darth Revan and Darth Malak were tasked with a vital mission for the Emperor - to secure the Star Forge [...] the perfect fuel for the Empire's impending war with the Republic.
Revan and Malak scoured the galaxy and ultimately discovered the Star Forge. But instead of delivering it to the Emperor, Revan seized the Star Forge for his own use. With Malak at his side and the Star Forge supplying his fleet, Revan formed a new Sith Empire and prepared to conquer the Republic. Only by uniting the galaxy under his rule could Revan hope to defeat the threat posed by the Emperor.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vitiate didn't orchestrate the war because while he did send Revan and Malak to kill things, they never would have reported back to him, which kind of defeats the purpose.
He did orchestrate the war because he sent them to make war...... which they did. What they would have done afterwards doesn't matter.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
They were never going to report back because they didn't even know he existed. Do you even English?
Are you? He didn't orchestrate the war because he sent them there to make war and then they did, but didn't file a report for him? Are you listening to yourself?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It kind of does. War doesn't mean, "Go kill things for me." It has goals and aims, just like any action. And since you're trying to claim influence, accomplishing one's goals is kind of important.
Mandalore the Ultimate (Mandalorian Wars), Revan and Malak (Jedi Civil War) were Vitiate's agents tasked to achieve his primary objectives. Yes, Revan broke free from Vitiate's influence (thanks to the mindwipe he experienced at the hands of the Jedi) and decided to act against Vitiate but Darth Malak remained under the spell of Vitiate (partially it be) and checkmated Revan's plans.
Point is about influencing galactic events. And the aforementioned developments fit the description.
Originally posted by NephthysThat's called instigating. Seriously, look up the definitions, I'm not spoon feeding you.
No, whether it succeeded or not is irrelevant. He still orchestrated the war because he sent them to go start a war and they did, solely because he sent them to start a war. Wtf???
Vitiate told them to go make war on the Republic and then they did it. They were strong willed enough to pervert his instructions to think they were doing it for their own purposes but were truly still doing what he wanted.
Kind of different from your example.
@Beni: What difference would that make to this discussion?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side.
Luke eventually, through means that have nothing to do with Vader and for completely different reasons, falls to the Dark Side.
Therefore, mission accomplished Vader.
Vitiate corrupted and motivated Mandalore the Ultimate to commence Mandalorian Wars and similarly corrupted and motivated Revan and Malak to commence the Jedi Civil War and find the Star Forge. Did he not? Did these wars not take place? Did the Republic and Jedi Order not suffer tremendously as a consequence?
Originally posted by NephthysBecause it means the impact of the Jedi Civil War can't be attributed to Vitiate (who was comparatively ineffective in his conquest of the Republic), if it weren't for Revan's charisma and tactical acumen (and indeed if it weren't for Revan discovering the Star Forge) the Jedi Civil War may never have happened, it certainly wouldn't have been such a damaging conflict for the Republic.
@Beni: What difference would that make to this discussion?
Simply put as far as influence goes, Revan was much more so in the Jedi Civil War, Vitiate is a footnote, and an oppurtunist, and in fact was a footnote until SWTOR retconned in his involvement.
Instigating something means you still influenced it enough to make it happen. It's no different from orchestrating something. I don't see why it would strip him of the credit.
No shit Revan is more important. No one is contesting that. It's not an all or nothing thing. That doesn't change the fact that Vitiate is the major cause of the war and a highly important factor. He still gets credit for it.
I'm not saying Vitiate shouldn't get credit, just not all of it, or even most of it. Because there is a big difference between facilitating a conflict and actually orchestrating it.
For example, Palpatine gets much more credit for the equally influential Clone Wars and Stark Hyperspace War, and even the Naboo Crisis, because he actually orchestrated these conflicts, Vitiate didn't.
EDIT: Its also quite important to be particular in these matters, otherwise as Temp points out, we may as well attribute all Vitiate's success to his parents.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate told them to go make war on the Republic and then they did it. They were strong willed enough to pervert his instructions to think they were doing it for their own purposes but were truly still doing what he wanted.Kind of different from your example.
@Beni: What difference would that make to this discussion?