No, it was a result of the Jedi choosing a type of counterattack to the Mandalorians, the Mass Shadow Generator. Vitiate's influence there is incredibly indirect.
Moreover, Nihilus wasn't a threat because he was born from Malachor, he was a threat because the Malachor archives gave him access to Drain, which was how he killed those Jedi. Vitiate can't possibly be attributed with that.
@Nova 👆
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious being trained in secret isn't the boon I was referring to. Sidious being capable of operating in secrecy is an immense benefit to his plans, which I [b]assumed was blatantly obvious given those plan. He benefited immeasurably from Bane moving the Order underground and his predecessors continuing in operating in the shadows.I didn't say anything about Sidious' plan, I'm aware that he was largely the mastermind. All I said was that he gained a shitton of Force Knowledge from the efforts of previous RoT Sith and that the previous Sith had amassed large amounts of resources, influence and contacts that he could draw upon. Once again, swing and a miss on your part.
You didn't really respond to anything I said or even truly acknowledge the things that I mentioned. Proving that I was right in my initial suspicion that putting any effort into responding to you would be a waste of time, hence my frustration that you needled me into writing a lot of pointless words. [/B]
Missed this.
First, Sheev operated in secrecy because Sheev chose to operate in secrecy. His entire strategy (the one we just proved was entirely his} around gaining power revolved around being hidden. Not sure how that conscious choice is attributable to his predecessors. Anyone in the Banite line at any point could have elected to act in the manner of historic Sith Lords. The fact that Sheev chose not to be a dumbass isn't some sort of cosmic inheritance he received from on high lol.
Second, no shit Sheev gained a shitton of Force knowledge. So did Vitiate, as part of Ragnos's Sith empire and ruler of an entire Sith world. All he did for a century is study the Force before he stepped into the fray post-Sadow.
Third, Neph, you're far too emotional about all this. It's bad enough that you're wrong and dishonest. But to be so sensitive on top of it? I did acknowledge the shit you posted. I just refuted them. You conflate "acknowledge" with "concede." And maybe if you ever made a salient point, you'd get your wish.
Originally posted by keeoeErm no, Revan is stated to have broken free from the Emperor's influence as soon as he returned from the Unknown Regions and planned to use the power he acculmated to destroy the Emperor ergo. the resultant success of the Jedi Civil War, which would have left resulted in galactic Sith rule if not for Malak's betrayal, was entirely orchestrated by him.
No, there was no genius to the Jedi Civil War. It was Revan's genius that won the Mandalorian War. Revan came back mind****ed and attacked an unsuspecting Republic.
Aside from having the Republic on its knees for a better part of half a century while simultaneously founding another empire in Wild Space?Be specific, when even?
Using your logic, Palpatine's 50 year plan comes crashing down in about 20 years as the line of Banite sith is broken and the Empire is wittled down to the First Order, while a new order of Jedi is born. If we're using a loose definition of failure, then Palpatine is tops at that.And yet he nonetheless succeeded in creating a Galactic Empire, and enforcing Sith rule. Vitiate's endeavours to weaken the Republic using the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War ultimately failed thanks to Revan's intervention, and Vitiates' Sith Empire failed in its endeavor to conquer the galaxy, with Valkorion even writing it off as such. And in so far, the Eternal Empire doesn't look like it will be successful in completing its conquest of the galaxy either.
Altogether, 20 years of unprecedented Sith rulership is better than anything Valkorion has ever accomplished, and likely ever will.
Originally posted by NephthysIt was winning for the first decade, after that they seemed locked in stalemate, then the Republic seized the advantage in the subsequent Cold War and Second Great Galactic War.
The Empire was winning actually. It was only Revan's influence on his mind and his own plans preoccupying him that caused the Sith to settle for the Treaty of Coruscant.
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, it was a result of the Jedi choosing a type of counterattack to the Mandalorians, the Mass Shadow Generator. Vitiate's influence there is incredibly indirect.Moreover, Nihilus wasn't a threat because he was born from Malachor, he was a threat because the Malachor archives gave him access to Drain, which was how he killed those Jedi.
The entire conflict was caused by him, anything that happens in it is because of his influence. Revan's counterattack included.
Which he only did because he was traumatized by the MSG, like the Exile was.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Erm no, Revan is stated to have broken free from the Emperor's influence as soon as he returned from the Unknown Regions and planned to use the power he acculmated to destroy the Emperor ergo. the resultant success of the Jedi Civil War, which would have left resulted in galactic Sith rule if not for Malak's betrayal, was entirely orchestrated by him.
No, Revan is stated by himself to have not broken free and the conflict to have been caused by his and Malak's diseased minds partially blocking Vitiates control only.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The entire conflict was caused by him, anything that happens in it is because of his influence. Revan's counterattack included.Which he only did because he was traumatized by the MSG, like the Exile was.
You're taking tremendous liberties with your logic here. Nihilus being affected by the MSG didn't pose any threat to the Jedi - it was only once he learned Drain that he was a threat. Also, even if he wasn't made "hungry" by the MSG, if he learnt of the Jedi gathering on Katarr and had that level of Drain, he'd be using it anyway.
The fact that Vitiate wasn't even aware of his influences (not aware of the JCW, not aware of the Purge or that the Jedi Order was close to destruction, etc.) is something to deride, indeed. And he's not as influential because the Jedi Order just rebuilt itself in the same way after all of these events. After Order 66, not only did it take much longer for the Jedi to rebuild itself, but it rebuilt itself on entirely new principles.
Originally posted by SunRazer
You're taking tremendous liberties with your logic here. Nihilus being affected by the MSG didn't pose any threat to the Jedi - it was only once he learned Drain that he was a threat. Also, even if he wasn't made "hungry" by the MSG, if he learnt of the Jedi gathering on Katarr and had that level of Drain, he'd be using it anyway.The fact that Vitiate wasn't even aware of his influences (not aware of the JCW, not aware of the Purge or that the Jedi Order was close to destruction, etc.) is something to deride, indeed. And he's not as influential because the Jedi Order just rebuilt itself in the same way after all of these events. After Order 66, not only did it take much longer for the Jedi to rebuild itself, but it rebuilt itself on entirely new principles.
Nihilus learned drain from the destruction of the MSG. It caused him to cut himself off from the Force and develop his hunger and ability.
Vitiates sole goal with the Mando Wars was to **** the Republics shit up. The results of the war are part of his intended goal in that they weakened the Republic. He wasn't aware because he didn't need to micromanage the war or have direct control for it to accomplish his aims.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus learned drain from the destruction of the MSG. It caused him to cut himself off from the Force and develop his hunger and ability.
He didn't learn Drain right from the MSG - he only became a Wound in the Force with it. He might've learnt how to primitively feed off others, but Traya and the Trayus Archives are the only reason that he actually learnt how to harness his power. Katarr would've never happened without it, nor would Sion and his assassins embarked on their sprees. Without those, there'd be even more Jedi floating around than during the Galactic Empire's reign.
It's thanks to Traya and Malachor, not Vitiate, that the Jedi were knocked down to 3+ survivors. And the Exar Kun War, which Vitiate also didn't influence.
Vitiates sole goal with the Mando Wars was to **** the Republics shit up. The results of the war are part of his intended goal in that they weakened the Republic. He wasn't aware because he didn't need to micromanage the war or have direct control for it to accomplish his aims.
Neph, at this point, you're making blatant excuses, and they're getting weaker. If Vitiate had an ounce of self-awareness, he would've taken advantage of the Triumvirate's actions and dominated the Republic in its weakened state and prevented the Jedi Order from ever rebuilding itself. And that would've been a master stroke, and something you can certainly attribute to his influence. Instead, he wasn't aware that the Jedi and the Republic were getting wrecked right outside his doorstep. He could've had a permanent victory, but alas, he was too focused on studying over-complicated rituals of galactic life-draining that only served to fail and weaken him in the future.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He didn't learn Drain right from the MSG - he only became a Wound in the Force with it. He might've learnt how to primitively feed off others, but Traya and the Trayus Archives are the only reason that he actually learnt how to harness his power. Katarr would've never happened without it, nor would Sion and his assassins embarked on their sprees. Without those, there'd be even more Jedi floating around than during the Galactic Empire's reign.It's thanks to Traya and Malachor, not Vitiate, that the Jedi were knocked down to 3+ survivors. And the Exar Kun War, which Vitiate also didn't influence.
You're quibbling now. Becoming a Wound in the Force was how he learned drain. That Traya helped him to enhance his power doesn't change the fact that he got it from the battle.
Traya was also turned to the Darkside by the war, so her influences are related to Vitiates instigations.
I've never said anything about Exar Kun. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Neph, at this point, you're making blatant excuses, and they're getting weaker. If Vitiate had an ounce of self-awareness, he would've taken advantage of the Triumvirate's actions and dominated the Republic in its weakened state and prevented the Jedi Order from ever rebuilding itself. And that would've been a master stroke, and something you can certainly attribute to his influence. Instead, he wasn't aware that the Jedi and the Republic were getting wrecked right outside his doorstep. He could've had a permanent victory, but alas, he was too focused on studying over-complicated rituals of galactic life-draining that only served to fail and weaken him in the future.
This is irrelevant. Again, impressiveness isn't relevant to this discussion. Vitiate's goal was to weaken the Republic which he succeeded at. It's only because Revan and Malak were partially able to throw off his influence that he didn't achieve his perfect victory.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You're quibbling now. Becoming a Wound in the Force was how he learned drain. That Traya helped him to enhance his power doesn't change the fact that he got it from the battle.
Not enhance his power, actually harness it. Before that, he could primitively feed off people. That's not really Drain. He certainly wouldn't have been able to accomplish Katarr without Malachor and Traya. Nor would Sion and the Assassins have been able to embark on their killing sprees.
Traya was also turned to the Darkside by the war, so her influences are related to Vitiates instigations.
She was turned to the dark side by going to the Trayus Academy, not by the war. And she did that after she was exiled. You're now just building a huge chain of links. By your logic, Adas is responsible for all of this.
I've never said anything about Exar Kun. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Keep up, Neph. The Exar Kun War damaged the Jedi Order, and they weren't able to recover from this fully before the Mandalorian Wars came along. That's why the Exar Kun War also played a part in removing Jedi from the Order's ranks, so Vitiate certainly didn't "bring them down to two Jedi".
This is irrelevant. Again, impressiveness isn't relevant to this discussion. Vitiate's goal was to weaken the Republic which he succeeded at. It's only because Revan and Malak were partially able to throw off his influence that he didn't achieve his perfect victory.
The fact that Vitiate didn't care when he lost contact with them and didn't even bother to send a scout out into the greater galaxy smacks of poor strategy. Vitiate is quite the poor strategist, in fact, when it comes to having to make judgments that he doesn't get over a dozen centuries to make up his mind about.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not enhance his power, actually harness it. Before that, he could primitively feed off people. That's not really Drain. He certainly wouldn't have been able to accomplish Katarr without Malachor and Traya. Nor would Sion and the Assassins have been able to embark on their killing sprees.She was turned to the dark side by going to the Trayus Academy, not by the war. And she did that after she was exiled. You're now just building a huge chain of links. By your logic, Adas is responsible for all of this.
Keep up, Neph. The Exar Kun War damaged the Jedi Order, and they weren't able to recover from this fully before the Mandalorian Wars came along. That's why the Exar Kun War also played a part in removing Jedi from the Order's ranks, so Vitiate certainly didn't "bring them down to two Jedi".
The fact that Vitiate didn't care when he lost contact with them and didn't even bother to send a scout out into the greater galaxy smacks of poor strategy. Vitiate is quite the poor strategist, in fact, when it comes to having to make judgments that he doesn't get over a dozen centuries to make up his mind about.
No that is still drain, dunkass. The whole thing was caused by Malachor first and foremost. What happened afterwards is secondary. And having more than 1 factor doesn't diminish said factor.
She was exiled because Revan defied them and because of the war. She went out to Malachor to join Revan. It all stems from the same thing.
Who cares, Exar Kun is irrelevant. His war was 40 years previous, its effects are negligible and unimportant to this discussion. I really couldn't give the slightest shit. So yeah, Vitiate did bring the Jedi down, you trying to shift the blame to Exar Kun is stupid.
I don't ****ing caaaaaaare!
Originally posted by Nephthys
No that is still drain, dunkass. The whole thing was caused by Malachor first and foremost. What happened afterwards is secondary. And having more than 1 factor doesn't diminish said factor.
He couldn't even control his power, lmao, or harness it to begin with. He needed teaching and nurturing for that to happen, and Traya/Malachor provided that. He isn't going to do the Katarr thing by just becoming a Wound in the Force. And you keep ignoring what I said about Sion, so I take it as a concession.
She was exiled because Revan defied them and because of the war. She went out to Malachor to join Revan. It all stems from the same thing.
She was exiled because Revan and many of her other students went to war. If you're going to say Vitiate's the cause of that, then that's a concession on your part. I don't think you'd be able to stretch that hard in anime, to be honest.
Who cares, Exar Kun is irrelevant. His war was 40 years previous, its effects are negligible and unimportant to this discussion. I really couldn't give the slightest shit. So yeah, Vitiate did bring the Jedi down, you trying to shift the blame to Exar Kun is stupid.
30 years, and its effects weren't negligible if the Order never fully recovered from it, especially considering that the Jedi spent another few years engaging in the Great Hunt and losing more Jedi there. Vitiate didn't bring the Jedi down to two people like you were saying. Just own up to your loss. Vitiate didn't bring them down to two people.
And at the end of the day, Palpatine's influence >>> Vitiate's.
I don't ****ing caaaaaaare!
Well, that's another concession to accept.
Okay, just stop responding. We're going in circles now. You don't need to continue this. What you need is a nice, cold bath to get this out of your system. And I accept the concession. It's 2AM here now, I've got to go, but if you do choose to respond, please don't just continue the circle.
Originally posted by The_TempestSpoiler:
Doesn't Neph Logic require that Vitiate's dad be more influential than Vitiate himself? I mean, technically Dramath is responsible for everything Vitiate ever did by siring him, and he ruled an entire world for decades prior to that.mmm
👆 The infinite regression argument.
"He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed.
“But though we had underestimated the Emperor’s power, he underestimated us, as well. Our wills were stronger than he thought; our minds twisted and perverted his instructions until we thought we were acting of our own accord. Malak and I were turned to the dark side, but in doing so we found the strength to block out all memory of the Sith and the Emperor, partially freeing us from his control.”
Sounds like Neph is wrong. But that can't be right.