Originally posted by Beniboybling
Palpatine didn't get punked by the rebels, he got punked by prophecy, if it wasn't for that the Battle of Endor would have been the master stroke it was intended to be, and the Rebel Alliance would have been basically finished.
Wouldn't he have died when Lando blew up the Death Star II either way though?
Luke was able to escape while dragging his father out and then witnessing his death scene...
Even then he would've just resurrected more powerful than ever; he only lost because the Chosen One happened to have twins, and one of them happened to be pregnant.
Literally the Force itself had to act to defeat Sidious. Vitiate was beaten by a Jedi Knight and an astromech droid.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? The Exile couldn't control her power. That doesn't mean it wasn't directly and solely caused by the Battle of Malachor. Just like Nihilus' power was caused by it as well. That he was taught to control is is irrelevant. He was caused by Malachor, end of story. Sion's assassins were born from Malachor as well, they learned their abilities from Nihilus and the Exile.
So what? None of this would've happened if it weren't for Malachor's teachings, which is blatantly obvious. Malachor, not Vitiate, is the reason that we got Katarr, that we got Sion's assassination sprees, etc.
You can keep establishing these links for as long as you want. Eventually, you'll get to Naga Sadow inciting the Great Hyperspace War, which is the reason that Vitiate did everything afterwards, so Sadow is the most influential character in the mythos?
The war that Vitiate caused to weaken the Jedi and the Republic. I don't know how you think this is a concession on my part.
So since Vitiate indirectly incited a war, and Kreia was exiled because her students went to that war, and in her exile, Kreia went to the Malachor and fell to the dark side, and she used the teachings from the Archives to train Nihilus and Sion, and Nihilus and Sion hunted down the rest of the Jedi, and Kreia had to bring back Surik to stop them, and Surik trained Mira as a Jedi... so Vitiate is responsible for Mira becoming a Jedi?
Not that this matters. Sadow is responsible for everything Vitiate did.
That doesn't follow at all. Maul and Savage killed some Jedi too. I guess Sidious doesn't get credit for his thing then! Just because small amounts of Jedi died in other ways doesn't cancel out the fact that the Jedi Purge is what caused them to drop to such small numbers. They would have fallen to those numbers regardless of Kun or the Great Hunt. The Purge was overwhelmingly the cause of their downfall. And not being fully recovered just mean they weren't at 100%, not that they were at 50% or something.
I'm glad you cited the Purge, because Vitiate wasn't responsible for it.
To what? I told you that whether or not Vitiate is a master planner is pointless to this discussion about influence, not impressiveness. I don't care if you think he's shitty at strategy, it's utterly worthless to bring it up.
Well, it's not worthless if you're getting angry over it.
Anyway, Sidious' accomplishments still outstrip Valkorion's. Sidious' reign was the first (and only) time that the Galactic Republic was toppled.
"I'm going to respond but please don't reply because then I get the last word and get to smugly say you conceded to me." Yeah, sure. 😬
Well, if that's the way you want to word it, okay. But as I predicted, we're still going in circles, so the only thing we have left is to agree-to-disagree.