Valkoriate vs. Sheev

The advantage of the Outlander's shit body that was being poisoned that he had to keep alive constantly for five years?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Round one:

With both characters at their peak, who would win in a 1v1 battle? Assume the contest takes place in the empty Geonosian arena as depicted in Episode II, a neutral environment.

It's hard to say. Much like the Talzin fight, because of the nature of these two's power, it's very likely that Sidious' physical and martial superiority wouldn't even come into play after the first clash. On top of that, a lot of his larger-scale powers like the Force Storm probably aren't viable; summoning something like that here would put him in as much danger as his opponent.

On the flip side, the fact that his martial skills aren't viable doesn't change that he should be a more skilled combatant. Valkorion is a mostly self-trained scholar who was so overwhelmingly powerful in his era that no one could ever challenge him. Sidious is a Banite Sith Lord who was trained in the art of killing and has had competition to test his skills against in the form of Yoda and Plagueis. I think this could potentially give him an edge, even if Valkorion possesses more raw power.

Either way, both are so incredibly powerful and incredibly knowledgeable that it's difficult to predict exactly how this would go down. The odds are that neither of them will actually be able to permanently kill the other's spirit anyway though, so I guess if Palpatine did wind up on the losing end, he could summon a Force Storm and pettily destroy them both. I'll side with him.

Round two:

As a separate issue, which character is more cosmologically powerful? Your considerations should include applications of the Force in terms of both scale and skill, direct and indirect, destructive and passive. tl;dr: consider might and mastery.

It's close, but I'm siding with Palpatine here. As I mentioned above, I toy with the idea that Valkorion might have more "might" as you put it, but the scale that Palpatine generally operates on is simply bigger regardless.

It's not necessarily that Valkorion is less masterful or knowledgeable; he's had a millennium to learn and master esoteric powers, and I'm sure he knows things that Palpatine doesn't, and vice versa.

However, from shifting the balance of the force to his galaxy-spanning battle meditation, it's hard not to give Palpatine the edge at this point. He's done that and virtually everything Valkorion's done, just more subtly and efficiently, which in of itself is a point in his favor honestly.

I will say that Valkorion does have one very important thing on Palpatine right now, though; the fact that he (supposedly) no longer needs a host to prosper. If what he said in Chapter II is true, that's a pretty damn major point for him.

Round three:

Which character is more important? Consider the depth and scope of their geopolitical, historical, and cosmological achievements.

Well, obviously Sidious is infinitely more important from an out-of-universe perspective.

From an in-universe perspective, though? It's harder to say; we haven't seen the state of the galaxy 3,000 years after Palpatine's fall, so we can't outline the impacts or lack of thereof that remain. It's worth pointing out that as a thousand-year-old being, Valkorion has influenced and affected more galactic events than Sidious has personally, I guess. At the same time, Palpatine's dominion over the galaxy was (from what we currently know) more impressive and long-lived than Valkorion's, as we were still seeing the Imperial faction as far forward as Legacy. Then again we don't know anything about the fate of Zakuul, so these facts are far form set in stone. Answering this question will be much easier once KOTFE is over, but for now I get the impression that Emperor Palpatine was the more precedent historical figure of the two.

---

TL;DR:

1. Sidious
2. Sidious
3. Sidious

...Maybe. Probably. More or less.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The advantage of the Outlander's shit body that was being poisoned that he had to keep alive constantly for five years?

And then there is Zakuul, a planet strong in the Force. 🙂

The Outlander was dying, and Valkorion is now weaker. That's a prime vessel right thur.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Poisoned or not, it was still a vessel he could anchor himself to upon dying, when it was perfectly healthy. Much less than what Palpatine had.

And then there is Zakuul, a planet strong in the Force. 🙂

And right, prolly cause he no longer possesses a sufficient vessel/body to sustain himself.

It's a shit vessel, Beni. And Palpatine obviously doesn't like shit vessels, or he'd possess one of the many bodies there. And it wasn't perfectly healthy because it had an explosion in its face that was followed by being poisoned for five years. And obviously Zakuul isn't strong enough in the Force to stop poison, so meh.

Pretty much agreed with NewGuy.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's a shit vessel, Beni. And Palpatine obviously doesn't like shit vessels, or he'd possess one of the many bodies there. And it wasn't perfectly healthy because it had an explosion in its face that was followed by being poisoned for five years. And obviously Zakuul isn't strong enough in the Force to stop poison, so meh.

Lmao, evidently his body isn't as crappy as you believe, consdering even with carbonite poisoning the Outlander remains one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, funny how all that wank you've ascribed him till now has melted away.

And what many bodies? Regardless you're wrong since considering Palpatine survived by possessing one of his hands.

Obviously any anchor is a good anchor when faced with the threat of the bodiless void. And the Outlander was far better than most.

And cool, neither was Valkorion. So either that poisioning was really bad, Valkorion is crappy in general, or he was holding something back. Take your pick. 🙂

I'm sorry, you're looking for sense in KotFE? Well, sorry to disappoint you; you want find any. It'll probably be revealed next season that Valkorion is your real father, because why not. It certainly looks like they teased with the idea.

Kek, that's because the Eternal Empire killed everyone else.

I'm sure he could have picked any random near him when he died if Palpatine is body hoping. Apparently the Smuggler is good enough for Valkorion.

If you just jump on the idea of the Outlander being the HoT while ignoring they can be anyone, sure.

Have you played KotFE yet, Beni? I'm starting to think you haven't, and know you haven't 12. All will become clear in time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sheev is canon Palpatine who probably loses. Assuming Legends:

Palpatine crushes him. If the two are comparable, or if Valky is marginally superior in the Force, Vitiate won't be able to kill Palpatine before he forces a melee, and then Valkorion obviously gets sliced and diced. His only hope of victory is to win really, really quickly, and that's only possible if he substantially outclasses Palpatine in the Force.

He doesn't, though; the reverse is closer to being true. Palpatine outmatches his greatest destructive feat (Force storms are more destructive than Ziost, and done without prep, a ritual or nexus), exceeds him in telepathy (dominating Luke and Vader >> not being able to dominate Scourge or the Outlander), exceeds him in telekinesis (muses that he can destroy the kilometers long imperial palace, is far more powerful than Vader+Starkiller, both of which have feats on the level of manipulating and destroying capital ships vs. destroying a random temple on a nexus), exceeds him in Force lightning (overloading Yoda's tutanimus >>> killing Darth Marr and random weaklings) and [b]vastly exceeds him in Force speed (blitzing three celebrated Jedi masters + pre-vaapad Windu). Valkorion's only potential advantages come with rituals and sorcery that are useless in a one vs. one confrontation.

Sidious is also a more experienced and capable combatant, having trained with Plagueis by fighting and deflecting fire from hundreds of battle droids decades before his prime, while the Revan novel shows us how awful in actual confrontations Valkorion is whenever he actually has to fight someone.

Sidious is more powerful in the Force, and even if he weren't, he'd still win by virtue of being much faster and deadlier.

Palpatine, and it's only marginally closer than round 1.

Destruction: Palpatine's Force storms threatened to "consume all of space". Even if you dismiss that quote as outlandish, they still demonstrate a far greater destructive ability than anything Vitiate has ever done, and can be performed without a ritual or nexus.

Telepathy (large scale): Valkorion does have impressive feats in this category, but once again, most of them are done on a nexus or via rituals, and Palpatine matches them with Byss. Palpatine needs neither to remove a specific memory from the minds of trillions of witnesses. He also manages to shroud the Force abilities of the Jedi Order at its peak, to the point where it couldn't detect him sitting right under its nose.

Telepathy (individual): Palpatine can mind fugg Vader from across the galaxy and force DE Luke to forget his name and become his apprentice, although the latter did happen on a DS nexus. Valkorion can mind fugg mando wars Revan and a few featless Sith and Jedi with prep and a dark side nexus, but he cannot do so to the Outlander.

Foresight: Palpatine is able to foresee and concoct elaborate plans throughout both the PT and OT, outmaneuver the most powerful Jedi Order in history, divine Anakin's fears and premonitions, etc. Valkorion was tricked by Revan into fearing a ravaged Republic with no army and virtually no Jedi Order.

Combat: see above. It's Palpatine and it's not even close.

Sorcery and rituals: This is typically Valkorion's strong suit, and he can point to Nathema, Ziost and some other impressive demonstrations of his abilities. Granted, Sidious didn't have several thousand gullible sith lords to work with, but it is still a point in Valkorion's favor. Palpatine strikes back with his cloaking himself from and shrouding the minds of the entire Jedi Order, and possibly the most impressive application in the mythos, wrestling with the Force and knocking it out of balance with the aid of Plagueis. He also claims in the Plagueis novel to also be able to manipulate midichlorians like his master, although apparently not to the same extent. Vitiate does have his galaxy-consuming ritual that would probably be the most impressive feat in all of Star Wars, but he never actually does it, so I'm going to remain skeptical. I'd say that they've shown different strengths in this category, although most of Vitiate's come from having the opportunity and more Sith to take advantage of, whereas Palpatine's are done under more or less his own exertion.

Immortality: Vitiate has a longer natural lifespan, although he accomplished this due to having lots of Sith lackeys that Sidious lacked. He is also more powerful in his spirit form, and can exist and act in multiple places at once, which Sidious can't. He might have an advantage here, but thanks to rituals that require large concentrations of gullible Force users.

Just through tabulating the number of people they affected, it's probably Valkorion, given that he ruled around a quarter of the galaxy for 1300 years and then affects the entire galaxy for like 100. Palpatine's Empire was far more massive, but existed for a fraction of the time, and Valkorion having lived longer ago benefits from this metric through butterfly effects on progeny, etc. If we look from the perspective of, say, 1000 years after ANH, Palpatine would have probably exceeded him.

In terms of impact on the Force, it's clearly Palpatine, given that he knocks it off-balance and forces the creation of the Skywalker family line.

In terms of political impact, Palpatine overthrew a Galactic Republic and Jedi Order that had existed more less continuously for 25,000 years. Valkorion failed.

In terms of impressiveness, taking that leap from controlling a quarter-half of the galaxy to controlling all of it and exterminating the Jedi Order is far more impressive than tricking some Sith Lords and then hiding in the outer rim for 1300 years before waging war and failing. And Palpatine does this all in a fraction of the time and with a fraction of the help, against far more powerful enemies including the creation of the Force itself and his progeny. [/B]

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Eeeeeeeeh, and Leia wasn't using Force Harmony then, just unclouding Luke's mind. Though it does say she helped him use his potential more, before that Luke's stated to be on par with Obi-Wan.

Luke was just being humble - his feats and third-party accolades put him above Obi Wan by RotJ. But yeah, Luke was using an unknown amount of his potential, so we can't really compare this defeat to how well Valkorion would have done.

I beg to differ. Slaughtering his way through the scions, blocking Valkorion's lightning, overwhelming the HoT,

The circular argument with Valky's lightning aside (which is actually a point against Valkorion), none of these feats compare with:

YouTube video

Not to mention inventing the deadliest lightsaber form, pushing an AT-TE off a cliff, etc.

Even with backup this guy couldn't do shit do Sidious for the first several seconds of their duel.

and surviving several pieces of structure falling on him, as well as a the height he fell from Asylum's control tower with only so much as a few bruises

Anakin humiliates this feat as a padawan... 😆

is as impressive as the team that was blitzed and the Windu that is on par with Dooku and is implied to have been allowed to win.

The throwing-the-fight notion seems to be unsupported by Lucas's commentary; you could make the case that he feigned weakness with his Force lightning, but he legitimately lost the duel.

(and you know that would actually be a point in Sidious's favor...)

Windu and the entire B-team are likely a more formidable foe than Arcann by feats, accolades, and pretty much everything. I'm not seeing anything to suggest otherwise.

By that same token, Revan needed to wait until Vitiate was focusing his TP on him to knock him down, and can't handle his Lightning.

How is it an impressive feat to be strong enough to not be ragdolled by Revan without being distracted? 😬

Revan can't handle his charged lightning. He was able to knock his uncharged lightning on his ass. Yoda is just powerful enough to survive Sidious's uncharged lightning; I think the latter puts a higher ceiling on Palpatine's power.

No, he just needs to do it a ton of times, which frankly has the same effect.

Uh, no? He clearly knocks Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand and comes really close to overwhelming him with it. This is a lot more impressive than needing several seconds to charge an attack against Revan.

Yeah, because you can compare someone at their best to when they aren't paying attention at all.

Well that's my point - Vitiate is a shit tactician who doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings because everyone he fights are weaklings next to him.

Except he does it twice and we see how impressive his Lightning can be? It's really not in question that he can one shot a Dark Council.

Then why doesn't he just do this to everyone? It just happens to be that he does this with prep in his fortress, and nowhere else.

Yeah, having more feats doesn't make you more impressive. They kind of need to match up, and the vast majority of the B-Team doesn't exactly match up to the HoT or Braga.

But Windu does. Sidious overwhelms pre-vaapad Windu and the B-team. The B-team has better feats than HoT and Braga's allies, and Windu has better feats than early-game HoT/Braga. Ergo, Sidious's feat is more impressive.

Thing is, it's implied Sidious would have crushed Windu regardless, so while it's not a bad showing for Sidious, using the B-Team as a bench mark falls flat.

I don't understand this sentence, and I'm too lazy to go back to the context - I can just say that I'm more impressed with Sidious's blitzing the B-team than Vitiate not being able to do so to Scourge and Meetra, and I'm more impressed with Sidious being able to overwhelm Yoda than Vitiate having his lightning knocked back at him by Revan.

While that's true, Valkorion also relies mainly on keeping the fight at a distance and overwhelming defenses when you get in to close. It's not like he can't just block Sidious' lightsaber and overwhelm him when he's not far enough away to prepare properly. That being said, Sidious obviously has the power to go toe-to-toe with him, which is why I said I don't know who'd win head to head.

I highly doubt that Valkorion can block Sidious's attacks just because he can block Arcann's.

@ NewGuy

While I agree with the majority of your post, I have to point out one thing;

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The odds are that neither of them will actually be able to permanently kill the other's spirit anyway

Now, while Sidious cannot unleash powerful attacks that can do lethal damage to Valkorion's spirit,

...Says who? Just because someone can't affect the material plane doesn't mean that they can't effect the corporeal plane, just like vice versa.

Valkorion can unless planetary scale attacks that kill anything they touch.

And I still call into question whether or not Valkorion did this entirely without a host; after all, he supposedly had a huge chunk of the planetary population under his control when the feat was performed.

The most important aspect of that attack is that it consumes the force energies of its targets, and Sidious being a force spirit would be exposed to the attack. So, while Sidious can't kill Valkorion's spirit, Valkorion can drain Sidious' spirit.

Doubt it. In the Inquisitor storyline it's stated numerous times that in the TOR era there are no known teachings that allow Sith to devour souls, despite drain related techniques being commonplace. You could make the argument that Vitiate knows Hord's lost arts and just hid them from everybody else, but that argument would have no basis.

Sheev

What a bunch of sheev fangirls. Lowbawling Valkorion's feats and accomplishments is the only tactic you all have.

Respect for Sinious though. He loves Palpatine but he is also objective.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Don't worry, Valkorion will go the way of Bane soon enough. It'll take longer though, his followers are nothing like we've ever seen before.

Tempest and Carthage, do this.

I'll respond in kind for Sheev.

😂

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What a bunch of sheev fangirls. Lowbawling Valkorion's feats and accomplishments is the only tactic you all have.

Respect for Sinious though. He loves Palpatine but he is also objective.

Objective means agreeing with his take on it. Everybody else is a fangirl.

Irony being he's the only one whose resorted to petty name calling. 😂