The most dangerous adversaries pitted against each other

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sheev is more powerful but let's not get carried away here. Kenobi used the force offensively against Grievous so he won't hesitate to apply that when appropriate. Kenobi just doesn't have the fl power.

Again, why are you comparing Kenobi and Palpatine? Sidious has opened fights with Force attacks, he's done it against guards and he's done it against the likes of Yoda and Maul/Savage. You need to explain why he's just going to fight Khan honorably or something (not that it would change the outcome).

Yes, the guards had time to shoot him but screamed, "Halt," instead. They had no idea who that was and what he was capable of.

If Sidious wants the first strike, his precognition basically ensures that he's going to get it in before Khan can aim his phaser and pull a trigger. Regardless, what difference does it make if he gets to fire a few shots? It's not like Sidious can't deflect projectiles, but Khan can't really stop the Force from breaking his neck.

Maul still managed to kick him and the application of his force powers shows he won't use them in the most effective way. He just knocked him around he didn't go for the kill. Sheev cackled throughout that fight and didn't deem him a threat he needed to put down ASAP.

🙄 Oh for f*cks sake, it's not like he needs to be Hannibal to figure to crush the non-Force sensitive's neck with telekinesis, lol. He does this to the two non-Force sensitives we see him engage with. The fact that he wants to toy with his former apprentice is irrelevant - he has no such desires with Khan. We have no reason to think he'll take him any more seriously than those two guards he unceremoniously chokes.

1.) Whose neck has Sheev snapped ?

He chokes two guards, but why does he need to show that particular maneuver to be able to defeat Khan from a distance? He is obviously powerful enough to, given that he can fling giant metal senate pods, it's hardly an enormous leap in logic to say that he can apply that force to someone's neck. Do I need to show that he's choked a particular guy named Khan at this particular location too? 🙄

2.) When has he done so ? This is assuming he attacks first when based off the majority of the evidence he doesn't frequently do so.

He ragdolls Maul, during which he's effectively immobile.

He does frequently do so when facing non-Force sensitives. He doesn't give a sh*t about dueling with them.

3.) Khan has two guns. They put holes in people as opposed to fl which Luke walked away from with no injuries. Khan has resisted 8 stun shots before.

Sheev was torturing Luke, otherwise he'd have just cut his head off. His lightning is powerful enough to send Mace Windu flying hundreds of feet out of the window, and his telekinesis is presumably comparable to/stronger than Vader's, which can crush starfighters and knock over AT-ATs. I don't care if Khan can resist stun shots.

4.) Khan doesn't typically go around trying to engage in melee unless he has to and he's been shown very capable of using knives, close quarters combat, etc. to quickly dispose or incapacitate his opponents.

Then he's f*cked, because Sidious will just take his phaser out of his hand and then crush his windpipe.

Based off what can Sheev deflect the Phaser cannon ? It emits a wider beam and is a lot more powerful than the blaster fire the lightsabers are shown to deflect.

The new movie phasers aren't, no. And lol @ them being more powerful than blaster bolts that can make grape-sized holes in durasteel walls.

Sheev is a guy who manipulates behind the scenes and used galactic armies to achieve his goals. Khan is one surhuman badass resisting a galactic power along with the Enterprise crew without any assistance outside of manipulation.

I don't think you're being serious, but I would point out that Sheev single-handedly succeeded in overthrowing a galactic government and Jedi Order which had existed continuously for 25,000 years, while defeating the most powerful Jedi in galactic history in single combat, and ruling effectively unchallenged for twenty years before finally losing to a literal in-universe deus ex machina. Khan died without doing anything in a few days.

Not that it matters to the fight.

This thread is the embodiment of why everyone trashes on you, Quan. I'm going to humor you for a moment. Say we do only use movie showings, hell I'll even be generous and give Khan his shit from when he wrecked all those Klingons on Qo'nos. Sidious has his precognition abilities to anticipate when and what Khan is going to do, be it shoot with the cannon thing, the rifle, or simply make a simple movement. He also has his lightsaber, which can absorbe or deflect the phaser blasts Khan fires at him, and the cannon is no threat to someone who can jump higher or simply move out of the way faster than Khan could ever possibly hope to. Khan also has no defense against Sheev's FL or TK. I hate using this word in this way, but this thread is straight up retarded

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Again, why are you comparing Kenobi and Palpatine? Sidious has opened fights with Force attacks, he's done it against guards and he's done it against the likes of Yoda and Maul/Savage. You need to explain why he's just going to fight Khan honorably or something (not that it would change the outcome).

If Sidious wants the first strike, his precognition basically ensures that he's going to get it in before Khan can aim his phaser and pull a trigger. Regardless, what difference does it make if he gets to fire a few shots? It's not like Sidious can't deflect projectiles, but Khan can't really stop the Force from breaking his neck.

🙄 Oh for f*cks sake, it's not like he needs to be Hannibal to figure to crush the non-Force sensitive's neck with telekinesis, lol. He does this to the two non-Force sensitives we see him engage with. The fact that he wants to toy with his former apprentice is irrelevant - he has no such desires with Khan. We have no reason to think he'll take him any more seriously than those two guards he unceremoniously chokes.

He chokes two guards, but why does he need to show that particular maneuver to be able to defeat Khan from a distance? He is obviously powerful enough to, given that he can fling giant metal senate pods, it's hardly an enormous leap in logic to say that he can apply that force to someone's neck. Do I need to show that he's choked a particular guy named Khan at this particular location too? 🙄

He ragdolls Maul, during which he's effectively immobile.

He does frequently do so when facing non-Force sensitives. He doesn't give a sh*t about dueling with them.

Sheev was torturing Luke, otherwise he'd have just cut his head off. His lightning is powerful enough to send Mace Windu flying hundreds of feet out of the window, and his telekinesis is presumably comparable to/stronger than Vader's, which can crush starfighters and knock over AT-ATs. I don't care if Khan can resist stun shots.

Then he's f*cked, because Sidious will just take his phaser out of his hand and then crush his windpipe.

The new movie phasers aren't, no. And lol @ them being more powerful than blaster bolts that can make grape-sized holes in durasteel walls.

I don't think you're being serious, but I would point out that Sheev single-handedly succeeded in overthrowing a galactic government and Jedi Order which had existed continuously for 25,000 years, while defeating the most powerful Jedi in galactic history in single combat, and ruling effectively unchallenged for twenty years before finally losing to a literal in-universe deus ex machina. Khan died without doing anything in a few days.

Not that it matters to the fight.

First things first now. The Mandalorian guards had multiple seconds to fire first and said halt. Their guns were raised and they shouted a word before Palpatine attacked. They had multiple seconds to fire on him.

Secondly, he spoke and it took him two seconds to execute the attack. That isn't quick at all. He spoke, he forewarned, and when all was said and done it took two seconds to pull this off. Horribly slow.

Not even honorably but foolishly and arrogantly describes how he takes opponents on. Khan takes them on ruthlessly.

No, it doesn't. Where was precognition when he let Yoda get to his feet and he force pushed him. He gave him over thirty seconds of recovery time to regain himself to mount a counter offensive. At this point the "COWARD" aka Sheev tries to leap it of the room and danger. Yoda is a dash ahead of him and prevents his escape.

When has Sidious on scree deflected something as powerful and as wide as the phaser cannon ?

Choking is toying with his foes. Snapping someone's neck or killing them as soon as possible isn't. All of the hiards were not aware of what they were up with and were choked. That isn't the case here.

Let's examine that slippery slope a little further. Ok you say hey why is it a stretch since he can effortlessly toss a senate pod. Well the answer is so can Yoda. Why didn't Yoda break Sheev's neck when he force pushed him ? That isn't how it works. You can't just apply the powers in an advantageous manner in which you've never seen applied on screen. I am not saying it's an impossibility I am saying it's an unlikelihood.

He does ragdoll Maul but he doesn't defeat him with his first attack so why do you assume he will end someone with superhuman resiliency. Seems a bit of a stretch. Khan recovers very, very, very quickly does Maul ? Nah.

Based off the evidence Khan fires quicker than Sheev uses his force powers. We can compare the showings if you'd like to time them out. If you doubt my claim that is.

Sheev was torturing him before but said he'd now die. He made his intentions clear. Luke still survived a prolonged assault of it. Yes, the fl can send a victim backward out a window to plummet to their death. Just like a force push can. Windu just lot a hand and was reeling in pain completely vulnerable right next to a window. Nothing to get excited about.

So ? You need applications not abc logic that Sheev rips heads off before someone can blink based off Vader took down an At At in a comic type reasoning.

Khan fires quicker than Sheev applies his force powers based off the evidence and the behavior/consistency of the characters.

We can base it off of what these blasters do to armored bodies. The new phaser cannon makes blasters look pathetic by comparison. It isn't close.

Sheev was an unknown behind tone scenes in a much better situation. He never had an empire on his ass. The Jedi weren't even aware of his ulterior motives. Much easier to work in the shadows then being awakened to serving some Starfleet high ranking douchebag obsessed with exploiting you for your ruthless and brilliant mind. Khan broke free and eventually crushes his skull. Khan was by himself whereas Palpatine worked in the shadows manipulating and using his clone army to clip the Jedi order before they knew what hit them after Anakin betrayed Windu.

Khan also didn't die there and he won't die here.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
This thread is the embodiment of why everyone trashes on you, Quan. I'm going to humor you for a moment. Say we do only use movie showings, hell I'll even be generous and give Khan his shit from when he wrecked all those Klingons on Qo'nos. Sidious has his precognition abilities to anticipate when and what Khan is going to do, be it shoot with the cannon thing, the rifle, or simply make a simple movement. He also has his lightsaber, which can absorbe or deflect the phaser blasts Khan fires at him, and the cannon is no threat to someone who can jump higher or simply move out of the way faster than Khan could ever possibly hope to. Khan also has no defense against Sheev's FL or TK. I hate using this word in this way, but this thread is straight up retarded

Precognition didn't help

1). Windu kick his saber away in defeat.

2). Yoda force pushes him after he gave him over a half a minute to recover after the fl. Sheev is an idiot.

3). Despite knowing Vader had internal conflict in him Sheev didn't see Vader turning on him without a hand. His reflexes and precog utterly failed against a slow, one handed, slower moving cyborg.

That's evidence not your bias talking. Let's stick to the facts not preconceived notions. Let's go Sheev fans.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Both have tk which you claimed decimates those without it.

Since when does Into Darkness Khan have telekinesis? If he does, since when has he applied it to a fraction of the effect of Sidious's?

First things first now. The Mandalorian guards had multiple seconds to fire first and said halt. Their guns were raised and they shouted a word before Palpatine attacked. They had multiple seconds to fire on him.

Secondly, he spoke and it took him two seconds to execute the attack. That isn't quick at all. He spoke, he forewarned, and when all was said and done it took two seconds to pull this off. Horribly slow.

Not even honorably but foolishly and arrogantly describes how he takes opponents on. Khan takes them on ruthlessly.

OK, let's just assume that he'll recognize Khan for the insignificant pest that he is and wait a few seconds before slowly choking him to death. What does this change? Khan draws his phaser and fires a few shots, Sidious deflects them with his lightsaber, dodges them, palms them, stops them midair, and/or crushes his gun. Then he slowly chokes Khan to death, who obviously isn't going to be able to do much as his windpipe is restricted.

How does this change anything?

No, it doesn't. Where was precognition when he let Yoda get to his feet and he force pushed him. He gave him over thirty seconds of recovery time to regain himself to mount a counter offensive. At this point the "COWARD" aka Sheev tries to leap it of the room and danger. Yoda is a dash ahead of him and prevents his escape.

😆 So because Yoda manages to surprise him, you just assume Khan can? They obviously have comparable speed feats, lol.

When has Sidious on scree deflected something as powerful and as wide as the phaser cannon ?

Blaster bolts that can make three-inch wide holes in durasteel walls?

Also, there's more to the canon than the movies, lol.

And once again, this distinction is irrelevant because he can just crush his gun.

Choking is toying with his foes. Snapping someone's neck or killing them as soon as possible isn't. All of the hiards were not aware of what they were up with and were choked. That isn't the case here.

Jesus f*cking christ. This is the same generic cookie cutter response that everyone who's arguing against a Force user employs when they lack a real argument; they just assume that the Force user in question won't do the most obvious maneuver, even when everyone agrees that they are capable of doing it, just because they say so.

Regardless, it doesn't matter if he chokes Khan to death or snaps his neck; either way, he dies.

Let's examine that slippery slope a little further. Ok you say hey why is it a stretch since he can effortlessly toss a senate pod. Well the answer is so can Yoda. Why didn't Yoda break Sheev's neck when he force pushed him ? That isn't how it works. You can't just apply the powers in an advantageous manner in which you've never seen applied on screen. I am not saying it's an impossibility I am saying it's an unlikelihood.

😐

Yoda doesn't do it to Palpatine because Palpatine is a powerful Force user. Khan is just a human with modestly superhuman durability, nothing that someone who can crush durasteel can't overcome. The notion of equation the two is hilarious.

He does ragdoll Maul but he doesn't defeat him with his first attack so why do you assume he will end someone with superhuman resiliency. Seems a bit of a stretch. Khan recovers very, very, very quickly does Maul ? Nah.

🤣

Maul survived getting cut in half and thrown into a well, and you're trying to brag about Khan surviving a few stun bolts?

Regardless, I've already responded to this, which you would've noticed if you'd actually use the quote function properly. Sidious has a reason to toy with Maul; Khan, meanwhile, is an insignificant nobody to him. He'll just choke him like he chokes the two guards.

Based off the evidence Khan fires quicker than Sheev uses his force powers. We can compare the showings if you'd like to time them out. If you doubt my claim that is.

WTF are you talking about? The Force acts instantaneously and without even a gesture; Khan has to raise his phaser, aim it, and then fire. This isn't even considering Sheev's ability to see things before they f*cking happen. The only "evidence" you've brought to the contrary is that Sheev waits a little bit before choking those two guards, which you take to conclude that he's somehow incapable of choking them sooner, and that he would've done the same thing if his precognition had told him that they were about to fire at him.

It's almost like you'll need a video of Padme pooping to accept that she takes shits.

Sheev was torturing him before but said he'd now die. He made his intentions clear. Luke still survived a prolonged assault of it. Yes, the fl can send a victim backward out a window to plummet to their death. Just like a force push can. Windu just lot a hand and was reeling in pain completely vulnerable right next to a window. Nothing to get excited about.

This is just a horrible misunderstanding of basic dialogue. He says that "you will die". This doesn't mean "you will die and I'm going to kill you in the quickest, most efficient way possible", or else he would've just chopped his head off. TCW shows us that Dooku's lightning can kill; Sidious can toss someone hundreds of feet with it, there's clearly no question that he could have killed Luke quickly if he wanted to.

BTW, you do realize that Luke himself was an extremely powerful Jedi, right?

Also, you realize that this tangent is irrelevant to the topic at hand, because a Khan writhing in pain still can't do jack shit but die slowly, right?

So ? You need applications not abc logic that Sheev rips heads off before someone can blink based off Vader took down an At At in a comic type reasoning.

Just dismissing arguments with hackneyed catchphrases like "abc logic" doesn't fly. If Vader were orders of magnitude stronger than Palpatine in telekinesis, he would've just crushed his master with a gesture. He evidently cannot do that.

Not that this matters anyway; Sheev is clearly more than capable of using the Force to kill or ragdoll, given that he can fling senate pods.

Khan fires quicker than Sheev applies his force powers based off the evidence and the behavior/consistency of the characters.

Who cares even if this were true? Just blast his blasts or take his gun away.

We can base it off of what these blasters do to armored bodies. The new phaser cannon makes blasters look pathetic by comparison. It isn't close.

No, it isn't. Trust me, these kinds of sci-fi debates are my specialty; if you can show me phaser blasts that match this:

Or this:

Or anything here:

YouTube video

let me know.

Sheev was an unknown behind tone scenes in a much better situation. He never had an empire on his ass. The Jedi weren't even aware of his ulterior motives. Much easier to work in the shadows then being awakened to serving some Starfleet high ranking douchebag obsessed with exploiting you for your ruthless and brilliant mind. Khan broke free and eventually crushes his skull. Khan was by himself whereas Palpatine worked in the shadows manipulating and using his clone army to clip the Jedi order before they knew what hit them after Anakin betrayed Windu.

So being able to fool the entire Galactic Republic, along with the most powerful Jedi Order in the mythos, should be counted against him?

Khan also didn't die there and he won't die here.

Who cares? He lost.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Since when does Into Darkness Khan have telekinesis? If he does, since when has he applied it to a fraction of the effect of Sidious's?

OK, let's just assume that he'll recognize Khan for the insignificant pest that he is and wait a few seconds before slowly choking him to death. What does this change? Khan draws his phaser and fires a few shots, Sidious deflects them with his lightsaber, dodges them, palms them, stops them midair, and/or crushes his gun. Then he slowly chokes Khan to death, who obviously isn't going to be able to do much as his windpipe is restricted.

How does this change anything?

😆 So because Yoda manages to surprise him, you just assume Khan can? They obviously have comparable speed feats, lol.

Blaster bolts that can make three-inch wide holes in durasteel walls?

Also, there's more to the canon than the movies, lol.

And once again, this distinction is irrelevant because he can just crush his gun.

Jesus f*cking christ. This is the same generic cookie cutter response that everyone who's arguing against a Force user employs when they lack a real argument; they just assume that the Force user in question won't do the most obvious maneuver, even when everyone agrees that they are capable of doing it, just because they say so.

Regardless, it doesn't matter if he chokes Khan to death or snaps his neck; either way, he dies.

😐

Yoda doesn't do it to Palpatine because Palpatine is a powerful Force user. Khan is just a human with modestly superhuman durability, nothing that someone who can crush durasteel can't overcome. The notion of equation the two is hilarious.

🤣

Maul survived [b]getting cut in half and thrown into a well, and you're trying to brag about Khan surviving a few stun bolts?

Regardless, I've already responded to this, which you would've noticed if you'd actually use the quote function properly. Sidious has a reason to toy with Maul; Khan, meanwhile, is an insignificant nobody to him. He'll just choke him like he chokes the two guards.

WTF are you talking about? The Force acts instantaneously and without even a gesture; Khan has to raise his phaser, aim it, and then fire. This isn't even considering Sheev's ability to see things before they f*cking happen. The only "evidence" you've brought to the contrary is that Sheev waits a little bit before choking those two guards, which you take to conclude that he's somehow incapable of choking them sooner, and that he would've done the same thing if his precognitionhundreds of feet with it, there's clearly no question that he could have killed Luke quickly if he wanted to.

BTW, you do realize that Luke himself was an extremely powerful Jedi, right?

Also, you realize that this tangent is irrelevant to the topic at hand, because a Khan writhing in pain still can't do jack shit but die slowly, right?

Just dismissing arguments with hackneyed catchphrases like "abc logic" doesn't fly. If Vader were orders of magnitude stronger than Palpatine in telekinesis, he would've just crushed his master with a gesture. He evidently cannot do that.

Not that this matters anyway; Sheev is clearly more than capable of using the Force to kill or ragdoll, given that he can fling senate pods.

Who cares even if this were true? Just blast his blasts or take his gun away.

No, it isn't. Trust me, these kinds of sci-fi debates are my specialty; if you can show me phaser blasts that match this:

Or this:

Or anything here:

YouTube video

let me know.

So being able to fool the entire Galactic Republic, along with the most powerful Jedi Order in the mythos, should be counted against him?

Who cares? He lost. [/B]

You need proof as to why Sidious can casually deflect the firepower and dual guns Khan wields in this instance. You just scripted what you want to happen not what is likely to occur. Khan hits him he dies. Sidious has not shown the ability to casually deflect something this wide and powerful as the phase cannon/Boolean gun that Khan uses.

There's a reason if you can keep the offensive and someone on the defensive they can't just casually stand there and do what needs to be done without dying. Timing is everything in these fights. Take for instance Kenobi when he tried using his force powers to reacquire his Lightsaber. Jango kept him off balance and pressed the attack so he didn't have the opportunity. This is how fighting has always worked. Take a look at the Maul/Vizsla fight. He didn't casually stomp him but when the openings were there and after he was worn down did Maul win.

Yoda had over thirty seconds to recover. Palpatine knew what threat Ypda represented and still gave him all that time while he cackled. That's how stupid and arrogant the Sith Lord is. If you want to count the time it took Yoda to regain his balance and force push its like zombie level slow.

You are making up gun destroying tk feats. You can't apply the powers however you want in a timeframe you just dream up. You need evidence to assert your claims.

False. You're arguing based off the generic pro Star Wars cookie cutter argument that said fighter uses said powers in said way in said time. That isn't how it works. We go based off the evidence not our imagination spinning the application of said powers in an advantageous manner.

Why can't Khan shoot from his shoulder cannon that's strapped around his shoulder ? He has superhuman cellular regeneration so do not compare his cells to those scrubs from the Star Wars universe. He's better.

False reasoning. I'll expose it. In the clone wars we see Ventress successfully force choke both Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. The ship was jolted and this broke her concentration. Despite the fact two Jedi were superior to her Ventress' powers worked the same against anyone with a windpipe. if Palpatine gets struck with a Lightsaber it hurts him. His power doesn't make him invulnerable. If he gets shot with a blaster and it hits him it kills or seriously injures depending on the injury. Their skills are what matter and the application of their powers at crucial moments in combat.

Khan is someone with cellular superhuman regeneration whereas Sheev is some old geriatric with power in the force. That power didn't save his face from the facial scarring as a result of the fl. Luke walked away without a single scar. Palpatine isn't very durable at all. Khan makes Palpatine look like someone who should be in a nursing home. His posture is atrocious and his gait is even pathetic.

Maul doesn't recover quickly. That's the point. Sure he survived something unbelievable but it didn't get him back into the fight. He doesn't bounce back like Khan does. That was a key plot point to his abilities how quickly his cells regenerated. His blood saved terminal cases and in the proper setting resurrected the dead.

Sidious also toyed with Opress, Luke, and Yoda. That's too many examples to ignore. Yoda is the biggest glare on that list because he was aware of his station and power as a Jedi. Khan guns him down first. In that scenario he didn't even have his saber drawn. Evidence supports Khan. Palpatine is sloppy and stupid.

Palpatine used a gesture to attack Yoda. Yoda used a gesture to attack Sheev. Sheev used gestures to hurl pods. It doesn't act instantly it has to be concentrated on and then it works. It's like pressing a button. Once you concentrate it works just like once you hit the button the blast comes.

I've given numerous examples of him not seeing things coming. You don't get to ignore him not seeing 1. Vader turn
2. Not seeing Yoda come to and get back into the fight over thirty second later
3. Not see Windu's kick disarm him.

Palpatine had Yoda at his mercy for over a half a minute and despite common sense screaming for him to press his advantage he let him get to his feet and counter attack. Where the **** was his common sense let alone his precog ?

I cite evidence not vague terms while under direct evidence wilt like a flower out of bloom.

I didn't mean to imply he meant you will die right now but he was not holding back his fl. Prior to he was torturing but he made his intentions clear. Why didn't precog warn him about Vader turning ? So you ignore the evidence and the fact his fl has not killed anyone directly by saying Dooku did. When ?

So what ? Shoot him with a blaster and he bleeds. It doesn't alter his durability.

He can shoot while he's choking.

I never said he was a lot more powerful than Sheev. I said this feat in no way translates into a feat for Palpatine. Vader hasn't ever used the force in that manner either.

Sheev has ragdolled before but who did he kill ? I'll need examples not coulda, wouldas, shouldas.

So who fires and attacks first doesn't matter to you. Ok.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. Sheev faced less opposition. In fact his enemies gave him info all the time. He had a luxury most baddies don't by directly speaking to the opposition without their knowledge.

Sheev also lost to Windu. Sheev also got killed by Vader. He's dead. Khan isn't.

With regards to the phaser cannon read this post.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mTJS0L_Hs

4.) Khan takes on Klingons and subjugates Spock, Uhura, and Kirk.

55 seconds: Khan begins his assault on the Klingons.

1:17: Khan's phaser cannon shows its impressive firepower capable of taking out the Klingon ship with one blast.

1:26--1:37: Kirk takes on a Klingon in hand to hand combat while we see Spock taking one out with an accurate blast from his phaser weapon.

1:39--1:41: Khan use the phaser cannon to physically take out an incoming threat and having the superhuman awareness to then switch to long ranged threats with his other weapon.

1:47--1:48: We see Khan taking two Klingons out simultaneously.

1:51: Here we see Kirk shoot down a Klingon.

2:02--2:06: The Klingon reinforcements arrive onto the scene.

2:12--2:15: Kirk's strength give him the breakaway he needs to take out the Klingon before being overwhelmed by the next two.

2:18--2:21: The damage the Boolean gun does to a humanoid body with body armor.

2:25--2:27: Spock, Uhura, and Kirk regroup after Khan destroys the Klingons seek refuge. They are in awe of Khan's fighting skill and abilities.

Do not compare the shitty weapons these idiots use to Khan's phaser cannon. Hell, even in the force awakens multiple gunshots failed to even significantly damage the Millenium Falcon.

"Crawling to the first egress--as distance of scarcely ten meters--he lowered himself ino a murky storage room and once more called upon the weapon's [lightsaber's] crimson blade from the hilt. Constructed to fit the Muun's [Darth Plagueis] large hand, the lightsaber felt unwieldy in Sidious's, so he switched to a two-handed grip. Moving with a caution that belied his murderous intent, and on the alert for cams or other security devices, he eased out of the room into a tight corridor and followed it toward the front of the building. There, in a formal entryway, two Dugs [for those who don't know what a Dug is, it is the species that Sebulba is a member of] were standing guard in a desultory way. Moving quickly, a blur to human senses, he caught them by surprise, splitting open the chest and abdomen and beheading the other while the first was attempting to prevent entrails from spilling onto the glossy mosaic floor. A brief scan of the foyer revealed the presence of cams installed in the walls and high ceiling. He wondered how the killings appeared to anyone monitoring a display screen. It must have seemed as if the two Dugs had been butchered by a phantom."

-Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis (paperback pages 300-301)

This is more than substantial evidence that he can move fast enough to close the distance before Khan can even lift an eyebrow in surprise. Note: this is LOOOOOOOOOOONG before his prime, roughly twenty years before The Phantom Menace, which itself is 13 years before Revenge of the Sith, which is 23 years before Return of the Jedi. If this doesn't convince you, then clearly you're just braindead.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
"Crawling to the first egress--as distance of scarcely ten meters--he lowered himself ino a murky storage room and once more called upon the weapon's [lightsaber's] crimson blade from the hilt. Constructed to fit the Muun's [Darth Plagueis] large hand, the lightsaber felt unwieldy in Sidious's, so he switched to a two-handed grip. Moving with a caution that belied his murderous intent, and on the alert for cams or other security devices, he eased out of the room into a tight corridor and followed it toward the front of the building. There, in a formal entryway, two Dugs [for those who don't know what a Dug is, it is the species that Sebulba is a member of] were standing guard in a desultory way. Moving quickly, a blur to human senses, he caught them by surprise, splitting open the chest and abdomen and beheading the other while the first was attempting to prevent entrails from spilling onto the glossy mosaic floor. A brief scan of the foyer revealed the presence of cams installed in the walls and high ceiling. He wondered how the killings appeared to anyone monitoring a display screen. It must have seemed as if the two Dugs had been butchered by a phantom."

-Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis (paperback pages 300-301)

This is more than substantial evidence that he can move fast enough to close the distance before Khan can even lift an eyebrow in surprise. Note: this is LOOOOOOOOOOONG before his prime, roughly twenty years before The Phantom Menace, which itself is 13 years before Revenge of the Sith, which is 23 years before Return of the Jedi. If this doesn't convince you, then clearly you're just braindead.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Films only. ----------
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which of these adversaries alone brings more to the table in terms of a menacing villain. Feel free to include tech, intelligence, ruthlessness, cunning, etc. to argue for who you feel is a better enemy.

Sheev Palpatine (Darth Sidious)

Vs.

Khan Noonien Singh (Into Darkness version)

Well ??

🙂

🙂

It seems like we've a few points to disagree over.

1. Will Sheev choke him?

The question of whether he can isn't even worth discussing - now you're just claiming that he won't out of some sort of arrogance. You've consistently ignored my observation that while he can display a desire to duel against Maul or Yoda, when he faces two random guards, he just chokes them. Khan is not Force-sensitive; to Palpatine, he's nothing.

Your response is that he still waits for them to say "stop" before he chokes them, and they could've shot him in the meantime. Well, no, because if they had thought of pulling the trigger, Sidious's precog would've kicked in and he'd have choked them first/earlier.

Ultimately when we're having these kinds of debates, unless if you have sufficient data points to suggest otherwise - and pointing to him dueling the likes of Yoda and Maul hardly compares to him dealing with some random dude with a gun - we need to use some basic reasoning here to fill in the blanks. Choking someone is easy, it's not beyond Sidious's ability to figure to do, and it's something he's done before. Suggesting that he wouldn't kill Khan in an efficient manner is a pretty desperate move on your part.

BTW, you bring up the fact that he tries to run from Yoda - right, whenever he thinks he's in danger, he doesn't hesitate to make the tactical and strategic decision. If you actually think Khan poses a serious threat to Sheev, he can just snap his neck with a gesture.

And what about lightning? Sidious opens his fight against Yoda with it; why won't he do that here? You try to quibble over whether it's fatal (even though it can launch Windu hundreds of feet), which is irrelevant; the point is that it can incapacitate Khan, at which point he's clearly at Sidious's mercy.

2. Can Khan do anything to him?

But let's assume that Sheev decides to act like an idiot and let Khan attack. What can he do, exactly? You say that his phasers are too powerful for Sheev to handle, but seem to have posted the wrong video - that's of a copter-mounted chaingun. Interestingly enough, none of those shots actually compare with the firepower of, say, clone troopers' blaster rifles, which can blow apart droidekas with single shots. But even if they did, what would that demonstrate? It's obviously not going to penetrate his lightsaber - so do you think it'll knock it out of his hands? Unlikely, given Jedi durability and strength feats elaborated on below, but if that happens, wouldn't Sheev have every incentive to take the gloves off and just break his neck?

Jedi clearly have superhuman physical abilities, given Anakin's ability to casually hit a moving metal airspeeder at terminal velocity, Obi Wan and Qui Gon jumping dozens of meters into the air, etc. They're also incredibly durable, seeing the number of shots it takes to kill Jedi in Order 66.

There are so many other ways Sheev can neutralize Khan. He can crush his phaser before he moves, or he can just use the Force to pull Khan towards him and then impale him on his lightsaber.

----

The only way Khan can win this is if:
[LIST]
[*]Sheev is a complete moron and just lets Khan fire at him.
[*]Sheev apparently can't hold onto his lightsaber or employ any of the precognition he has developed.
[*]Sheev makes no attempt to crush his phaser, pull him to his lightsaber, knock his gun away, trip him, or do anything that comes off as incredibly obvious employments of his abilities.
[*]Despite the lack of precedent for Sidious facing non-Force sensitives (except for the one you don't want to use because he kills them from the get-go), rather than making intelligent guesses about how these characters act, we should just assume that they'll act in the dumbest way possible because it'll help your side win.
[/LIST]

This is possible, I guess, in the same way many things are, but is it the most likely outcome? Hell no.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q

2:42

Explain to me how Khan survives an onslaught like this, or even his FL. it's completely insensible to even consider the possibility of surviving Sheev's FL when Khan is a. not a Forceful being and can't defend against an attack like this, let alone survive a direct hit, and b. in the extremely unlikely event that he does survive, do you really expect him to have the stamina or even consciousness to stand up, let alone fight? It's pure comedy gold to consider that you truly believe this shit. Go back to where you belong, which is anywhere but on the Star Wars Versus Forums.

Khan failed to kill Spock in a lengthy confrontation:

YouTube video

How is he going to contend with Palpatine?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It seems like we've a few points to disagree over.

1. [b]Will Sheev choke him?

The question of whether he can isn't even worth discussing - now you're just claiming that he won't out of some sort of arrogance. You've consistently ignored my observation that while he can display a desire to duel against Maul or Yoda, when he faces two random guards, he just chokes them. Khan is not Force-sensitive; to Palpatine, he's nothing.

Your response is that he still waits for them to say "stop" before he chokes them, and they could've shot him in the meantime. Well, no, because if they had thought of pulling the trigger, Sidious's precog would've kicked in and he'd have choked them first/earlier.

Ultimately when we're having these kinds of debates, unless if you have sufficient data points to suggest otherwise - and pointing to him dueling the likes of Yoda and Maul hardly compares to him dealing with some random dude with a gun - we need to use some basic reasoning here to fill in the blanks. Choking someone is easy, it's not beyond Sidious's ability to figure to do, and it's something he's done before. Suggesting that he wouldn't kill Khan in an efficient manner is a pretty desperate move on your part.

BTW, you bring up the fact that he tries to run from Yoda - right, whenever he thinks he's in danger, he doesn't hesitate to make the tactical and strategic decision. If you actually think Khan poses a serious threat to Sheev, he can just snap his neck with a gesture.

And what about lightning? Sidious opens his fight against Yoda with it; why won't he do that here? You try to quibble over whether it's fatal (even though it can launch Windu hundreds of feet), which is irrelevant; the point is that it can incapacitate Khan, at which point he's clearly at Sidious's mercy.

2. Can Khan do anything to him?

But let's assume that Sheev decides to act like an idiot and let Khan attack. What can he do, exactly? You say that his phasers are too powerful for Sheev to handle, but seem to have posted the wrong video - that's of a copter-mounted chaingun. Interestingly enough, none of those shots actually compare with the firepower of, say, clone troopers' blaster rifles, which can blow apart droidekas with single shots. But even if they did, what would that demonstrate? It's obviously not going to penetrate his lightsaber - so do you think it'll knock it out of his hands? Unlikely, given Jedi durability and strength feats elaborated on below, but if that happens, wouldn't Sheev have every incentive to take the gloves off and just break his neck?

Jedi clearly have superhuman physical abilities, given Anakin's ability to casually hit a moving metal airspeeder at terminal velocity, Obi Wan and Qui Gon jumping dozens of meters into the air, etc. They're also incredibly durable, seeing the number of shots it takes to kill Jedi in Order 66.

There are so many other ways Sheev can neutralize Khan. He can crush his phaser before he moves, or he can just use the Force to pull Khan towards him and then impale him on his lightsaber.

----

The only way Khan can win this is if:
[LIST]
[*]Sheev is a complete moron and just lets Khan fire at him.
[*]Sheev apparently can't hold onto his lightsaber or employ any of the precognition he has developed.
[*]Sheev makes no attempt to crush his phaser, pull him to his lightsaber, knock his gun away, trip him, or do anything that comes off as incredibly obvious employments of his abilities.
[*]Despite the lack of precedent for Sidious facing non-Force sensitives (except for the one you don't want to use because he kills them from the get-go), rather than making intelligent guesses about how these characters act, we should just assume that they'll act in the dumbest way possible because it'll help your side win.
[/LIST]

This is possible, I guess, in the same way many things are, but is it the most likely outcome? Hell no. [/B]

1. Let's go down that road. Choking link and cellular regeneration links

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/choking/article_em.htm

Breathing is an essential part of life. When we inhale, we breathe in a mix of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other gases.

In the lungs, oxygen enters the bloodstream to travel to the rest of the body. Our bodies use oxygen as a fuel source to make energy from the food we eat. Carbon dioxide, a waste product, enters the bloodstream and travels back to the lungs.
When we exhale, we breathe out carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and oxygen.
When someone is choking with a completely blocked airway, no oxygen can enter the lungs. The brain is extremely sensitive to this lack of oxygen and begins to die within four to six minutes. It is during this time that first aid must take place. Irreversible brain death occurs in as little as 10 minutes.

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/newsroom/news-releases/year-2013/nov/cell-release.html

Cell regeneration link 1^^

Link 2

Rapid Cellular Regeneration (Tissue Regeneration, Epithial Cell Regeneration, or Healing Factor) is the ability to regenerate at a superhumanly quick rate. One with this ability regenerates as an automatic response to injury, and the body usually repairs itself within less than a minute (though a little over a minute is not uncommon) depending on the severity of the damage done.

http://advancing-evolution.wikia.com/wiki/Rapid_Cellular_Regeneration

What is the quickest amount of time Palpatine choked out someone without superhuman cellular regeneration ?

So you're saying he's nothing but then acting like Palpatine tries to finish him off as quickly as possible when he doesn't even deem him a threat. It seems you agree with me. Quit ignoring the real time that takes place when he chokes the guards who had enough time to aim and say the word, halt. Darth Maul has force choked mandalorians before but he didn't casually defeat Vizsla because he was that damn good. It took a lengthy battle for Maul to end up victorious despite the lack of force sensitivity.

How did order 66 pan out against those force sensitives ? Were they caught off guard and systematically destroyed save a small number. SIDS precog didn't kick in when he allowed Yoda over thirty seconds to regain his balance and force push him. Common sense screams what the **** are you doing Sidious you complete idiot why would you let your opponent regain composure and not press your advantage of the most powerful Jedi ? Stupid, stupid. Your theories fall apart with direct evidence. Why didn't precog warn him about Windu's foot or Vader's betrayal ? This wasn't happening at the speed of light either. Vader was slow as **** and he only had one hand.

How is it desperate when you are ignoring his superhuman resiliency and skill with his weaponry. Why can't he fire them if Sidious attacked first ?

There you go again making a baseless claim. You have to deal with facts not what ifs. Whose neck does he just casually snap with his force powers. Basically if I take this seriously their feats don't matter and let's just make up attacks based off the application of their powers and weapons.

2. Khan blows his body into pieces. Khab doesn't give speeches he shoots to kill while Sheev cackles like an idiot or he will give a long winded speech about the threat of the dark side. This gun blew bodies to bits and took down Klingon ships with single shots. I have seen the clones shoot unamped Jedi and their bodies weren't even torn into. Hell, we see blasters fire into bodies throughout the films and they never do the kind of damage the shoulder cannon from Khan did in that scene.

What blast did Palpatine or anyone for that matter deflect as wide and as powerful ?

When does he just start snapping necks ?

Khan also has superhuman physical abilities and he doesn't need to link up with the force to do so either. They were just shooting them to kill them. We see Jango didn't need that many shots to kill a Jedi before in attack of the clones.
Jedi weren't steamrolling past shots at all. They were dropping like flies. The blasts were so weak multiple shots weren't even ripping their bodies apart.

*Sheev is a moron in combat.
* I didn't say he can't I said prove he can since he's never done so to my knowledge in the films or even in the series against this kind of firepower. His precognition has been worse than common sense. His reaction time is worse than a human beings at times, Yoda, Vader, etc.

* How often does he do so ? I am not saying it's an impossibility I'm saying it's unlikely. You need examples. He didn't easily disarm Yoda. He never disarmed Windu. It took him time to disarm Maul. So why all of a sudden is he breaking necks and disarming foes in a millisecond. Your perception isn't reality you need facts to back your claims otherwise our imaginations can run wild.

Khan will fire off multiple rounds and he has dual guns. What do you think Sheev will do since he isn't likely to just attack first. If Khan hits Palpatine he does not the same if he hits Khan with fl or even the Lightsaber.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q

2:42

Explain to me how Khan survives an onslaught like this, or even his FL. it's completely insensible to even consider the possibility of surviving Sheev's FL when Khan is a. not a Forceful being and can't defend against an attack like this, let alone survive a direct hit, and b. in the extremely unlikely event that he does survive, do you really expect him to have the stamina or even consciousness to stand up, let alone fight? It's pure comedy gold to consider that you truly believe this shit. Go back to where you belong, which is anywhere but on the Star Wars Versus Forums.

Dear lord, this is kind of bad. Yoda a guy who can't even walk properly who has bad posture and needs a cane without the force to walk down a hallway. Yoda's body is shit. Khan's blood cures AIDS. Khan can resist 8 stun blasts after he crash lands, jumps 98 feet, and has a drawn out fight with Spock. And you give me this shit. Luke walks away from this guys force lightning like a boss. It's like a really bad headache that just suddenly does away.

Khan has superhuman resiliency aka superhuman cellular regeneration and you have the unmitigated gall to post an attack a 800 year old geriatric surviving this attack. The guy can't even walk in a straight line on his own.

😂

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Khan failed to kill Spock in a lengthy confrontation:

YouTube video

How is he going to contend with Palpatine?

I might as well reference Sidious being killed by a one handed Vader.

Khan was afraid of Spock.

Sheev's cackle has him fleeing as usual.

Originally posted by Trocity
Khan was afraid of Spock.

Sheev's cackle has him fleeing as usual.

Khan disarmed him and was about to crush his skull. Sheev's posture wouldn't be able to handle Khan. Both he and Yoda I mean stand the **** straight up. Quit leaning you weaklings.

Khan's punches are slow but his legs are fast, good for running away from Spock ( and Palpatine ).

Palpatine could destroy all of space. Therefore, he is multiversal because it doesn't specify if its the space of all universes or just his.

At this point I'm tempted to refer you to a mental stabilization hospital. I sincerely hope that you don't really believe this, do you realize that the only reason Yoda survived any of these attacks is because he is a very powerful Force user that use the Force to protect and sustainable I himself. Explain to me, sir, how in the hell Khan survives his lightning or a massive pillar hurled directly into him at several kilometers an hour, let alone dozens?