The most dangerous adversaries pitted against each other

Originally posted by Tondemonai
At this point I'm tempted to refer you to a mental stabilization hospital. I sincerely hope that you don't really believe this, do you realize that the only reason Yoda survived any of these attacks is because he is a very powerful Force user that use the Force to protect and sustainable I himself. Explain to me, sir, how in the hell Khan survives his lightning or a massive pillar hurled directly into him at several kilometers an hour, let alone dozens?

😂

Originally posted by Trocity
Khan's punches are slow but his legs are fast, good for running away from Spock ( and Palpatine ).

Alright, done with humoring you. You want these rules, go to the Movie Versus Forum. Here, fights include all feats stated by the OP to be included (i.e. Palpatine as of RotJ has all his cannon feats up to that point, or legends RotS Anakin), not "movie feats only," that's for the MVF. Khan shouldn't even be mentioned on this forum, let alone used in a thread. My points still stand, Khan doesn't have the Force, nor the speed, to keep him alive in this confrontation. If you have a fetish for public humiliation, or just in general making yourself look like an idiot, you've more than succeeded, you've just fulfilled that enough to last a lifetime. Now please, go get yourself off on some other forum, or just do what Donald Drumpf does and make yourself look like an idiot and preach Nazi beliefs publicly.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Alright, done with humoring you. You want these rules, go to the Movie Versus Forum. Here, fights include all feats stated by the OP to be included (i.e. Palpatine as of RotJ has all his cannon feats up to that point, or legends RotS Anakin), not "movie feats only," that's for the MVF. Khan shouldn't even be mentioned on this forum, let alone used in a thread. My points still stand, Khan doesn't have the Force, nor the speed, to keep him alive in this confrontation. If you have a fetish for public humiliation, or just in general making yourself look like an idiot, you've more than succeeded, you've just fulfilled that enough to last a lifetime. Now please, go get yourself off on some other forum, or just do what Donald Drumpf does and make yourself look like an idiot and preach Nazi beliefs publicly.

I apologize for my emotionally driven comments of spite, however, I don't feel that you have put forth any evidence that shows anything that shows Khan surviving, let alone winning, a fight with Sidious

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I apologize for my emotionally driven comments of spite, however, I don't feel that you have put forth any evidence that shows anything that shows Khan surviving, let alone winning, a fight with Sidious

I will show evidence of specific instances of the Emperor of both the galactic empire and the Sith showing extreme cowardice in the midst of battle. This raises a valid question since these guys are both fighting in character. At what point would Palpatine try to cut his losses and avoid any further conflict with Khan Noonien Singh.
Just to note he isn't running from unfair or unarmed combat but whenever the opportunity arises where he might lose and/or die.

1. 2:41-2:43 Palpatine states, "Don't let him kill me." This shows he will beg and plead for someone else to help him escape his current situation if it's dire enough. He didn't have the determination to keep pressing him and acknowledged his vulnerability in this situation. He continues to beg before Anakin ultimately decides to intervene but the point is clearly made.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z98llqq5LYU

2. 1:32-1:37 Yoda states, "If so powerful you are then why leave." This shows the moment Yoda regains his composure and that there is going to be a fair fight Palpatine wants no part of it and tries to exit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q

The conclusion one can come to when analyzing these two pieces of evidence is Palpatine will probably be wary of a fight if he can sense the power behind Khan's phaser cannon or sees it in action. Palpatine isn't used to settling things for himself and usually has his apprentice or his men see combat through unless there's no other way out of it. Khan on the other hand is a ruthless combatant who calmly and skillfully tears through his foes with tactical efficiency. Khan doesn't waste time playing with his food. He swallows it whole.

Palpatine's combat buffoonery

Take a look at some of the asinine actions this ruthless dictator exhibits while under the heat of battle. Palpatine doesn't press the advantage when he has it and tends to play with his opponents which is ill advised and has ended up costing him dearly.

1. 2:17-2:57 in this clip we see him shoot force lightning for around forty seconds despite it being deflected back onto him. Why would he wait that long and inflict that much damage into himself before stopping this horribly ineffective attack. This is a very poor decision made under the duress of battle.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z98llqq5LYU

2. 44-1:19 seconds we see Yoda is unable to defend himself while Palpatine slowly walks without attacking or pressing his advantage. Yoda then after around 35 seconds later has the strength to recover and he force pushes a completely defenseless Palpatine. What's even more hysterical is this is the buffoon who outwitted the Jedi order. He stands around cackling and allows Yoda over a half a minute to recover and attack him.

3. 1:03 we see Palpatine doesn't press the advantage of having both of his opponents pressed up against the wall and laughs about like a madman. Once again this is another example of him not going for the immediate kill. 1:30 Palpatine is caught off guard and kicked backward before he uses his powers again to gain the advantage. 2:27-3:07 Palpatine gives Maul time to say goodbye to his brother and let the rage build up which isn't wise. He should have pressed his advantage but we see this isn't how Palpatine likes to engage his opponents with a ruthless kill but more or less torture them along the way.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uXBdCIsrU

4. Now we have the most offensive and moronic decision of all. This is where the emperor tortures his apprentice's son right in front of him for around 0-42 seconds before he even intends on killing him. Close to a minute later he doesn't see a problem with this long drawn out torture of a man's son right in front of him as biting him in the ass.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-dmOrS4Bf2SruLQUC1LmHuZOqTFJDAtA&v=4BOQI-LAEzM

5. At 52 seconds in Palpatine releases Luke from his bonds. At 58 seconds he dismisses the guards. Palpatine willingly dismisses every advantage he had over Luke in an effort to convert one Jedi when he already held the galaxy under his authority.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuPe-ly0BHM

6. 1:25 Palpatine admits Luke could destroy us and yet he still dismissed the guards and tortured him over a minute with his father present. Are you kidding me ? This is despicable and offensive to anyone with a rational brain. This can't be explained away. The moment he failed to turn he should have destroyed him quickly. Luke was without a weapon and instead Palpatine gave a speech hissing and snarling at him. Khan isn't the type of guy who gives speeches while combat. That's a huge advantage for Khan.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBlw1gNWdg

I don't get it...is Palpatine a coward who will resort to ending the fight as quickly as possible (.ie, snapping his neck), or is he a maniac who loves to draw fights out?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't get it...is Palpatine a coward who will resort to ending the fight as quickly as possible (.ie, snapping his neck), or is he a maniac who loves to draw fights out?

OK Quanchi,

Mulling over Palpatine's tactical mistakes doesn't really matter much if you can't explain how Khan is actually going to take advantage of them. There's no Darth Vader standing next to Sidious to toss him down a shaft, nor can Khan get back up from force lightning and telekinetically shove him over a chair. The fight will be over in seconds, and your talking about drawn out tactical implications is therefore irrelevant.

Why is Sidious likely to just kill Khan right away? Well, if we accept TCW episodes, this isn't even much of a question - he clearly chokes those two guards pretty unceremoniously. You claim that he waits too long to do this because they could've shot him in the time they took to ask his identity, but this is where precognition comes into play - had their minds shifted to wanting to shoot him, he could've just choked them a few seconds earlier. It's not like that would lie beyond Palpatine's means or motive. This example gives us a better picture of how he would handle Khan than does his fight against Maul/Savage and Yoda, because in both of those instances he has personal reasons to care more about taunting his adversaries. Here, he's facing someone he'll take no more seriously than those two guards. Mind you, whether he snaps their necks or chokes them is irrelevant - either would kill Khan.

If we're just using the films, we only have two combat scenes with Palpatine; he clearly wastes no time against Windu and company, but he does gloat and crackle against Yoda. Of course, from what he's actually gloating about, it's obvious that his behavior stems largely from the context of the encounter, .ie, facing the grandmaster of his hated enemy right after having pretty much taken over the galaxy. When his future was much more uncertain, like against Windu, he doesn't waste any time. Neither incident is a very good analogy to his fight with Khan, which contains none of the relevant backdrop. In the absence of a clear precedent, then, we need to look to the most reasonable and believable prediction of what Sidous's behavior will be. Just killing Khan outright is the most logical option, fits best with Sidious's goal (to kill Khan), and lies well within both his abilities and intellectual reach. It's therefore more logical to say that he'll leverage his telekinetic abilities, rather than bizarrely stating that he'll forgo doing that to fulfill some sort of desire to duel with a non-Force sensitive. He might enjoy gloating at the grandmaster of the Jedi Order; he doesn't give a f*ck about Khan.

Sidious's ability to insta-kill him from a distance renders this conversation moot. But what if for some inexplicable reason, he decides not to? It's still clearly his fight to lose. Khan can try to shoot him, but Palpatine can:
[LIST]
[*]Rip his gun out of his hand.
[*]Stop his bolts midair, if we don't assume that Kylo Ren is more powerful than Darth Sidious.
[*]Reflect his shots back at him, given your failure to demonstrate how they're more difficult to block than blaster bolts.
[*]Hit him with Force lightning, which can clearly be made fatal given its ability to fling Windu hundreds of feet, but even if it weren't, would still effectively incapacitate him.
[*]Use Force speed Qui Gon/Obi Wan style to close the distance.
[*]Toss his saber at him.
[/LIST]

You're basically hoping that a guy who tools people who regularly deal with entire squads of soldiers with semi-automatic weapons would get killed by a single guy with a handheld gun. Even if he does every stupid thing you want him to do, he still wins. Being able to see things before they happen and move things with your mind does that for you.

I can't believe the whole instance with the Force Lighting thing against Mace was brought up as a legit argument...HELLO, Palpatine wanted Anakin to see that Mace was the enemy and that he was just a helpless old man, hence why he was all "Oh..please...please help me....I don't have the strength..."

Then literally seconds later.

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!" As he blasts Mace out the window.

He was trying to get Anakin over to his side, which worked, that was hardly because Palpatine was weak or anything. Heck even GL(ya know the director/writer so his word here is perfectly viable) even notes that Palps was feigning weakness.

EVEN if you take that absurd argument, he's not gonna be in that position anyway.

You dare attack Khan while I'm offline. You will pay for your insolence.

Bringing your shenanigans into the SWVF? What happened to the All-Media Versus Forum, btw? mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bringing your shenanigans into the SWVF? What happened to the All-Media Versus Forum, btw? mmm

Originally posted by quanchi112
The Sheev wank alerted me. I brought Khan to put it down once and for all.

For Sheev's a jolly good fellow, which nobody can deny.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
OK Quanchi,

Mulling over Palpatine's tactical mistakes doesn't really matter much if you can't explain how Khan is actually going to take advantage of them. There's no Darth Vader standing next to Sidious to toss him down a shaft, nor can Khan get back up from force lightning and telekinetically shove him over a chair. The fight will be over in seconds, and your talking about drawn out tactical implications is therefore irrelevant.

Why is Sidious likely to just kill Khan right away? Well, if we accept TCW episodes, this isn't even much of a question - he clearly chokes those two guards pretty unceremoniously. You claim that he waits too long to do this because they could've shot him in the time they took to ask his identity, but this is where precognition comes into play - had their minds shifted to wanting to shoot him, he could've just choked them a few seconds earlier. It's not like that would lie beyond Palpatine's means or motive. This example gives us a better picture of how he would handle Khan than does his fight against Maul/Savage and Yoda, because in both of those instances he has personal reasons to care more about taunting his adversaries. Here, he's facing someone he'll take no more seriously than those two guards. Mind you, whether he snaps their necks or chokes them is irrelevant - either would kill Khan.

If we're just using the films, we only have two combat scenes with Palpatine; he clearly wastes no time against Windu and company, but he does gloat and crackle against Yoda. Of course, from what he's actually gloating about, it's obvious that his behavior stems largely from the context of the encounter, .ie, facing the grandmaster of his hated enemy right after having pretty much taken over the galaxy. When his future was much more uncertain, like against Windu, he doesn't waste any time. Neither incident is a very good analogy to his fight with Khan, which contains none of the relevant backdrop. In the absence of a clear precedent, then, we need to look to the most reasonable and believable prediction of what Sidous's behavior will be. Just killing Khan outright is the most logical option, fits best with Sidious's goal (to kill Khan), and lies well within both his abilities and intellectual reach. It's therefore more logical to say that he'll leverage his telekinetic abilities, rather than bizarrely stating that he'll forgo doing that to fulfill some sort of desire to duel with a non-Force sensitive. He might enjoy gloating at the grandmaster of the Jedi Order; he doesn't give a f*ck about Khan.

Sidious's ability to insta-kill him from a distance renders this conversation moot. But what if for some inexplicable reason, he decides not to? It's still clearly his fight to lose. Khan can try to shoot him, but Palpatine can:
[LIST]
[*]Rip his gun out of his hand.
[*]Stop his bolts midair, if we don't assume that Kylo Ren is more powerful than Darth Sidious.
[*]Reflect his shots back at him, given your failure to demonstrate how they're more difficult to block than blaster bolts.
[*]Hit him with Force lightning, which can clearly be made fatal given its ability to fling Windu hundreds of feet, but even if it weren't, would still effectively incapacitate him.
[*]Use Force speed Qui Gon/Obi Wan style to close the distance.
[*]Toss his saber at him.
[/LIST]

You're basically hoping that a guy who tools people who regularly deal with entire squads of soldiers with semi-automatic weapons would get killed by a single guy with a handheld gun. Even if he does every stupid thing you want him to do, he still wins. Being able to see things before they happen and move things with your mind does that for you.

Now claiming he would use precog and be one step ahead isn't something you can prove. You can claim it but I believe all of this comes down to reflexes and skills. I've already listed the examples precog failed him. A phaser blast from his gun travels much faster than a Windu kick or a Vader snatch and he wasn't aware of either slower attack before hand.

You also don't have any examples of him snapping necks.

Sheev did know based off their numbers he had to get right down to brass tax. He decimated the weaker Jedi until the two peers remained. I have no problem in seeing Sheev trying to close down the distance between himself and Khan. I feel that's completely in character. Based off the evidence Khan is firing before Sheev attempts force lightning or to use his force powers.

Logically though wouldn't it make more sense to gloat over an enemy you have no fear of rather than someone he deemed a clear threat. In any event Khan is going to start firing ASAP but in no care does Palpatine strike faster than Khan does in any of his action sequences. Undeniable.

**Khan has two guns. One is around his shoulder and one is in his other hand. We also don't have any examples of him at the start of battle ripping anyone's weapons out of their hands.

**Sidious has never done so and this occurred after the other Star Wars films. We can't go back and retroactively apply feats since Kylo did something in the newest film. Food for thought he only stopped one bolt we don't know if these guys have the concentration to maintain multiple bolts frozen in mid air.

**Onus is on you since the bolts do greater damage to armored bodies as well as down Klingon ships in one blast.

**It didn't incapacitate Luke or Windu. Only Yoda briefly but he's a geriatric fraggle with clear gait issues so no surprise there. Khan has superhuman cellular regeneration and took eight stun blasts consecutively after an extended fight and was still on his feet.

**That wasn't combat speed that was sprinting speed to ironically avoid a fight not run towards it.

**Khan can shoot it out of the air. Khan had the battle awareness to take out 20 plus Klingons all converging as well as multiple ships with relative ease. Sheev is one target.

The evidence clearly shows Khan with his dual weapons would have Palpatine basically running for his life. One senate pod thrown at him at a much slower rate than the rapid fire Khan can unleash sent him jumping over to another pod with no awareness of Yoda. He looked all over the place and lost his sense of battle awareness after that one pod was launched at him. There's nowhere to hide from Khan. He can put multiple holes in him in less than a second.

🙂

Has Ellimist truly given up? 🙂

I imagine quanchi gave him cancer, and he had to go to the hospital. 🙂

Quanchi cancer is good, though. 🙂

Khan reigns supreme.