Darth Caedus and Darth Vader vs. novel Vitiate and Arcann

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool, still not as knowledgeable as he'd become though. And every source on that encounter makes explicit that because Revan (and Malak) were at the precipice of the dark side, it was made easy for Vitiate to corrupt and dominate them. With individuals like Anakin and Luke setting a precedent for being mentally pliable when in that nebulous state. Hence the reason they succumbed.

Anakin Skywalker was slowly lured to the Dark Side, the process lasted several years.

Luke Skywalker willingly embraced the Dark Side during the events of DE and Palpatine knew that the former would betray him at some point. Palpatine had to defeat Luke in single combat in order to break him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You are and it is. If we accept your assertions the only way to prove anyone has a counter to this technique is through personal experience of it, and discovery of this unnamed "technique", against anyone who lacks that it can be limitlessly asserted nothing suggests they know it and therefore they're ****ed.

So I guess Sidious, UnuThul, Luke and the Son would be fodderised as well.

I am fully aware of telepathic powers of UnuThul and Lord Nyax and I find Vitiate's telepathic abilities more intense in comparison. Even The Son doesn't seems to have edge over Vitiate in this area. This is not just based on number of individuals successfully possessed but some "inner details" as well.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If he can TP Luke Skywalker at full power does it really matter? Not when Vitiate can't even overpower the Outlander I wouldn't think. 😉

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You make it sound like as if breaking Revan and Malak was an easy task and any accomplished telepath could pull it off against them. This is a logical fallacy in itself. Being closer to the Dark Side doesn't makes you weak-willed.

Anakin Skywalker was slowly lured to the Dark Side, the process lasted several years.

Luke Skywalker willingly embraced the Dark Side during the events of DE and Palpatine knew that the former would betray him at some point. Palpatine had to defeat Luke in single combat in order to break him.

And that's not my point, my point is that when Luke and Anakin were on the precipe of the dark side, as Revan and Malak were, they were mentally instable, and easily influenced. Anakin to slaughtering innocents, turning against his friends and almost murdering his wife, Luke to striking down his father and becoming Palpatine's apprentice, which would have led to the death of all his friends, and then in DE, under the dark side's influence Palpatine made him forget his name.

Being close to the dark side doesn't make you weak willed, but being between worlds as they were does. How they got into that state being entirely beside the point.

But there isn't a single example of someone successfully resisting Vitiate's telepathic assault in the first encounter.

I am fully aware of telepathic powers of UnuThul and Lord Nyax and I find Vitiate's telepathic abilities more intense in comparison. Even The Son doesn't seems to have edge over Vitiate in this area. This is not just based on number of individuals successfully possessed but some "inner details" as well.

And lmao at putting him above the Son when he know nothing of the latters TP.

Assuming that the Outlander is Hero of Tython, he have experienced Vitiate's telepathic powers beforehand and apparently developed countermeasures against them. But I wouldn't put much stock in the assumption that Vitiate couldn't affect the Outlander with his telepathic powers at all. We witness Vitiate manipulating Outlander (of any class) in the same manner.

Does SWL seriously think that Vitiate's telepathy is some "special technique" that nobody who hasn't specifically encountered it before can possibly combat, no matter how powerful? And his reasoning for this is that Revan taught Meetra and Scourge methods to defend against it - and this must mean that you have to have learned these methods. To call this a bad leap in logic would be quite the understatement.

I suppose Caedus just oneshots with shatterpoint then. Vitiate's never seen it, right? 🙄

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Does SWL seriously think that Vitiate's telepathy is some "special technique" that nobody who hasn't specifically encountered it before can possibly combat, no matter how powerful? And his reasoning for this is that Revan taught Meetra and Scourge methods to defend against it - and this must mean that you have to have learned these methods. To call this a bad leap in logic would be quite the understatement.

I suppose Caedus just oneshots with shatterpoint then. Vitiate's never seen it, right? 🙄

Well obviously... 🙄

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, that's not what I said.

And that's not my point, my point is that when Luke and Anakin were on the precipe of the dark side, as Revan and Malak were, they were mentally instable, and easily influenced. Anakin to slaughtering innocents, turning against his friends and almost murdering his wife, Luke to striking down his father and becoming Palpatine's apprentice, which would have led to the death of all his friends, and then in DE, under the dark side's influence Palpatine made him forget his name.

Being close to the dark side doesn't make you weak willed, but being between worlds as they were does. How they got into that state being entirely beside the point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So? You're appealing to ignorance, what there is not a single example of Vitiate dominating someone of Caedus' caliber without extenuating circumstances.

Another revelation is that Vitiate can telepathically influence even the most powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And lmao at putting him above the Son when he know nothing of the latters TP.

The Son possessing Ahsoka Tano is not something that Vitiate could not replicate. I'd say that Vitiate could break/possess even the likes of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Apparently? Can you clarify on that with a source? And with the HoT alone he is particular in admitting the Outlander is too powerful for him to dominate, why ignore that?

Vitiate managed to bind himself to the Outlander (Hero of Tython) against the wishes of the latter? Check

Vitiate could make the Outlander (Hero of Tython) see developments across the galaxy through powerful illusions? Check

If a player chose Vitiate's assistance during battles, the latter would begin to force his decisions upon the Outlander (irrespective of the Class) at some point? Check

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Does SWL seriously think that Vitiate's telepathy is some "special technique" that nobody who hasn't specifically encountered it before can possibly combat, no matter how powerful? And his reasoning for this is that Revan taught Meetra and Scourge methods to defend against it - and this must mean that you have to have learned these methods. To call this a bad leap in logic would be quite the understatement.

Lana Beniko managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence with great difficulty by strengthening her mental defenses beforehand (since the events of SoR) but Jedi (and/or Sith) far stronger then her couldn't.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I suppose Caedus just oneshots with shatterpoint then. Vitiate's never seen it, right? 🙄

Clearly Lana learned the special technique from Revan's ghost. No other explanation.

Team two dominates.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Lana Beniko managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence with great difficulty by strengthening her mental defenses beforehand (since the events of SoR) but Jedi (and/or Sith) far stronger then her couldn't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Such as?

Do also keep in mind that Vitiate suppressed powers of Vaylin for a long time as well. A different showing but telepathic in nature.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan?

Malak?

Hero of Tython?
Tol Braga?
Surro?

Do also keep in mind that Vitiate suppressed the powers of Vaylin for a long time as well.

Lana is really far behind HoT and Braga, lol. IIRC she was barely powerful enough to be on the Council.

You recall wrong because Lana isn't on the Council, but since neither is the Wrath or the Hero of Tython, and neither of the Councils were hardly ever based on power alone, that's some pretty shit logic to begin with.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What Beni said.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And how exactly is Lana so far behind the Hero of Tython or Braga in Act II, when she's nowhere near that far behind them in SoR?

Surro was also more powerful then Lana but she failed to resist Vitiate's influence for long.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Right. When she was a toddler. 😐

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You recall wrong because Lana isn't on the Council, but since neither is the Wrath or the Hero of Tython, and neither of the Councils were hardly ever based on power alone, that's some pretty shit logic to begin with.

Minister of Sith Intelligence. Whatever its not like there was ever a replacement for Zhorrid so she might as well have been the Councillor for the Sphere of Imperial Intelligence. Regardless, she was barely strong enough to get such a high position, whereas Braga and the HoT are among the strongest Jedi alive. Act II HoT would stomp Lana.

Lol @ the Dark Council not being predicated on strength, noob.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate broke him (and Malak) with barely an effort. Do not forget this.

Those two are counted among the most powerful Force-users of their era.

Lana Beniko is not.

Surro was also more powerful then Lana but she failed to resist Vitiate's influence for long.

The suppression continued up to the time of her adulthood.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Regardless, she was barely strong enough to get such a high position, whereas Braga and the HoT are among the strongest Jedi alive. Act II HoT would stomp Lana.

Lol @ the Dark Council not being predicated on strength, noob.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Hero of Tython? Yes. Tol Braga? Not really.

Except for having an exception connection to the Force that impresses her peers and the Dark Council. Sounds like you just made up a list of names because you don't actually have any gauge to judge her, or anyone in TOR really, by.

Braga was the head of a team comprised of the "strongest" "most powerful and most resolute Jedi in the Order" and is clearly second only to the Hero on that team. He also fought a Dark Councillor for several days. Obviously he's among the top Force Users in the era.

"Exceptional" connections to the Force are nothing to the Hero getting called the strongest Jedi from Tython onwards. Her impressing the Council is nothing compared to Braga and the Hero being Dark Council+.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Braga was the head of a team comprised of the "strongest" "most powerful and most resolute Jedi in the Order" and is clearly second only to the Hero on that team. He also fought a Dark Councillor for several days. Obviously he's among the top Force Users in the era.

"Exceptional" connections to the Force are nothing to the Hero getting called the strongest Jedi from Tython onwards.

Her impressing the Council is nothing compared to Braga and the Hero being Dark Council+.

And since we're talking about the HoT and Braga, I'll take that as a concession.

Well I wrote the Respect thread that says it is true, but ok.

Being called exceptional isn't the same as being called the strongest Jedi alive. Duh. Also Braga and the HoT both actually beat Dark Council member level opponents so its not just being called anything.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because of the reason Beni gave, which is the reason the book gave. Do not forget this.

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Intended message is that while Revan and Malak were on the precipice of the Dark Side at that time, Vitiate didn't had to exert to break them either. Therefore, even in a more fair scenario, the end-result would have been the same.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Hero of Tython? Yes. Tol Braga? Not really.

Raw power aside, Tol Braga was also among the most strong-willed Jedi of the era. He was recognized as the conscience of the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except for having an exception connection to the Force that impresses her peers and the Dark Council. Sounds like you just made up a list of names because you don't actually have any gauge to judge her, or anyone in TOR really, by.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You still haven't given what this is based on. She's literally a one off, who's only impressive showings are under Vitiate's control.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because she was a vegetable. It's kind of hard to grow when you can barely think.

Vaylin's powers began to manifest when she was in the womb of her mother.