Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDActually the quote says he turned them to the dark side with barely an effort, not necessarily broke their minds. 😉
Revan and Malak were on the precipice of the Dark Side at that time, I agree. However, Vitiate broke them with barely an effort.
Regardless, we are discussing a notably stronger Force user here.
Vitiate demonstrated the capability to influence an entire planet's populace alongside Jedi Masters, Sith and battle-hardened troops with his telepathic powers. And you still question his prowess in telepathy.Nope, just your assessment. Note that he did those things as a spirit, which tend to be more telepathically dominating as they are able to fully possess their targets.
I'm not confident that's something he could achieve in corporeal form. But as you pointed out his powers didn't stretch beyond possessing individuals like Lana Beniko.
Another revelation is that Vitiate can telepathically influence even the most powerful Jedi.Which is evidently hyperbole and/or relative to the era. Nor is Caedus a Jedi.
You think that I lack knowledge of Mortis story arc?Typo, I meant we. As in, we've hardly seen what the Son is telepathically capable of.The Son possessing Ahsoka Tano is not something that Vitiate could not replicate. I'd say that Vitiate could break/possess even the likes of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
That is what I make of the Hero of Tython's implied invulnerability to telepathic influence. I don't buy it.It isn't really up for debate. The HoT says he's too powerful for Valkorion to dominate him, and Valkorion agrees with him. Plain as day my friend.
Vitiate managed to bind himself to the Outlander (Hero of Tython) against the wishes of the latter? CheckWhile he was unconscious, and could only influence him with permission.
Vitiate could make the Outlander (Hero of Tython) see developments across the galaxy through powerful illusions? CheckSidious made Yoda see potent visions as well, but Yoda remained too powerful for him to dominate.
If a player chose Vitiate's assistance during battles, the latter would begin to force his decisions upon the Outlander (irrespective of the Class) at some point? CheckWhich only implies letting Valkorion in gave him greater hold over you. Note that he doesn't if you don't, despite evidently wanting to.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually the quote says he turned them to the dark side with barely an effort, not necessarily broke their minds. 😉
The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
If Vitiate had just turned them to the Dark Side then why would they feel the need to lessen his influence over them at some point?
"Our wills were stronger than he thought; our minds twisted and perverted his instructions until we thought we were acting of our own accord. Malak and I were turned to the dark side, but in doing so we found the strength to block out all memory of the Sith and the Emperor, partially freeing us from his control." (Revan)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, we are discussing a notably stronger Force user here.
When Revan confronted Mandalore, he was (already) the most powerful Jedi of the Order at that time.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, just your assessment. Note that he did those things as a spirit, which tend to be more telepathically dominating as they are able to fully possess their targets.I'm not confident that's something he could achieve in corporeal form. But as you pointed out his powers didn't stretch beyond possessing individuals like Lana Beniko.
Vitiate is not a true spirit, he is an entity. And whatever he did on Ziost, is representative of his own power. More importantly, he was replenishing his strength during the Ziost based story-arc. You need to pay attention to what is stated in the codex entries:
Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)
---
Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour--what now?
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Vitiate"😉
Lana Beniko managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence because she had been strengthening her mental defenses beforehand and the latter was preoccupied with telepathically influencing countless individuals on Ziost (a feat that takes lot of energy). Therefore, the effectiveness of Beniko's resistance is absolutely circumstantial. In a more fair scenario, Vitiate wouldn't find it difficult to break the likes of Lana Beniko.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which is evidently hyperbole and/or relative to the era. Nor is Caedus a Jedi.
Lord Nyax came very close to breaking Luke Skywalker in a confrontation but the latter's allies prevented this.
Doesn't makes a difference if Darth Caedus is a Sith or not; Vitiate can telepathically affect a practitioner of the Dark Side just as easily.
Logic and common sense, my friend. Make it a habit of using them.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Typo, I meant we. As in, we've hardly seen what the Son is telepathically capable of.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It isn't really up for debate. The HoT says he's too powerful for Valkorion to dominate him, and Valkorion agrees with him. Plain as day my friend.
As a player, you get to boast about your capabilities several times. Even during occasions where you are getting your @ss kicked.
For example:
"You don't know what I am capable of." (Outlander, Chapter 12) - while getting his @ss kicked.
I don't put much stock in such claims.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
While he was unconscious, and could only influence him with permission.
Watch this: https://i.imgur.com/K3jDQRO.webm
It was a forceful binding effort and it knocked Outlander unconscious.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious made Yoda see potent visions as well, but Yoda remained too powerful for him to dominate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which only implies letting Valkorion in gave him greater hold over you. Note that he doesn't if you don't, despite evidently wanting to.
The Outlander can be a smuggler so you think that a smuggler could resist Vitiate's telepathic influence? 🙄
Logic and common sense, my friend. Make it a habit of using them.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDI didn't say he didn't break them, only that all its stated he did was ease was complete there fall. That doesn't mean it took a fraction of his power to warp their minds as well. 👆
If Vitiate had just turned them to the Dark Side then why would they feel the need to lessen his influence over them at some point?
I really doubt that Darth Caedus is stronger then Revan and/or have more raw power then Revan and Malak's put together.OK, but Revan and Malak are still individuals, not a collective entity, even if they did face Vitiate together.When Revan confronted Mandalore, he was (already) the most powerful Jedi of the Order at that time.
You make it sound like as if a Force-user becomes more powerful in the ways of the Force as a spirit; this is a logical fallacy. A spirit is free from the limitations of movement in a corporeal form and can manifest anywhere where a living being is present; this is its only advantage. A spirit does not becomes a potent telepath either; in most cases, a spirit is terribly restricted in the aspect of affecting the external environment.Lmao, I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Anyway, spirits/entities are able to possess people, which yes makes them more mentally dominating whether they are stronger or not. Case in point Kallig alone possessed everyone and anyone who entered the Sith Temple, hundreds of beings, many of them Sith Lords.
Valkorion can't possess people in corporeal form, it's that simple.
And I doubt Lana even with her mental defences strengthened in on level with Caedus.
Lana Beniko managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence because she had been strengthening her mental defenses beforehand and the latter was preoccupied with telepathically influencing countless individuals on Ziost (a feat that takes lot of energy). Therefore, the effectiveness of Beniko's resistance is absolutely circumstantial. In a more fair scenario, Vitiate wouldn't find it difficult to break the likes of Lana Beniko.I doubt Lana even with her mental defences strengthened in on level with Caedus.
No, it is not a hyperbole. roll eyes (sarcastic) It is a reasonable/believable revelation. Vitiate's showings on Ziost lend credibility to this revelation.Seeing as his powers cap at the Outlander, I'd say it is. 🙂Lord Nyax came very close to breaking Luke Skywalker in a confrontation but the latter's allies prevented this.
Doesn't makes a difference if Darth Caedus is a Sith or not; Vitiate can telepathically affect a practitioner of the Dark Side just as easily.
Logic and common sense, my friend. Make it a habit of using them.
And that's a feat for Nyax, not Vitiate. 😬
Regardless, its era bound and neither does it preclude the target being unconscious, or the use of nexus and ritual.
Valkorion was just being nice to him.Difference here being Valkorion actually agrees with you. "Valkorion being nice to him" being a laughable claim with no basis 😂 The last thing Valkorion is, is nice, lmao!As a player, you get to boast about your capabilities several times. Even during occasions where you are getting your @ss kicked.
For example:
"You don't know what I am capable of." (Outlander, Chapter 12) - while getting his @ss kicked.
I don't put much stock in such claims.
Palpatine is not stated to have the capability to telepathically affect and/or break the most powerful Jedi of the Order. And Palpatine seldom uses his telepathic powers in combat situations. Vitiate on the other hand...Right, because the dark side burst, the kind that killed Darth Vader. They are quite potent.
And this is just a story-telling mechanic.Right, so canonically the Outlander is probably not the smuggler, clever inference.The Outlander can be a smuggler so you think that a smuggler could resist Vitiate's telepathic influence? roll eyes (sarcastic)
Logic and common sense, my friend. Make it a habit of using them.
More then that.The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
If Vitiate had just turned them to the Dark Side then why would they feel the need to lessen his influence over them at some point?
"Our wills were stronger than he thought; our minds twisted and perverted his instructions until we thought we were acting of our own accord. Malak and I were turned to the dark side, but in doing so we found the strength to block out all memory of the Sith and the Emperor, partially freeing us from his control." (Revan)
Firstly, the fact that their being on the precipice of the dark side made them easier to control doesn't mean that all Vitiate did was turn them. But it's literally stated that their temptation made them easier to control - that's neither in dispute nor mutually exclusive from their being dominated.
Secondly, the fact that they were able to eventually break free from his grasp through sheer force of will suggests that a sufficient strength of will would have been enough to resist him outright, unless if Vitiate's initial domination is literally infinitely more powerful than his lingering effects. It's not some sort of magic insta-kill move that nobody can guard against.
Indeed, the Outlander is more powerful than what Valkorion could control, so color me skeptical that novel Vitiate could do anything to a guy who resisted UnuThul. 😆
I really doubt that Darth Caedus is stronger then Revan and/or have more raw power then Revan and Malak's put together.
The second question is irrelevant, seeing as how it's not like Revan and Malak were able to combine their mental resistance or something. Caedus's status above Vader and performance against Luke certainly puts him above post mando wars Revan, who hasn't really done anything to put him anywhere near that level.
And if you wish to demonstrate otherwise, just saying "he's a very powerful Jedi" isn't enough - we've talked about this, you need to do comparative analysis. Get working on it.
When Revan confronted Mandalore, he was (already) the most powerful Jedi of the Order at that time.
Is this supposed to mean something? lol
You make it sound like as if a Force-user becomes more powerful in the ways of the Force as a spirit; this is a logical fallacy.
Not to nitpick, but this isn't what a logical fallacy is...
Vitiate is not a true spirit, he is an entity. And whatever he did on Ziost, is representative of his own power. More importantly, he was replenishing his strength during the Ziost based story-arc. You need to pay attention to what is stated in the codex entries:
Ah, so he isn't weaker as a spirit than as a living person. Well, thanks for preempting anyone making that argument.
Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.
This fight is novel Vitiate, BTW.
Logic and common sense, my friend. Make it a habit of using them.
This is hilarious. You actually think you're some sort of brilliant debater, lol.
Valkorion was just being nice to him.
🤣
Palpatine is not stated to have the capability to telepathically affect and/or break the most powerful Jedi of the Order.
He broke Luke, lol.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not even close. 😬
As an overall combatant? Sure. Nexus-amped Vitiate can't overpower Revan with his uncharged lightning, and indeed gets knocked on his ass by it. He subsequently gets disarmed like a joke by Meetra's saber throw, and almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower.
Novel Vitiate isn't very impressive tbh. As of that point in time, the most he's done in combative circumstances is to dominate pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, which you don't even think is very impressive, kill a dark council with prep and mysterious circumstances, and kill his featless father. Even if he exceeds Caedus in raw power, he's a sh*t combatant who doesn't know how to deal with fighting someone he can't just outright dominate.
Caedus, meanwhile, demonstrates a significantly superior acumen and acclimation to actual combat, can engage both from a distance and in melee, and has a ridiculous damage soak. I also wouldn't be surprised if he could fool Vitiate with his illusions, given that he's done it with Luke.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I didn't say he didn't break them, only that all its stated he did was ease was complete there fall. That doesn't mean it took a fraction of his power to warp their minds as well. 👆
It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
---
The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
---
Realizing this Empire was the true threat to the Republic, Revan and Malak faced the Sith Emperor himself, intending to cut off the serpent's head--but the Emperor was too powerful. Overwhelmed by the Emperor's dark presence, they pledged themselves to his service.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "Galactic History 74: Revan and Malak Fall"
The revelations are telling you the same thing but differ in semantics.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK, but Revan and Malak are still individuals, not a collective entity, even if they did face Vitiate together.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao, I don't think that word means what you think it means.Anyway, spirits/entities are able to possess people, which yes makes them more mentally dominating whether they are stronger or not. Case in point Kallig alone possessed everyone and anyone who entered the Sith Temple, hundreds of beings, many of them Sith Lords.
Among the spirits that Darth Nox bind himself to, Aloysius Kallig and Horak Mul were the only ones that could possess living beings. Others could not.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion can't possess people in corporeal form, it's that simple.
What do you think a Voice was?
The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor. Over the centuries, the Emperor has taken many Voices from young children to alien species. When the Voice speaks, it does so with the Emperor's cold, emotionless, and commanding tone. The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down anyone who displeases him. Those who converse with the Voice are overwhelmed with dread and unshakable obedience. To speak with the Voice is to speak with the Emperor himself.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Voice was the primary host and Vitiate created a large number of secondary hosts that were recognized as his Children. Vitiate was able to spread his essence across hundreds of individuals and disperse them across the galaxy to serve as his eyes and ears. This is an excellent example of multi-tasking on his part.
By drawing on his incredible dark powers, the Emperor imprinted his consciousness onto unwitting pawns who would serve as vessels for carrying out his will. Through the eyes and ears of these "children," he would uncover threats in both the Empire and Republic while they were still nothing but whispers. And should the need arise, the Emperor could seize control of his children and instruct them to crush any plot that dared defy his will.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
&
For the rest of their lives, these unwitting pawns would serve as the eyes and ears of the Emperor. And should he desire their action, the Emperor could reach out and control them to enact his will. Thus the Children of the Emperor were born.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Point is that Vitiate was already burdened with using a large number of vessels such as Voices and Children for different purposes across the galaxy during the events of SWTOR. In addition to such activities, he managed to break and possess 4 powerful Jedi during a confrontation and use them as his pwns for a lengthy period of time afterwards.
In the nutshell:
Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Codex Entry titled "Valkorion."
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I doubt Lana even with her mental defences strengthened in on level with Caedus.
Point is that Vitiate was preoccupied with possessing a large number of individuals across the planet Ziost and Lana Beniko didn't matter much. In a more fair scenario, it is reasonable to assume that Vitiate would succeed at breaking and possessing Lana Beniko.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Seeing as his powers cap at the Outlander, I'd say it is. 🙂
I'd say that even Revan did not become invulnerable to Vitiate's telepathic influence even after strengthening his mental defenses; Revan managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic probing for centuries by replenishing himself from the energy of Force ghost of Meetra Surik whenever this would be necessary (in this manner, his resolve and strength would not weaken). If Surik's ghost had not been on his side, Revan would have likely fallen again or worse.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And that's a feat for Nyax, not Vitiate. 😬Regardless, its era bound and neither does it preclude the target being unconscious, or the use of nexus and ritual.
And that statement is not era bound. It is from a codex entry that covers entire galactic history:
The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side. Jedi Master Tol Braga's strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader’s oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Difference here being Valkorion actually agrees with you. "Valkorion being nice to him" being a laughable claim with no basis 😂 The last thing Valkorion is, is nice, lmao!Right, because the dark side burst, the kind that killed Darth Vader. They are quite potent.Right, so canonically the Outlander is probably not the smuggler, clever inference.
I am not saying that we do not take Vitiate's statements seriously (there is a great deal of truth in them) but we need to focus on the context as well. We need to keep in mind that Vitiate is manipulating the Outlander (slowly but surely brainwashing him to do his bidding). It would not make sense for Vitiate to forcefully override decisions of the Outlander because this defeat the purpose of brainwashing the Outlander (and KoTFE story arc). But the codex entry makes it clear that Vitiate have the power to possess others and use them as his pwns.
Context, my friend.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
As an overall combatant? Sure. Nexus-amped Vitiate can't overpower Revan with his uncharged lightning, and indeed gets knocked on his ass by it. He subsequently gets disarmed like a joke by Meetra's saber throw, and almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower.Novel Vitiate isn't very impressive tbh. As of that point in time, the most he's done in combative circumstances is to dominate pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, which you don't even think is very impressive, kill a dark council with prep and mysterious circumstances, and kill his featless father. Even if he exceeds Caedus in raw power, he's a sh*t combatant who doesn't know how to deal with fighting someone he can't just outright dominate.
Caedus, meanwhile, demonstrates a significantly superior acumen and acclimation to actual combat, can engage both from a distance and in melee, and has a ridiculous damage soak. I also wouldn't be surprised if he could fool Vitiate with his illusions, given that he's done it with Luke.
Vitiate was surprised by Meetra because he wasn't aware she was in a position to attack him and he thought the droid so inconsequential as to be not worth paying attention to it. Not exactly sure how either is relevant in a 1 on 1 fight where he'll be totally focused on Caedus. Caedus isn't going to have help pop out of his ass to save it. I mean Jacen almost got killed by Mara who utterly outmaneuvered him. Not exactly relevant here though.
Vitiate was at this point so powerful that Revan could barely affect a mere drone drawing on his power and wiped out entire Dark Council's. Caedus' force attacks will do nothing and Caedus hasn't demonstrated defense against lightning remotely on par with Revan's. Even if you were right about his combat abilities, unfortunately he pretty much can outright dominate Caedus just like he did to Revan.
Also lol, Luke made Jacen his utter b*tch with illusions. He literally humiliated him in front of his own army.
You got it wrong! Vitiate completed their fall by warping their minds. Here are the revelations.Hmm? Still seeing a distinction made between warping and falling. Thanks for highlighting it. 🙂
Yes! But Vitiate overwhelmed their defenses collectively. 😉Cool. Still not the same.
Spirits are not able to possess people by default. Only those spirits can possess people who learned the ability of Essence Transfer and/or were proficient in the use of Telepathy during corporeal existence and retained such abilities after corporeal demise.Do you have a point? Those spirits/entities that can possess people, like Valkorion, are still more telepathically potent.Among the spirits that Darth Nox bind himself to, Aloysius Kallig and Horak Mul were the only ones that could possess living beings. Others could not.
What do you think a Voice was?Lmao. Which he achieved through extracting his essence and/or extensive ritual, apparatus, prep, etc. you seriously think he could pull that off in a combat situation?
And why should we assume this? Master Surro was more powerful then Lana Beniko but failed to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence for long; she did managed to break free from his influence for a brief period but Vitiate did not give up on her because she was proving to be an excellent vessel due to her abilities.Why should we assume she is? Its not as if Surro is anywhere near Caedus either.Point is that Vitiate was preoccupied with possessing a large number of individuals across the planet Ziost and Lana Beniko didn't matter much. In a more fair scenario, it is reasonable to assume that Vitiate would succeed at breaking and possessing Lana Beniko.
But OK, it doesn't really matter as he was non-coporeal.
I'd say that even Revan did not become invulnerable to Vitiate's telepathic influence even after strengthening his mental defenses; Revan managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic probing for centuries by replenishing himself from the energy of Force ghost of Meetra Surik whenever this would be necessary (in this manner, his resolve and strength would not weaken). If Surik's ghost had not been on his side, Revan would have likely fallen again or worse.Jedi spirits don't have "energy". They are cosmic beings. All Meetra could have done is strengthened resolve.
Regardless its irrelevant considering he did so for three hundred years despite Vitiate having the Dread Masters for support, his target being unconscious and being mentally linked to his mind.
Of course Revan could resist the Emperor without those massive disadvantages. 😂
Vitiate's telepathic abilities are more intense then those of Lord Nyax. The former also have superior showings then the latter in the use of Telepathy.Orly? When has Vitiate TP'ed a Luke tier Force user?
And that statement is not era bound. It is from a codex entry that covers entire galactic historyDoes it cover galactic events post-TOR?
Vitiate cannot be trusted, he have an agenda.Exactly, if Valkorion could dominate the Outlander straight up, he wouldn't be messing around with all this manipulation crap. Evidently that's beyond his capability.I am not saying that we do not take Vitiate's statements seriously (there is a great deal of truth in them) but we need to focus on the context as well. We need to keep in mind that Vitiate is manipulating the Outlander (slowly but surely brainwashing him to do his bidding). It would not make sense for Vitiate to forcefully override decisions of the Outlander because this defeat the purpose of brainwashing the Outlander (and KoTFE story arc). But the codex entry makes it clear that Vitiate have the power to possess others and use them as his pwns.
Context, my friend.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hmm? Still seeing a distinction made between warping and falling. Thanks for highlighting it. 🙂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool. Still not the same.
3 + 1 = 4
Even if Revan and Malak were single entity, Vitiate would have overwhelmed it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you have a point? Those spirits/entities that can possess people, like Valkorion, are still more telepathically potent.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao. Which he achieved through extracting his essence and/or extensive ritual, apparatus, prep, etc. you seriously think he could pull that off in a combat situation?
Vitiate could use Essence Transfer for the said purpose.
And why Vitiate would not be able to posses another individual during combat situation? Read this:
Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Codex Entry titled "Valkorion."
We (as players) also witness Vitiate possessing countless individuals on Ziost. Your non-corporeal vs. corporeal theory in this regard doesn't have any credibility.
I assume that you are a grown-up person, Beni. I shouldn't re-cite official statements again and again for you to grasp and understand.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why should we assume she is? Its not as if Surro is anywhere near Caedus either.
My point is that being more powerful then Lana Beniko is not a guaranteed defense against Vitiate's telepathic influence.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But OK, it doesn't really matter as he was non-coporeal.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Jedi spirits don't have "energy". They are cosmic beings. All Meetra could have done is strengthened resolve.Regardless its irrelevant considering he did so for three hundred years despite Vitiate having the Dread Masters for support, his target being unconscious and being mentally linked to his mind.
Revan wasn't unconscious during the ordeal; he regained his senses during captivity. An unconscious person wouldn't be able to resist or would he?
Revan managed to resist that long because he was able to replenish his strength by siphoning energy of Meetra Surik's spiritual presence nearby whenever he would grow weak. Nonetheless, there were consequences for resisting telepathic influence of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for that long; the ordeal would lead to Revan's fracture. Nonetheless, Revan became an exception in this regard, not the norm.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Of course Revan could resist the Emperor without those massive disadvantages. 😂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Orly? When has Vitiate TP'ed a Luke tier Force user?
Lord Nyax had the ability to break Luke Skywalker with his telepathic abilities. So Lord Nyax was more powerful as well?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Does it cover galactic events post-TOR?
The revelation is not that Vitiate could break any Jedi that existed up to his time. Its context is broader.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, if Valkorion could dominate the Outlander straight up, he wouldn't be messing around with all this manipulation crap. Evidently that's beyond his capability.
Vitiate's intent was to manipulate and brainwash the Outlander to do his bidding. His intent was not to take control of the Outlander and use him as his pwn because he attempted this before and it was a short-term gain. The Outlander - as an ally - and ruler of the Eternal Empire was more appealing.
Aryn Leneer was in multiple places at once and moving so fast milliseconds seemed like minutes or something. Marr moved so fast he seemed to teleport to Darth Lachris (iirc her name). The HoT, Satele, Zallow, the Wrath and others have blitzed multiple Jedi and Sith at once. Revan and Vitiate had an entire battle in a few seconds (compared to Caedus' timekeeping in his Katarn duel, Revan and Vitiate's duel was faster imo).
This will be my last response LeG, do your best to learn something.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDYou mean he warped their minds after completing their fall. ✅
Vitiate completed their fall [by] warping their minds. Why is this even a debate?
🙄No it doesn't, goodness.3 + 1 = 4
Even if Revan and Malak were single entity, Vitiate would have overwhelmed it.
Malak and Revan did not combine their powers into a single TP defence, therefore no, you cannot claim Vitiate could overwhelm them if they were a single entity.
Yes: Spirits - that can posses people - acquired this ability during corporeal existence and retained this ability after their corporeal demise. No rocket science here."Grown-up person", lmao.Vitiate could use Essence Transfer for the said purpose.
And why Vitiate would not be able to posses another individual during combat situation? Read this:
Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings.
From [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Codex Entry titled "Valkorion."
We (as players) also witness Vitiate possessing countless individuals on Ziost. Your non-corporeal vs. corporeal theory in this regard doesn't have any credibility.
I assume that you are a grown-up person, Beni. I shouldn't re-cite official statements again and again for you to grasp and understand.[/b]
No sources you have raised proves he can perform this in a combat situation.
The only instance of that happening is Bane, which 1. Required physical contact and 2. Resulted in the destruction of his physical body (that might not be the case for Vitiate, but at the very least his body would be dispossessed and vulnerable).
It was a last ditch attempt for Bane and I doubt Vitiate would get that desperate. I mean really, essence transfer in combat? Be reasonable. It certainly has no bearing on his ability to dominate Caedus with his standard telepathy alone.
So your applying a no-limits fallacy then? Gotcha.My point is that being more powerful then Lana Beniko is not a guaranteed defense against Vitiate's telepathic influence.
So you are admitting that Vitiate could break/possess Darth Caedus? Good.Seeing as non-corporeal Valkorion couldn't even break/possess the HoT? No lmao.
Spirits are manifestations of energy irrespective of their alignment. Darth Nox managed to bind a Jedi spirit to himself as well, just like a Sith spirit.No, but they are cosmic beings. They don't have a connection to the living Force.Revan wasn't unconscious during the ordeal; he regained his senses during captivity. An unconscious person wouldn't be able to resist or would he?
Revan managed to resist that long because he was able to replenish his strength by siphoning energy of Meetra Surik's spiritual presence nearby whenever he would grow weak. Nonetheless, there were consequences for resisting telepathic influence of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for that long; the ordeal would lead to Revan's fracture. Nonetheless, Revan became an exception in this regard, not the norm.
Sith Spirits cling to the physical plane, and therefore living energy, Jedi spirits do the opposite and are rarely able to effect the physical plane in profound ways, and never have they been depicted as a source of considerable power.
It's unlikely Meetra would have been a notable well of strength for him at all.
Regardless, as I said given the circumstances, it's largely a moot point. All it does it mitigate the significant disadvantages he was up against. The Revan novel implying all it made possible was his ability to invade the Emperor's own mind:
"Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay."
I also forgot to mention was that Vitiate was siphoning Revan's power on top of all this. Really it's kind of sad that despite all that, he still couldn't get into Revan's head. 😂
No.Compelling.
Raw power is not as relevant as you assume it to be in this case.I'll take that as a no, hence Nyax is the stronger telepath. 👆Lord Nyax had the ability to break Luke Skywalker with his telepathic abilities. So Lord Nyax was more powerful as well?
Why would it not?Erm, it's not a question that warrants a speculative answer.The revelation is not that Vitiate could break any Jedi that existed up to his time. Its context is broader.
Does or does not the codex entry describe, implicitly or explicitly, events post-TOR? The answer is no, it does not, it only refers to events up until the SWTOR time period.
You have no basis therefore to assume it has any authority on subsequent eras, the statement is no broader than Vitiate's accolade as the "most powerful Sith." i.e. era bound.
Brainwash and manipulate to do his bidding is what he did to the HoT before, and it's what he did to Revan and Malak. Last time the HoT broke free from his control, and now the HoT is too powerful for Valkorion to brainwash instantly by his own omission.Vitiate's intent was to manipulate and brainwash the Outlander to do his bidding. His intent was not to take control of the Outlander and use him as his pwn because he attempted this before and it was a short-term gain. The Outlander - as an ally - and ruler of the Eternal Empire was more appealing.
Those are the facts. 🙂