Darth Caedus and Darth Vader vs. novel Vitiate and Arcann

Revan's mental war against Vitiate was more of a success on Revan's part, if that's what you're trying to argue, yeah. Revan got "centuries of knowledge" from him, postponed the Great Galactic War for three centuries, and then persuaded the Emperor to initiate the Treaty of Courscant. In contrast, even with the aid of the Dread Masters, Vitiate was able to pull forth little of Revan's actual memories, retrieve the location of the Foundry, was unable to turn him back to Darth Revan, and instead led him on his road to become a zombie powerhouse destined to do whatever it took to kill him.

More like destined to throw a phoenix down on him because he was so insane and traumatized he thought helping Vitiate come back to life was a solid plan.

I recently discussed to SupremeSkillz about this and we believe Revan's plan was to wage a mental war against Vitiate, similiar to that of Darth Zannah vs Darth Bane at the end of the third novel, and then thus vanquish him forever that way. In such a case, it's not that ridiculous for Revan to assume that he would have lost to the creature he had just held off for three centuries with rather great success. This theory is at large part due to the fact that there was no other body in the area for Revan to transport Vitiate in to actually fight him besides his own.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
This will be my last response, do your best to learn something.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean he warped their minds after completing their fall. ✅

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No it doesn't, goodness.

Malak and Revan did not combine their powers into a single TP defence, therefore no, you cannot claim Vitiate could overwhelm them if they were a single entity.

Lana Beniko, Senya and the Outlander attempted to lift the Gravestone through their collective effort and succeeded in doing so (Chapter 4). So you think that they all combined their powers into a single TK?

5 Jedi gestured towards a formation of rock and breached it through their collective effort (Chapter 9). So you think that they all combined their powers into a single TK?

The word "combined might" doesn't necessarily implies combined strength in literal sense.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Grown-up person", lmao.

No sources you have raised proves he can perform this in a combat situation.

The only instance of that happening is Bane, which 1. Required physical contact and 2. Resulted in the destruction of his physical body (that might not be the case for Vitiate, but at the very least his body would be dispossessed and vulnerable).

It was a last ditch attempt for Bane and I doubt Vitiate would get that desperate. I mean really, essence transfer in combat? Be reasonable. It certainly has no bearing on his ability to dominate Caedus with his standard telepathy alone.

The statement is explicit:

Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Codex Entry titled "Valkorion."

- Vitiate has the power to perform the deed in any situation. We notice him doing this on Ziost with impunity. Initially, a few might have been caught by surprise but eventually the word would have spread that Vitiate is here and possessing individuals. However, many were helpless regardless of awareness. No where it is implied that Valkorion can do the deed with exception of combat situation.

In-fact, Vitiate re-possessed many individuals after they were freed from his spell through electrostatic weapons. Here:

YouTube video

7:00 - 7:07

Your argument is utterly flawed.

You are imposing limitations of Darth Bane over Vitiate? Seriously? There is some other stuff that Darth Bane couldn't perform on his own. 🙄

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So your applying a no-limits fallacy then? Gotcha.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Seeing as non-corporeal Valkorion couldn't even break/possess the HoT? No lmao.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, but they are cosmic beings. They don't have a connection to the living Force.

Sith Spirits cling to the physical plane, and therefore living energy, Jedi spirits do the opposite and are rarely able to effect the physical plane in profound ways, and never have they been depicted as a source of considerable power.
It's unlikely Meetra would have been a notable well of strength for him at all.

As for affecting the external environment:

- Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit was able to lift and levitate Yoda
- Revan's spirit was able to affect external environment through its telekinetic abilities.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, as I said given the circumstances, it's largely a moot point. All it does it mitigate the significant disadvantages he was up against. The Revan novel implying all it made possible was his ability to invade the Emperor's own mind:

"Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay."

I also forgot to mention was that Vitiate was siphoning Revan's power on top of all this. Really it's kind of sad that despite all that, he still couldn't get into Revan's head. 😂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'll take that as a no, hence Nyax is the stronger telepath. 👆

Lord Nyax

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

From Enemy Lines - Rebel Stand

Vitiate

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his
true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up
off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Observation: Vitiate's telepathic assault is clearly more intense.

---

Lord Nyax managed to telepathically subjugated a large number of workers and used them as his pwns.

Lord Nyax watched as his workers swarmed toward the warriors he could not sense. He did not like the fact that he could not feel them, but he did enjoy seeing his workers kill them-though it was usually at a cost of twenty or thirty workers per warrior.

But he was summoning more workers from all around. No matter how well they hid in the ruined undercity, his call reached them and forced many, most, to climb free of their hiding holes, to stumble and then walk and then race toward the scene of this conflict.

From Enemy Lines - Rebel Stand

Vitiate telepathically subjugated almost the entire populace of Ziost (including Jedi Masters, Sith and battle-hardened troops of Republic and Empire).

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

&

Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power. Speaking through those he’s possessed, he controls powerful pawns like Master Surro, the leader of a team of elite militarized Jedi known as the Sixth Line.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

&

The Emperor escaped destruction on Yavin 4, and now his presence has been felt on the planet Ziost, once powerful throne world of the Sith Empire. You are called upon again to face this galactic menace when your allies realize that the entire planet’s inhabitants have been mind-controlled.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Community News "Welcome to Game Update 3.2: Rise of the Emperor"

Observation: Vitiate is clearly the superior telepath.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Erm, it's not a question that warrants a speculative answer.

Does or does not the codex entry describe, implicitly or explicitly, events post-TOR? The answer is no, it does not, it only refers to events up until the SWTOR time period.

You have no basis therefore to assume it has any authority on subsequent eras, the statement is no broader than Vitiate's accolade as the "most powerful Sith." i.e. era bound.

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."

- doesn't sounds like era bound to me. The codex entry contains examples of some of the most powerful Jedi whom Vitiate dominated through his telepathic abilities but this doesn't implies that the aforementioned revelation is era bound; it is not.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Brainwash and manipulate to do his bidding is what he did to the HoT before, and it's what he did to Revan and Malak. Last time the HoT broke free from his control, and now the HoT is too powerful for Valkorion to brainwash instantly by his own omission.

Those are the facts. 🙂

Analogy:-

Revan is stated to have become far more powerful at the time of his second confrontation with Vitiate.

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more
powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Do you think that this revelation implies growth in raw power only? No.

The novel tells us that Revan had already become the most powerful Jedi of his era (or perhaps galactic history) at the time of his confrontation with Mandalore the Ultimate.

Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Therefore, the [top] revelation is implying that Revan is much more learned in the ways of the Force now then he had been before.

Some food for though from Drew Karpyshyn:

"[...] On some days, the younger, pre-rebirth Revan might be stronger, on other days the wiser, more mature older Revan might have the upper hand. It depends on all sorts of circumstances. The example I give is with pro athletes. Is Tiger Woods from 2000 better than Tiger from 2006? One was younger and hit the ball farther, the other was wiser and had more control of his game. If they played a match, who knows who would win? If they played 10 matches, I doubt one version would win them all. So, really, who is stronger? I feel the same way about Revan." (Credit to member DarthAnt66)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I also forgot to mention was that Vitiate was siphoning Revan's power on top of all this. Really it's kind of sad that despite all that, he still couldn't get into Revan's head. 😂

While Revan managed to resist Vitiate's probing efforts to a great extent, this prolonged clash of wills between them eventually led to Revan's mind getting splintered and his corporeal-self to fall to the Dark Side:

He was captured and held in stasis by the Emperor for more than three hundred years, where he suffered under the Emperor's mental interrogation. He escaped at last, and it is clear that centuries spent linked to the Emperor's mind had a profound effect on him. During the Mandalorian Wars, Revan was willing to sacrifice his own troops to achieve military objectives; his creation of extermination droids now goes even further, demonstrating Revan's fanatical belief that any sacrifice is worthwhile to stop the Emperor. Perhaps he is mad–the cost, paid willingly, to battle the Emperor's will and even exert his own influence on the Emperor to keep him in check. Or perhaps the ideals of the Jedi proved insufficient, in the end, for a man neither Jedi nor Sith.

From SWTOR codex entry titled "Revan Reborn"

Moreover, Revan would not have coped with Vitiate's mental torture forever even with Meetra Surik's assistance:

"His strength will fail. Then, he will become the darkness." (Meetra Surik Force ghost)

As I said I'm not going to bother with another full-bodied response.

However, I will take the time to laugh at this particular part.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is a comparison on a deeper level:-

[b]Lord Nyax

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

From Enemy Lines - Rebel Stand

Vitiate

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his
true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up
off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Observation: Vitiate's telepathic assault is clearly more intense. [/B]

There we go.

Also, I accept your concession on that last point. Took long enough. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As I said I'm not going to bother with another full-bodied response.

However, I will take the time to laugh at this particular part.

There we go.

Vitiate's telepathy is more creepy and intense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate's telepathy is more creepy and intense.

Vitiate's telepathy have hype in encyclopedic medium.

1/3

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Firstly, the fact that their being on the precipice of the dark side made them easier to control doesn't mean that all Vitiate did was turn them. But it's literally stated that their temptation made them easier to control - that's neither in dispute nor mutually exclusive from their being dominated.

Though I would like to highlight another aspect: it is apparent that Vitiate managed to warp the minds of Revan and Malak with barely an effort because the Jedi were on the precipice of the Dark Side at this point. However, let us assume a more fair scenario. Suppose that the Jedi are not on the precipice of the Dark Side! Then what? If just a fraction of Vitiate's loathsome power was sufficient to warp their minds in the original scenario, Vitiate should still have lot of room to break the same Jedi in the more fair scenario.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Secondly, the fact that they were able to eventually break free from his grasp through sheer force of will suggests that a sufficient strength of will would have been enough to resist him outright, unless if Vitiate's initial domination is literally infinitely more powerful than his lingering effects. It's not some sort of magic insta-kill move that nobody can guard against.

It is possible that Vitiate's initial domination is infinitely more effective than its lingering effects in the long-term. Consider following example:

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his
true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up
off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

You see that Vitiate projected extremely powerful illusions into the mind of the target (i.e. Lord Scourge) while brushing it. The ordeal lasted not even a second and it was enough to bring Lord Scourge to his knees. If Vitiate had persisted, he would have broken Lord Scourge (or caused Lord Scourge to descend to madness) but this was not his intent here.

The aforementioned example makes one thing clear that Vitiate's telepathic powers are really intense. Vitiate have history of literally destroying the minds of some opponents:

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Now, once a targeted (individual) is under control, there wouldn't be a need for Vitiate to project powerful illusions into the mind of the target again and again to ensure his control. Additional events would divert Vitiate's attention at times and such gaps could be exploited. Jaina Solo took advantage of similar gaps while she was under the spell of UnuThul.

Creepiness confirmed.

2/3

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Indeed, the Outlander is more powerful than what Valkorion could control, so color me skeptical that novel Vitiate could do anything to a guy who resisted UnuThul. 😆

Raw power makes little difference in the aspect of resisting telepathic influence of some of the greatest telepaths; relevant techniques/strategies are more important in this regard. The Outlander (assuming that he is Hero of Tython) would have learned from his earlier experiences.

It might be possible to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence by completely shielding the mind [beforehand] in order to prevent Vitiate from projecting anything into it while brushing it. And if the pressure (of the brushing effort) becomes unbearable in spite of shielding effort, then Revan's strategy (of knocking the attacker in split-second moment) may work but everybody could not replicate Revan's strategy.

The Outlander [most likely] knows how to shield his mind from a telepathic assault and would have done so while in the company of Vitiate ever since he had been free from Vitiate's spell (thanks in part to the Force ghost of Jedi Master Orgus Din). The Outlander became more powerful in the sense that he acquired new abilities to counter new kinds of threats.

---

The truthfulness of my explanation becomes apparent from the case of Lord Nyax vs. a Jedi Strike Team led by Luke Skywalker. During the initial phase of this confrontation, Lord Nyax brushed Luke Skywalker's mind and projected powerful illusions into it. Skywalker nearly succumbed to Lord Nyax's spell and telepathically encouraged even Mara Jade to join him but she managed to convince him otherwise.

"I don't know if you can understand me," Luke said. "But whatever you're doing, whatever your plans are, I have to stop you."

Lord Nyax's smile grew broader. It seemed to recognize Luke's intent, even if it could not grasp his words.

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty.

He saw his son, composed of Luke and Mara and years to come. Around the edges of Lord Nyax's command he felt the Force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed.

He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

As the confrontation progressed further, Lord Nyax attempt to (telepathically) influence Luke again but the Jedi Master was ready for it this time but his strategy was to reach out to his allies for assistance and formulate a wall of resistance through battle-meld and they obliged:

Luke felt Nyax's astonishment, his outrage at having been wounded, however trivially. Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the time's he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.

Luke reached for Mara again and found her similarly armored, but with logic, not emotion. Running through her mind was a cold calculation of allies and opponents, actions and consequences. Uppermost in it was a realization that Nyax could rule any individual, and out of individuals whole galaxies were made.

But deep beneath the analysis was a stream of emotion, an awareness of their son Ben, of what he would be if Nyax could find him and shape him.

Luke came up on shaky legs, felt Mara doing the same. And though Nyax was not letting up on the pain-energy, it affected Luke less now. He could feel Tahiri's part in that, the way she opened herself to the pain, was not daunted by it, was not shut down by it.

They faced Nyax as a single creature. The part of them that was Mara rejected the false truths Nyax tried to impose upon them. The part of them that was Luke rejected the false hatreds, the lying enmities. The part that was Tahiri made the pain part of what they were, a fuel for their strength.

Nyax looked between them, and a flicker of distress, a childlike expression of fear, crossed his features.

Then all four of them felt the wall break. Whatever was beyond it roared forth to sweep them away.

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

---

Whether Jacen Solo (Darth Caedus) have a chance at resisting Vitiate'e telepathic domination during a confrontation, depends upon a number of factors including experience and knowledge of the enemy. If Jacen is not aware of Vitiate's combat-oriented strategies then element of surprise may work against him. And defenses against telepathic powers are not infallible either. During a conversation between UnuThul and some Jedi (including Luke Skywalker), the former nearly overwhelmed Luke with his telepathic abilities but the Jedi Master managed to resist by bolstering his own defenses and with support of other Jedi.

Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.

Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

From Dark Nest: The Joiner King

Luke had experience with Palpatine and Lord Nyax beforehand he still needed support of his allies to shrug off telepathic influence of UnuThul during the aforementioned interaction. Later on, Luke would devise a strategy to counter UnuThul's telepathic assaults; projecting thoughts of his shared history with Rayner Thul into the mind of UnuThul whenever the two would connect. This strategy worked against UnuThul.

3/3

Now, it is time to clarify how good UnuThul actually is in the use of Telepathy. The aforementioned revelation makes it clear that UnuThul's Telepathy (while potent) was unrefined. Moreover, UnuThul was able to influence some Jedi with his calls but not all Jedi in the galaxy. And Jacen was among the Jedi who were not able to resist the call.

You cite the example of Jacen being successful at resisting UnuThul's influence in the long-term! Good for him. However, did the two ever came face-to-face and UnuThul attempted to break him at that moment, only to fail? Here:

As the voice spoke, an immense murky presence rose inside Jacen's mind, overwhelming his defenses so quickly he had no chance to shut it out. In the midst of the presence, he saw Jaina and the others, their faces filled with surprise and revulsion and pity. They were all in their flight suits, haggard and travel-worn, but healthy enough and unafraid.

They serve the Colony, Jacen, the voice said. Will you join them?

Will you help your sister?

Jacen did not answer, even in his thoughts. A day ago, he had felt Jaina growing small and cold in the Force, the way she always did before a battle. But there had been no indication afterward of anything alarming, not even the usual weary sorrow that always came of taking lives. He reached out to her, probing to see if there was anything amiss.

She responded with a welcoming warmth that let him know she was looking forward to seeing him.

But there was more, just a hint of the murky presence that had pushed its way into Jacen's mind-not hostile or ominous or threatening, just there. The guide drew Jacen's attention back to it by pressing the helmet and flight suit into his hands. "Buu buur urub ruuruur."

Jacen pushed the equipment back into the guide's hands. "I haven't said I'm going."

"Buu rurr. Ubu ur."

"Perhaps," Jacen allowed. The murky presence had withdrawn from his own mind, once again leaving him solely with his guide. "Once I've found out what happened here."

Later on, UnuThul remarked that Jacen is no longer under his spell. This could be due to distance factor. It is much easier to break and/or possess someone at close proximity then from great distances. As I proved above.

Once again, defenses against telepathy are not infallible. Luke and Jacen, both remained vulnerable to Telepathic influence in some way irrespective of the abilities they acquired with passage of time.

Sorry, you cannot use examples of Revan and Hero of Tython to argue in favor of Luke and Jacen's chances against Vitiate (a more formidable Telepath then UnuThul and even Lord Nyax). It is not that simple.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The second question is irrelevant, seeing as how it's not like Revan and Malak were able to combine their mental resistance or something. Caedus's status above Vader and performance against Luke certainly puts him above post mando wars Revan, who hasn't really done anything to put him anywhere near that level.

And if you wish to demonstrate otherwise, just saying "he's a very powerful Jedi" isn't enough - we've talked about this, you need to do comparative analysis. Get working on it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is this supposed to mean something? lol

It tells us that Revan had surpassed every Jedi in strength earlier. This is a very telling revelation for those who understand. Nothing funny in it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not to nitpick, but this isn't what a logical fallacy is...

But that assumption is wrong.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ah, so he isn't weaker as a spirit than as a living person. Well, thanks for preempting anyone making that argument.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This fight is novel Vitiate, BTW.

Still stronger then the likes of Darth Caedus at this time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is hilarious. You actually think you're some sort of brilliant debater, lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
🤣

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He broke Luke, lol.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Though I would like to highlight another aspect: it is apparent that Vitiate managed to warp the minds of Revan and Malak with barely an effort because the Jedi were on the precipice of the Dark Side at this point. However, let us assume a more fair scenario. Suppose that the Jedi are not on the precipice of the Dark Side! Then what? If just a fraction of Vitiate's loathsome power was sufficient to warp their minds in the original scenario, Vitiate should still have lot of room to break the same Jedi in the more fair scenario.

Maybe, but pre-KotOR Revan and Malak =/= Darth Caedus or Vader, so it tells us nothing of his abilities to dominate either combatant here.

They didn't shrug off Vitiate's influence entirely through sheer force of will; they were partially successful towards this end. Moreover, they found the strength to do it 'after' experiencing Vitiate's telepathic powers at some point. Therefore, this is a circumstantial development. Vitiate's influence over Revan, in particular, ended when the Jedi erased his mind.

It is possible that Vitiate's initial domination is infinitely more effective than its lingering effects in the long-term. Consider following example:

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his
true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up
off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

You see that Vitiate projected extremely powerful illusions into the mind of the target (i.e. Lord Scourge) while brushing it. The ordeal lasted not even a second and it was enough to bring Lord Scourge to his knees. If Vitiate had persisted, he would have broken Lord Scourge (or caused Lord Scourge to descend to madness) but this was not his intent here.

The aforementioned example makes one thing clear that Vitiate's telepathic powers are really intense. Vitiate have history of literally destroying the minds of some opponents:

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Now, once a targeted (individual) is under control, there wouldn't be a need for Vitiate to project powerful illusions into the mind of the target again and again to ensure his control. Additional events would divert Vitiate's attention at times and such gaps could be exploited. Jaina Solo took advantage of similar gaps while she was under the spell of UnuThul. [/B]

None of this suggests that Vitiate's telepathy is some sort of special move (TM) that only people who's faced him before could possibly counter. It's obvious that it's extremely potent, but that's it - it's just really strong telepathy, not a special kind of it. There's no reason to think that a particularly powerful/strong willed individual couldn't resist him outright. This is the case with pretty much everything in Star Wars - a sufficient command of the Force and a strong will serve as a general defense against almost anything, seeing as how Bane can resist Zannah's sorcery (which is a far clearer candidate for being a fundamentally different kind of telepathy than Vitiate's), and Palpatine can retain his identity after death, through sheer willpower.

Caedus, in particular, has resisted the efforts of UnuThul, who has quite frankly dominated a lot more powerful Jedi than Vitiate has. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate Vitiate's ability to do anything to either combatant, and dominating pre-KotoR Revan and Malak isn't it.

@Ellimist

Read my entire response first before responding to it. My responses (marked as 1 - 3) contain all the answers you are looking for. Read all of it properly, think clearly, and then respond.

Member AncientPower broke the continuation unfortunately.

This next exchange goes into some interesting detail about how Jedi can resist telepathic attacks, but actually says nothing of relevance to this discussion. Yes, resisting telepathy requires specific mental strategies, but guess what - every exertion of the Force requires a specific mental strategy, from telekinesis to flow walking to shatterpoint. There are sources that also go into some more detail as to how characters learn how to use these other abilities; they often have to visualize specific items or go through particular motions. Big deal. You're trying to equate the fact that it's not just flexing a muscle to thinking that nobody can resist Vitiate without having seen his specific flavor before, regardless of their respective power levels, which is absurd. By that logic, Dooku should've just mind controlled Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Whether Jacen Solo (Darth Caedus) have a chance at resisting Vitiate'e telepathic domination during a confrontation, depends upon a number of factors including experience and knowledge of the enemy. If Jacen is not aware of Vitiate's combat-oriented strategies then element of surprise may work against him.

Luke doesn't need any help to resist Nyax. He's told to do something he doesn't want to do, and this realization brings him out of it. He uses the strategy of thinking about his happy times with Mara - Caedus can probably come up with some other mental imagery. All you've demonstrated is that he initially struggles to do so. Yoda also initially struggles to stop Sidious's lightning, and Galen Marek initially struggles to TK a star destroyer - it doesn't change the fact that they can ultimately do it.

BTW, I don't know why you're equating the telepathic ability of Nyax with that of Vitiate. Because the degree does matter - Bane doesn't need to even try to resist Kaan's telepathy, for example.

Nyax in particular is one of the most powerful characters in the Star Wars mythos, and there's no reason to think that Vitiate would be as capable against Caedus.

...of course, if he were, that would be bad for your case, because he would fail.

And defenses against telepathic powers are not infallible either. During a conversation between UnuThul and some Jedi (including Luke Skywalker), the former nearly overwhelmed Luke with his telepathic abilities but the Jedi Master managed to resist by bolstering his own defenses and with support of other Jedi.

It's not made clear that Luke could not have overcome UnuThul's power on his own, and once again, why are you trying to equate, with absolutely no justification, Vitiate's telepathic abilities with others'? UnuThul can draw upon the power of an entire colony of what was probably billions of Killiks. The two characters aren't remotely comparable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again, defenses against telepathy are not infallible.

So what? UnuThul =/= Vitiate. Stop equating the two, for f*ck's sake.

Luke and Jacen, both remained vulnerable to Telepathic influence in some way irrespective of the abilities they acquired with passage of time.

Legend-tier logic; the fact that they're still vulnerable to a sufficiently powerful telepath apparently means that telepathic resistance is irrespective of their willpower or their mastery of the Force.

By that logic, anyone who had encountered Vitiate's telepathy once and could come up with a defensive strategy could have pulled off Revan's 300 year resistance thing.

But wait, doesn't this whole line of reasoning sort of kill all of your Vitiate and Dread Master wank? After all, apparently anyone can break any arbitrarily powerful opponent so long as they haven't encountered their telepathy before, so why should we be so impressed with Vitiate's ability to do this? GG

Sorry, you cannot use examples of Revan and Hero of Tython to argue in favor of Luke and Jacen's chances against Vitiate (a more formidable Telepath then UnuThul and even Lord Nyax). It is not that simple.

I love how you just sneak in the notion that Vitiate > UnuThul and Nyax without bothering to justify it.

And yes, I can compare Luke's TP resistance with Revan and the Hero's, because Luke is orders of magnitude more powerful than both. It would be like Kaan trying to TP Bane, but even less effective.

Yes.

It tells us that Revan had surpassed every Jedi in strength earlier. This is a very telling revelation for those who understand. Nothing funny in it.

Since you haven't bothered to quantify these Jedi that had come earlier, and how they compare with Caedus or Vader, no, it actually doesn't mean anything. But everyone knows that you're criminally incapable of producing substantive analysis of all of the source material you've wasted your life memorizing, so it's not too surprising.

Ok

Still stronger then the likes of Darth Caedus at this time.

Show me what novel Vitiate has done unaided by a dark side nexus. Impress me.

Get busy addressing my comprehensive response above, if you can.

Your "comprehensive response" is actually marginally more substantive than what you normally come up with, but still manages to say pretty much nothing of importance. It did give me some quotes to throw around if I get into a debate about UnuThul or Nyax though.

If Vitiate is manipulating someone, he would be nice to him. Just like Palpatine was nice to Anakin Skywalker. Nothing funny here.

Why would he need to manipulate someone if he could just dominate them outright?

Oh, right, because the Outlander has met Valkorion before. You know, you just shot your entire wankery of him in the foot by arguing that you can't resist a telepath without having a special strategy, and then detailing how pretty much everyone who's met Vitiate before, or even just been given a brief pep talk by Revan, can resist him. Suddenly Vitiate's ability isn't unique or interesting at all.

Thankfully for you, you're wrong. Raw power/will does matter, and there's typically a threshold for how powerful someone can get before a character can't control them anymore. The Outlander is beyond that threshold, so Caedus and Vader both certainly are, and both have dealt with telepathy before.

Right.

Nice job not responding, lol. I'll take that as a concession.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Maybe, but pre-KotOR Revan and Malak =/= Darth Caedus or Vader, so it tells us nothing of his abilities to dominate either combatant here.

Ever wondered why UnuThul was able to lure some Jedi with his call, but not every Jedi out there? Every Jedi felt/experienced his call but some managed to resist it. This is the point.

Neither Darth Caedus and not Darth Vader have infallible defenses against Telepathy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
None of this suggests that Vitiate's telepathy is some sort of special move (TM) that only people who's faced him before could possibly counter. It's obvious that it's extremely potent, but that's it - it's just really strong telepathy, not a special kind of it. There's no reason to think that a particularly powerful/strong willed individual couldn't resist him outright. This is the case with pretty much everything in Star Wars - a sufficient command of the Force and a strong will serve as a general defense against almost anything, seeing as how Bane can resist Zannah's sorcery (which is a far clearer candidate for being a fundamentally different kind of telepathy than Vitiate's), and Palpatine can retain his identity after death, through sheer willpower.

It takes more then sheer willpower to successfully resist Telepathy of both Vitiate and Lord Nyax. The opponent needs to strengthen his mental defenses beforehand to stand a chance at resisting such Telepaths. And if the opponent have never met them before, good luck.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Caedus, in particular, has resisted the efforts of UnuThul, who has quite frankly dominated a lot more powerful Jedi than Vitiate has. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate Vitiate's ability to do anything to either combatant, and dominating pre-KotoR Revan and Malak isn't it.

Vitiate managed to break virtually any opponent whom he wanted to, in single combat! Any opponent who had not experienced Vitiate's Telepathy earlier. Point is that Jedi (and/or Sith) are not expected to come across a Telepath on par with Vitiate very often, therefore, they are not necessarily prepared for Telepathy of such caliber beforehand and the element of surprise works against them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This next exchange goes into some interesting detail about how Jedi can resist telepathic attacks, but actually says nothing of relevance to this discussion. Yes, resisting telepathy requires specific mental strategies, but guess what - every exertion of the Force requires a specific mental strategy, from telekinesis to flow walking to shatterpoint. There are sources that also go into some more detail as to how characters learn how to use these other abilities; they often have to visualize specific items or go through particular motions. Big deal. You're trying to equate the fact that it's not just flexing a muscle to thinking that nobody can resist Vitiate without having seen his specific flavor before, regardless of their respective power levels, which is absurd. By that logic, Dooku should've just mind controlled Yoda.

Since when is Count Dooku an accomplished Telepath or among the greatest?

Lord Nyax and Vitiate have similar Telepathic abilities. I have explained this earlier.

When Luke Skywalker fought Lord Nyax, he nearly succumbed to the latter's Telepathic expressions on two different occasions. If Luke didn't had allies there, he would have succumbed to Lord Nyax. In each case, Luke's allies enabled him to break free from Lord Nyax's spell.

In the first case:

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty.

He saw his son, composed of Luke and Mara and years to come. Around the edges of Lord Nyax's command he felt the Force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed.

He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

- Luke had almost succumbed here but the sight of his wife invoked memories in him and enabled him to shrug off Lord Nyax's Telepathy.

Observation: If Luke's wife had not been there, then what? Luke would have fallen.

In the second case:

Luke felt Nyax's astonishment, his outrage at having been wounded, however trivially. Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the time's he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.

Luke reached for Mara again and found her similarly armored, but with logic, not emotion. Running through her mind was a cold calculation of allies and opponents, actions and consequences. Uppermost in it was a realization that Nyax could rule any individual, and out of individuals whole galaxies were made.

But deep beneath the analysis was a stream of emotion, an awareness of their son Ben, of what he would be if Nyax could find him and shape him.

Luke came up on shaky legs, felt Mara doing the same. And though Nyax was not letting up on the pain-energy, it affected Luke less now. He could feel Tahiri's part in that, the way she opened herself to the pain, was not daunted by it, was not shut down by it.

They faced Nyax as a single creature. The part of them that was Mara rejected the false truths Nyax tried to impose upon them. The part of them that was Luke rejected the false hatreds, the lying enmities. The part that was Tahiri made the pain part of what they were, a fuel for their strength.

Nyax looked between them, and a flicker of distress, a childlike expression of fear, crossed his features.

Then all four of them felt the wall break. Whatever was beyond it roared forth to sweep them away.

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

- Luke was prepared for Telepathy beforehand and managed to further strengthen his defenses by combining them with those of Mara Jade and Tahiri Veila - The 3 Jedi managed to shrug off Lord Nyax's second Telepathic assault through their combined might.

Observation: If Luke was alone here, he might have fallen.

Now, Vitiate could be more intense at projecting illusions into the mind of a target then Lord Nyax (refer to experience of Lord Scourge here). Therefore, Luke would find it even harder to resist Vitiate's Telepathy in the place of Lord Nyax.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke doesn't need any help to resist Nyax. He's told to do something he doesn't want to do, and this realization brings him out of it. He uses the strategy of thinking about his happy times with Mara

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- Caedus can probably come up with some other mental imagery. All you've demonstrated is that he initially struggles to do so. Yoda also initially struggles to stop Sidious's lightning, and Galen Marek initially struggles to TK a star destroyer - it doesn't change the fact that they can ultimately do it.

I don't think that Darth Caedus have superior defenses then Luke Skywalker against Telepathy. He is just as fallible (refer to his face-to-face meeting with UnuThul).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
BTW, I don't know why you're equating the telepathic ability of Nyax with that of Vitiate. Because the degree does matter - Bane doesn't need to even try to resist Kaan's telepathy, for example.

Nyax in particular is one of the most powerful characters in the Star Wars mythos, and there's no reason to think that Vitiate would be as capable against Caedus.

...of course, if he were, that would be bad for your case, because he would fail.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not made clear that Luke could not have overcome UnuThul's power on his own, and once again, why are you trying to equate, with absolutely no justification, Vitiate's telepathic abilities with others'? UnuThul can draw upon the power of an entire colony of what was probably billions of Killiks. The two characters aren't remotely comparable.

UnuThul would also have overwhelmed Luke's defenses if the other Jedi had not added to it.

Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

From Dark Nest: The Joiner King

What part of that you didn't get?

UnuThul's Telepathy is unrefined irrespective of the raw power at his disposal. And UnuThul is stated to be just "incredibly powerful."