Darth Caedus and Darth Vader vs. novel Vitiate and Arcann

2/2

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You keep vacillating between dismissing the importance of raw power and bragging about how "Revan was already the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" when Vitiate dominated him. Regardless, you have to provide some sort of analysis as to why defeating a Force-based attack doesn't correlate to your strength in the Force when every other Force defense does, and why Valkorion explicitly says that the Outlander is "too powerful" for him to dominate.

I haven't cited the example of Vitiate managing to warp the minds of Revan and Malak in that sense. I cited this example in the context of both being battle-hardened and strong-willed individuals at the time. Revan being the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at this point is a trump card that I utilize against claims that raw power makes much difference in this regard (just like yours). Moreover, being more powerful is not just about raw power.

---

Vitiate cannot be trusted! The crux of KoTFE story arc.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your ability to grasp basic logic is honestly one of the worst out of any human being who has graduated high school that I've ever met. This statement is not a claim that fulfills your burden of proof, nor does it counter anything that I said. It's literally meaningless. And unfortunately, no matter how many hours of your life you waste on this mission of yours, it seems like your debating skills aren't going to improve, nor will you get any smarter.

What was that original contention of mine? Oh, right, it was pointing out that trying to prove Vitiate's superior TP by arguing that he scares Scourge more than Nyax scares Luke is probably one of the worst arguments conceived in the history of our species. Nyax really, really f*cking obviously isn't trying to scare Luke, he's trying to give Luke the desire to join and listen to him. They're different strategies, for f*ck's sake.

My point was intended to address this part of your statement:

"the magnitude of the specific degree of TP Vitiate uses on Scourge can't be more effective because it doesn't actually dominate him so the method clearly doesn't work, etc.)" (Ellimist)

- WTF you were trying to convey with this statement? You were jumping to premature conclusions (which is a norm in your case). Vitiate gave Lord Scourge a glimpse of his true-self in a split-second moment as a warning that his betrayal will not go unpunished. Vitiate was not interested in breaking Lord Scourge and neither does this imply that this tactic was not useful for breaking a target.

You should make more effort in improving your arguments instead of insulting me.

Now coming towards Lord Nyax not trying to scare Luke Skywalker part:

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

Taken from Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

The red part represents scary images, you idiot. Lord Nyax's strategy is same as that of Vitiate but his intent was to motivate Luke to join him and embrace the madness.

The above is similar to what Vitiate did to Lord Scourge but Vitiate was not interested in reducing Lord Scourge to his pwn and therefore withdrew his assault in split-second moment. Vitiate's intent was to warn Lord Scourge of serious consequences for his betrayal. There are however examples of Vitiate causing some Jedi to descend to madness and even destroying there minds. The strategy might be same but the intent behind it is important and determines the outcome.

As for giving someone the desire to join him, Vitiate is a step above this as apparent from:

"He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed." (Revan)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love how you just assert that raw power has nothing to do with TP defense, and then brag about how powerful Revan and Malak were. I'd accuse anyone else of dishonesty, but honestly, I think you're just stupid.

And no, I'm not a regular drinker, although I'm still significantly smarter than you when I do.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I find it astounding that you talk with such a smug and condescending demeanor that suggests you actually think you're brilliant or something. Hasn't real life ever hit you with a cold bucket of water on your delusions? Hasn't school, or work, or your likely failure to achieve any impressive intellectual milestones? You're a laughing stock of pretty much everyone on these forums, even those who wank TOR. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't also an insufferable *sshole, but thanks for being one, because now I feel more morally justified in mocking you.

The magnitude of stupidity and ignorance you have demonstrated in this debate is astounding and you need to look yourself in the mirror.

Without a nexus, I don't see Vitiate stomping anybody here. If he's up against Caedus and Vader fights Arcann, then team one wins. If Vitiate attacks Vader while Arcann fights Caedus, team 2 has a chance.

Vader can't handle Vitiates serious lightning any better than Revan did. In fact, he'd do worse.

Galen's lightning feats are actually superior to Vitiate's, lmao.

No, they aren't.

Play your hand then.

Every Telepath can give you the feeling/desire to join him; this is not a valid argument. UnuThul's Telepathy is explicitly stated to be unrefined (I take this as an indication UnuThul is not a master of Telepathy). Vitiate's Telepathy is not unrefined.

Lord Nyax and Vitiate can brush the mind of a target and project horrifying images into it in an attempt to overwhelm the senses of a target until he is broke (I have already provided evidence to verify this assertion and also made a comparison to make it apparent who is more intense in this regard). UnuThul have not demonstrated this talent; UnuThul intrudes into the mind of a target and then projects commands into it! Nothing unique.

What the hell are you talking about? Nyax didn't horrify Luke - he tried to give him the desire to join, and you took this to mean that his telepathy is analogous to Vitiate's. UnuThul also gave people the desire to join - .ie his is similar to Vitiate's by the same logic that you claim Nyax's is. UnuThul's telepathy being unrefined hardly changes anything - Nyax's is too.

If you think UnuThul's telepathy translates to Vitiate's, Nyax's must too, and so Caedus can resist Vitiate for the same reason Revan, Scourge, Meetra and the Hero can. 👆

Here:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to
carry on their cause.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Lord Scourge's premonitions gave him mixed-signals and puzzled him. In the end, he was not convinced of victory and decided to betray Meetra Surik at the last moment.

This is thoroughly irrelevant to what you were responding to - you were using Scourge's original dream of Vitiate breaking his mind as proof that Vitiate could TP him outright, when it actually just means that he could TP him after he he had already beaten him. It doesn't mean he could overwhelm his mind outright. You still have not demonstrated any examples of an unamped Vitiate dominating a mind comparable to Caedus's or Vader's. At this point, your entire argument hinges on claiming that because a weaker and younger Jacen couldn't outright resist UnuThul, he obviously couldn't resist novel Vitiate, by circularly arguing that Vitiate's TP > UnuThul's because he's had more opportunities to dominate non-Force sensitive populations, and some Jedi clearly far weaker than Jacen. In other words, you have absolutely nothing.

Lying on the feet injured, doesn't implies that your powers have diminished:

Funny; in another thread you tried to dismiss Taalon's TK'ing of Luke by pointing to injuries Luke had sustained. Now I assume you concede your prior position.

Anyway, you're once again contradicting yourself; your entire case here is predicated on assuming that your ability to resist Force telepathy has nothing to do with your raw power (despite Luke stating in the RotJ novelization that anything generated by the Force can be resisted by the Force). If that's the case, then that Scourge hadn't lost raw power by getting injured wouldn't matter; being injured and lying on the ground would make it much harder to focus, and that is what matters, according to you.

And even if that weren't true, you'd still have no argument; you still haven't provided any actual reasoning as to why you think Vitiate can break their telepathic defenses beyond lazily trying to scale his telepathy with UnuThul's. UnuThul was never in a situation where he had to dominate planets [with prep, a nexus, and 3 centuries of power growth], but he has dominated a lot more impressive Jedi/Sith than Scourge and pre-KotOR Revan. You still have nothing.

Wrong! I haven't given you a concession in this regard (and I won't) because your argument is flawed. It is not necessary that anybody - who have experienced Vitiate's Telepathy - can resist it with success should he be subjected to it again. Master Surro managed to resist Vitiate's Telepathy on Ziost through her own willpower at some point (demonstrated in a cut-scene) but her success was temporary; Vitiate repossessed her afterwards, damaging her mind. The protagonist helped Surro breaking free from Vitiate's Telepathic hold afterwards but the entire ordeal left her in catatonic state.

Hero of Tython and Revan are exceptions, not the norm.

They're exceptions because they're exceptionally gifted in the Force, just like Caedus and Vader are. You, once again, have done nothing to suggest that Vitiate can break Force users of their caliber.

You need to establish first that how Palpatine's Telepathy is similar to that of Vitiate and Lord Nyax. Secondly, Darth Vader was not able to resist Palpatine's Telepathy. Therefore, you cannot argue his chances against Vitiate in this regard.

You're missing the point - you claim that Vitiate's telepathy can't be resisted by Vader because he hasn't experienced anything like it before, but he has. That he couldn't the first time against Palpatine means nothing.

Palpatine's telepathy is dissimilar from Vitiate's, while incredibly dissimilar telepathy from Nyax and UnuThul are? Seriously?

Individually, no! But sheer numbers are there and possessing such odds is far from easy. Luke Skywalker himself remarked that it is not easy to influence a Jedi Master.

"not easy" is a meaningless quantifier, as I've explained before and you'll probably never understand. OT Palpatine could dominate a planet of billions; does this mean he could dominate Vitiate?

Now, I want you to actually justify your assertion that telepathic defense has nothing to do with raw power, when it a) just happens to be that the ones with the best TP defense feats are really powerful Force users and b) every single other Force defense correlates to raw power. And if you can somehow substantiate this, I want you to present a cogent case for why Vitiate can dominate the team here, when he's never dominated anyone beyond a conflicted pre-KotOR Revan. Please, please answer this.

Again, "too powerful" is an ambiguous term! It could imply that the Outlander's mental defenses are more formidable. However, there is more to this then meets the eye. Vitiate managed to bind himself to the Outlander forcefully, without the consent of the latter (see chapter 1). Vitiate was also able to project powerful visions into the mind of the Outlander while the latter was being kept in carbonite (see chapter 2). The above happens irrespective of the class. Therefore, your argument is subjective and weak here.

No, because he couldn't dominate him for the purposes of winning a confrontation.

No, that email was faked by someone.

Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...-drew-fake.html

Those prep and nexus jabs are misleading and disingenuous.

My fanatical Vitiate masturbation? laughing out loud

You need to look yourself in the mirror, my friend.

I love how you just vaguely call prep and nexus jabs "misleading and disingenuous" without explaining how a nexus that explicitly strengthens his power in the dark side...wouldn't strengthen his ability to use the dark side.

I still see no actual arguments for you to justify your notion that Vitiate can dominate Vader and Caedus's minds. He's never dominated anyone of their caliber,

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD ]

🙄

I haven't cited the example of Vitiate managing to warp the minds of Revan and Malak in that sense. I cited this example in the context of both being battle-hardened and strong-willed individuals at the time. Revan being the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at this point is a trump card that I utilize against claims that raw power makes much difference in this regard (just like yours). Moreover, being more powerful is not just about raw power.

Seriously? You think dominating Revan translates to dominating Caedus because Revan is "battle hardened" and "strong willed"? When Caedus was f*cking tortured by the Yuuzhan Vong?

Revan at that point had beaten a bunch of Mandos. Caedus had f*cking dealt with a Force-immune extra-galactic invasion force when he was a teenager. Oh, and he fooled Luke Skywalker multiple times with his illusions. The notion that he can be compared to pre-KOTOR Revan and Malak is ridiculous.

Vitiate cannot be trusted! The crux of KoTFE story arc.

Except he clearly can here, because otherwise he'd have just mind controlled him. 👆

My point was intended to address this part of your statement:

"the magnitude of the specific degree of TP Vitiate uses on Scourge can't be more effective because it doesn't actually dominate him so the method clearly doesn't work, etc.)" (Ellimist)

- WTF you were trying to convey with this statement? You were jumping to premature conclusions (which is a norm in your case). Vitiate gave Lord Scourge a glimpse of his true-self in a split-second moment as a warning that his betrayal will not go unpunished. Vitiate was not interested in breaking Lord Scourge and neither does this imply that this tactic was not useful for breaking a target.

*facepalm* You were making the argument that how horrific a telepathic attack is portrayed establishes how effective it is. This "split-second moment" is still more horrific than UnuThul's, so by your logic it ALONE should have been enough. The fact that Vitiate was holding back is irrelevant - your argument is predicated on taking the description of the event as an indicator of its power unto itself, so Vitiate's holding-back TP should still be > UnuThul's by your metric, and his full-power one should just be more effective. But this is clearly wrong, so your metric is bullshit.

BTW, it also contradicts your previous claim that Nyax's TP was different from Vitiate's because it tries to give people the desire and eagerness to join, .ie you can't belittle it for not being horrific because it isn't trying to be.

That's like saying Palpatine is a sh*tty manipulator in the PT compared to a mafia crime lord because you don't see him intimidating the Jedi. He wasn't trying to, he was using another strategy. Duh.

You should make more effort in improving your arguments instead of insulting me.

You literally don't understand elementary logical statements. Your argument was "if more horrific then more effective". This if-then fails given your very example, that Scourge wasn't broken by it. That Vitiate was holding back has nothing to do with the failure of your conditional.

Now coming towards Lord Nyax not trying to scare Luke Skywalker part:

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

Taken from Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

The red part represents scary images, you idiot. Lord Nyax's strategy is same as that of Vitiate but his intent was to motivate Luke to join him and embrace the madness.

😐 Dude, the passage describes Luke LONGING to join in on the slaughter, not being horrified by it. Jesus f*cking Christ.

The above is similar to what Vitiate did to Lord Scourge but Vitiate was not interested in reducing Lord Scourge to his pwn and therefore withdrew his assault in split-second moment. Vitiate's intent was to warn Lord Scourge of serious consequences for his betrayal. There are however examples of Vitiate causing some Jedi to descend to madness and even destroying there minds. The strategy might be same but the intent behind it is important and determines the outcome.

No, the strategy isn't the same. Vitiate's strategy is breaking people; Nyax's is tempting people. You've not established any link between the two.

As for giving someone the desire to join him, Vitiate is a step above this as apparent from:

"He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed." (Revan)

What? He's better at it because he can dominate pre-KotOR Revan? What feats does pre-KotOR Revan have again?

Once again, we get back to ground zero; you can't establish that Vitiate can overpower Caedus or Vader when his more powerful incarnation can't overpower the Outlander. You just keep asserting this over and over again.

See above

No, I don't need to see above. Above doesn't provide any actual justifications for your assertion that raw power doesn't correlate to telepathic defense when every other Force ability does.

The magnitude of stupidity and ignorance you have demonstrated in this debate is astounding and you need to look yourself in the mirror.

Nah, there's a reason why nobody here takes you seriously (except for Neph, and nobody takes him seriously either). 👆

Ellimist has a lot of damn energy...

A lot of free time, at least.

At least these back-and-forths are somewhat entertaining...

Classic.

Team 1
Arcann can't compete with either

Team 1 wins, yeah.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Vader solos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate's telepathy is more creepy and intense.

This isn't necessarily a bad fight per se, but it's solidly in team 1's favor.

Caedus isn’t one tat likes playing around when he fights most of the time. I’d hes in character then he should blitz vitiate while Vader rag dolls arcann.