Originally posted by FreshestSlice
SKILLZ has left SWTOR for Marvel. And while I can't deny that's the most intelligent thing to do, someone must keep the Brigade away from Neph and LeGenD, and that someone is me.
Your are traitor among the ranks of SWTOR brigade and you will be cast out soon. We don't need you.
Originally posted by Syndicate
http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914870-7873024960-38920.jpgNot saying it's as impressive as Revan's own feat just wanted to point out that Vader has accomplished similar feats.
Anyway, will respond to Beni and Sky now.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So whether or not he replies, I'm going to deal with Darth Ant's Revan arguments, because they sort of encapsulate a lot of the issues with TOR wank.
Essentially, Ant never disputes the fact that Vader and Starkiller's feats in The Force Unleashed I and II are massively beyond anything Revan's ever done.
I'd also like to reference Revan telepathically dominating an entire fleet of warships, with the aid of the nexus of Malachor V, far before his prime.
1. [b]He doesn't understand the meaning of statistical uncertainty. Specifically, he argues that Vader has struggled against "featless" Jedi, so he must be weak because those Jedi are. Why are those Jedi weak? Because they have no feats, Ant says. Of course, a more astute observer might notice that someone not having feats signals a lack of knowledge over their abilities, not a knowledge of their weakness! So why, exactly, would we try to use the unknowns as the benchmarks for the more known quantity (Vader), rather than the reverse? We wouldn't, of course. These featless Jedi doing well against Vader is a mark in their favor, not the reverse![/[/b]Of course, in the absence of feats, we do typically assume that those characters are weaker than ones with good feats simply because of probabilities - we'd assume some value towards the average of their context and surrounding abilities, and this usually reduces to a lower value than their opponents, since most well documented combatants are significantly above average. But this sort of expected-value analysis does not override actually having a good benchmark (Vader + his feats) to use!
Except the Jedi that Darth Vader fought are clearly less powerful than the leader of the Dark Council (i.e. Darth Marr); clearly less powerful than the Grand Master of the Jedi Order (i.e. Satele Shan); clearly less powerful than someone who is "far more powerful than any Jedi has ever imagined" during one of his weakest incarnations (i.e. Revan). It's circular logic. You are basically stating that since Darth Vader is strong, these Jedi must also be strong. That's fine. But then you are also stating that since these Jedi are strong, Darth Vader is strong (you specifically said that "killing seven Jedi" was among his best feats). This is the flaw of your argument. So, if all these Jedi are so powerful that they are capable of challenging Darth Vader to such an extent, it defies logic that then Revan, the most powerful Jedi from the creation of the Jedi Order in 25,783 BBY to his first death on the Foundry in 3642 BBY, would not be powerful enough to perform far better than these Jedi. That's just obvious. You made note yourself that the fact Dooku was the greatest Jedi produced for simply centuries is a key qualifier for being among the greatest of the greats. Stop trying to make excuses for Darth Vader's failures here.
2. [b]He doesn't make any effort to explain the disparities. When confronted with some sources that show X and others which apparently show Y, rather than try to create a unified model to explain both, as we do in other endeavors like the sciences, Ant just picks what happens to be more convenient for him.[/b]
Except that's what you're doing. When one is strictly using the same source (i.e. The Force Unleashed series), and then the other all others including movies and television shows, it's obvious which one holds more weight and should be looked upon as the more reliable. I don't care if you think otherwise - you're wrong.
You could argue that he has the weight of numbers on his side, but you could just as easily point out that The Force Unleashed is more recent material that is actually more integral to the plot of the Saga.
If the events that we read about didn't actually happen because Vader and Starkiller can't actually do that, how did the necessary consequences of those events, like the formation of the Rebellion, happen? No explanation.
And in the original game, Galen Marek can still sacrifice his life to confront Palpatine and Darth Vaderwithout X, Y, and Z happening exactly the way they did. Don't be ridiculous.
There are, of course, several potential explanations. Vader grows more powerful throughout the Dark Times and the OT, and his psychology improves. This alone explains a lot of the alleged power disparities Ant refers to, and he subsequently responds by vaguely referencing near-RotJ times Vader underperforms...with no elaboration, of course.
The Dark Woman? The clone of Darth Maul? Both of these fights happened after his conflicts with Starkiller and place him back to his standing as a powerful, but not unparalleled, power.
However, I was, in particular, referring to the Canon comic series. The OP gave me the impression that this is composite Darth Vader - not strictly Legends or Canon.
3. [b]He muddles suspension of disbelief. Darth Ant's final card, given the clear superiority of Vader's feats and comparable accolades, is to try to argue that The Force Unleashed's powers are over the top, and that the creators intended as much. Well, yes, TFU is over the top, but the question is why. There are two explanations:[/b]a) That Starkiller is an incredibly powerful protagonist whose potential rivals Luke's.
b) That the events in the game/novelization aren't actually "canon", but rather distorted by the writers to appear over-the-top.
Option a) has the advantages of being backed by explicit statements from the creators, not requiring breaking the fourth wall, not requiring breaking the continuity of the mythos, not requiring authorial intervention, and overall making more sense, while option b)...well, it supports Revan's case, so naturally it's what Ant goes with.
Read above.
Finally, in the rare attempt to actually engage with the feats war (given that no argument from accolades or powerscaling was put forward), Ant presents two contentions:1. That Revan can tank an explosion that can "affect all life within one kilometer". Of course, Starkiller's blast is even more potent, being visible from space, and Vader is standing right next to it without being affected. But hey, that's just me...
"Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions."
I am led to believe that, based on the above quote, the fire we see from space is not just what Darth Vader had to deal with, but also a chain reaction in another area as well.
And he was affected by the explosion: "Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before."
Anyway, I'd like to further expand on my point. Revan as of Shadow of Revan's body is held together through his will, similarly to Darth Sion. To truly defeat him, one must then have to unleash an attack that is sufficient enough to overcome his will (or pacify it and thus allow them to embrace death, which is how both he and Darth Sion died, but Darth Vader isn't doing that here). That's how it works. So, Revan first survived a blast of Force energy that threatened to inflict damage upon all life in a one kilometer radius around him. And then note also unlike Darth Vader, the blast was solely contained toward Revan, so he was taking the full and complete blow of that power. Revan endured. The fight continues and soon the Machine Core becomes unstable. The game notes that Revan's "life force" then began being "stripped" away from him by a "violent maelstrom of twisted force essence." Revan endured. Come hours later, Revan then fights the strike team and, due to the intervention of Spirit Revan, the team defeats him and brings him to his knees. Despite the accumulative injuries of all that happened before, including the other battlefield injuries he would have obviously sustained in the two fights, Revan rose again, unfazed and ready to fight. Darth Vader will need to unleash telekinetic powers that overwhelms the mind that resisted the Dread Masters and Vitiate, two of the greatest Sith telepaths ever, for centuries, and was so focused that he resurrected himself from the dead through his own corpse, starting again body functions via power of mind.
Darth Vader has never shown to be able to flesh out that caliber of power.
2. That feats against inanimate objects don't show how "good with combat" people are. Never mind the fact that Starkiller performs many of these feats, like soloing hundreds of stormtroopers with a single push, in the middle of combat.[/b]Let's talk about the latter for a moment. Ant seems to think that feats against inanimate objects don't matter that much, but he completely ignores the analysis of why they do. You see, when we're scaling characters against one another based on their opponents, you have the unknown variable of the strength of said opponents to mess things up. Sometimes you can scale these opponents against one another, but other times some of them are featless, just as Ant shoots himself in the foot with. So what advantage do inanimate feats provide? They provide a [b]common reference point
to compare abilities, and this is where Vader clearly outstrips Revan.
Revan dominates Darth Vader.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Pushing three Jedi off a cliff is a similar feat?Anyway, will respond to Beni and Sky now.
Well, given both Revan and Vader's feat have them casually blasting force users, I guess you could say it is. The scale is probably on a smaller level but you said Vader had never done anything like overcome enemy force users ( or something along those lines ). :6
Originally posted by Syndicate
Well, given both Revan and Vader's feat have them casually blasting force users, I guess you could say it is. The scale is probably on a smaller level but you said Vader had never done anything like overcome enemy force users ( or something along those lines ). :6