Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's not. Darth Vader pushing three unnamed Jedi doesn't compare to Revan doing the same to Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, and the Hero of Tython, and that feat isn't even his best display of domination over the team.
I didn't say it was. You said he's never overcome force users like Revan has. That was blatantly false as that scan proves.
I'm talking about the bottom scan where the Jedi are hurled from the cliff the other Jedi is cut apart and the stormtroopers below are victorious. There's no continuation of the scans in the slide show so I assume that was all there was. If so that sort of hints that there was nothing more to show because Vader had defeated them.
I'll respond in more detail later; I'll just say that if the OP specifies peak characters, it's kind of silly to dismiss higher showings for lower ones. You might have a point if we're talking about one random five page comic book, but we have two video games whose events are corroborated by multiple adaptations across a variety of mediums and authors, and which are incredibly important to the Legends continuity. If we're dealing with "peak" Vader, we should be able to include his best feats.
I think the OP specified "peak" to show it took place in RotJ, not so we could use whatever we want without debate. If the OP specifies that TFU is fair game and to be taken as directly serious as possible, I'll revise my argument, but for now it stands against the most normal Darth Vader, in my opinion.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I directly disputed the claim that Darth Vader and Starkiller's feats don't match up to pushing Vitiate
or dominating the coalition strike forces.
I'd also like to reference Revan telepathically dominating an entire fleet of warships, with the aid of the nexus of Malachor V, far before his prime.
It's circular logic. You are basically stating that since Darth Vader is strong, these Jedi must also be strong.
The Dark Woman?
The clone of Darth Maul?
However, I was, in particular, referring to the Canon comic series. The OP gave me the impression that this is composite Darth Vader - not strictly Legends or Canon.
No. Starkiller's over-the-top Force powers are not necessary for the key plot points of the game to occur. By simply recognizing they are exaggerated and then proceeding to dumb-them-down, as we should since they are explicitly stated to be "amped up," there is no breaking of the fourth wall, there is no breaking of the continuity, etc. And the creators saying this or that about what Starkiller might become in the far future is irrelevant. Darth Vader wasn't fighting someone as powerful as Luke Skywalker in his prime.
Of course you’re breaking the continuity. You’re claiming that when a novel tells me that Starkiller redirects that star destroyer, destroys that cruiser or one-shots those hundreds of Stormtroopers, the author is lying to me, and pulling down the star destroyer is actually some sort of weird allegory for having a spare tractor beam lying around. This interpretation is less parsimonious than the one that he’s just really ****ing powerful, and both fit the description of the series as “over the topâ€.
Simply put, you haven’t produced a good reason for why our solution to the enormous levels of wank in TFU ought be to just dismiss the wank, rather than to explain the wank’s existence as being the product of really powerful characters. The latter doesn’t break the fourth wall, and fits what the creators have actually stated about their expressed intentions. If we want to maintain a legitimate debate, we cannot toss out events that are corroborated in like five different sources because we don’t like them.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions."
I am led to believe that, based on the above quote, the fire we see from space is not just what Darth Vader had to deal with, but also a chain reaction in another area as well.
And he was affected by the explosion: "Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before."
Hmmm, I’d argue this wouldn’t change the magnitude of what Vader had to tank [and it’s so beyond what Revan did that it doesn’t even matter that he’s damaged by it], but I can’t prove that these conventional explosions happen within the perimeter rather than in some distant section, so I’ll concede that point.
Could you provide a more detailed citation of Revan’s own feat? From how you’ve described it, it isn’t nearly as impressive as you’re suggesting. A one-kilometer kill radius is like a small nuclear weapon, but Revan doesn’t literally tank all of the energy; he tanks the extent of the blast that hits the surface area of his body, and some of the shockwave. Interestingly enough, we know that lightsabers have superior penetrative abilities to nuclear weapons from Fatal Alliance, where a blast door described as being able to tank a small nuke is “no match” for a padawan and his lightsaber. So Revan’s feat is basically Satele Shan’s tutanimus, spread out across a larger surface area, but also against far less concentrated energy, so it’s a wash and not beyond Vader’s own capabilities. (Kylo Ren can deflect lightsaber blades)
Likewise, Starkiller disintegrating a 300 meter cruiser would take a f*ckton more energy than what would make a one kilometer kill radius, given the stats on these ships’ durabilities from sourcebooks like Saxton’s ICS’s.
Anyway, I'd like to further expand on my point. Revan as of Shadow of Revan's body is held together through his will, similarly to Darth Sion.
Pointing out Sion was a mistake, since we know from Traya’s statement, confirmed out-of-universe, that he’s nothing compared to the ancient sith. It makes Revan’s feat a little less impressive.
Why does this even matter anyway? If Vader chops his head off, do you seriously think he’ll just regenerate it?
Revan first survived a blast of Force energy that threatened to inflict damage upon all life in a one kilometer radius around him.
LOL, it’s actually only affect life within one kilometer? Lowballing it even more.
Darth Vader has never shown to be able to flesh out that caliber of power.
Quite honestly, these durability feats do provide characters with an advantage, but it isn’t nearly as important as you’re letting on. There’s no reason to think that Revan can magically survive decapitation, so all you’re giving me is that he might take more kindly to being ragdolled, and might endure some flesh wounds better. Vader still fights like PT duelists; clean lightsaber exchanges until somebody disarms the other and can subsequently kill them. It’s not like a Caedus vs. Luke engagement where this kind of damage soak will matter.
Perhaps it would matter in Force combat, but I think Vader will more realistically use telekinesis to create an opening for a saber strike.
I disagree. For example, a novice Sith apprentice during SWTOR, who is vastly inferior to Revan, was capable of destroying an entire city block on Dromund Kaas.
Details?
This outstrips Darth Vader's feats.
Nah. The energy needed to disintegrate a cruiser is obviously far greater.
Are you going to argue she's his superior?
If she had really good feats, I'd consider it. Quite frankly, outside of appeals to incredulity, you haven't provided any sort of rationale or mechanism for why feats against the environment shouldn't matter, as if the telekinesis used to move people is somehow different from that used to move rocks.
And in terms of using the Force against actual opponents, Revan clearly outstrips Darth Vader,
They’re not equivalent opponents though. That’s the problem – you’re not adjusting for that variable. I’m more impressed by Vader going toe to toe with a guy who can catch Palpatine’s lightning and TK star destroyers than Revan ragdolling a strike team whose feats simply don’t fall within an order of magnitude of his.
On the topic of explosions, why has no one brought up the Malachor feat? Vader tanked that dark side explosion that wiped out the Sith Temple/Battle Station and surrounding areas. Considering the explosion was a result of the power of a planet-scorching superweapon being destabilized, this is way more impressive than tanking anything Starkiller could muster. If anything, this one is the most similar to Revan's feat with the Temple of Sacrifice and all.
EDIT: After doing some homework, lol. Revan receiving backlash from losing control of the Temple's energies isn't necessarily the same as him tanking the explosion itself either. I find the fact that he was initially able to channel that kind of energy in the first place much more impressive tbh.