TPM vs TFA

Thing is, there really are only a few people in the middle. Most either strongly disagree or they don't, in regards to TFA. At least in my experience.

Like it's any different from all the other SW movies...

TFA supplemental material expounds upon the situation: TNR underwent a colossal demilitarization effort post-Jakku and are largely impotent.

Can't imagine the situation was remedied with the destruction of its capital, primary governmental machinery, and IIRC the bulk of its fleet.

Colonel, to be fair, you also think SWTOR is really good. That's nauseating.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Narratively, the First Order represents no less a threat to TFA's heroes than Sheev's empire did to ANH's. For all intents and purposes, they're the same overarching Goliath, stylistically and substantively, that the Empire was for ANH.

No one cares that there are minute, legal, logistical differences between them when the story treats them as virtually the same.

😬 Those "minute, legal, logistical differences" are tangibly important to determining how much of a threat the First Order poses, lol.

Um, no? The First Order can raid Jakku and then get owned by Resistance fighters. The Empire can d*ck around with Lando's Cloud City and get away with it. And how else could any villain have been portrayed? A menace that couldn't even raid a defenseless Jakku and maybe plant some spies at Maz's place wouldn't create much tension, would it? Jabba the Hutt could've pulled that off. Its only arsenal that rivals that of the Empire would be Starkiller base - but the fact that it can construct a planet buster doesn't suddenly mean that it rivals Palpatine's Empire, in overall ability, kek. It means they built up a weapon of mass destruction - sort of like any movie about some terrorists getting a nuke does.

Regardless, the question of whether the threat poses as much of an immediate, bodily harm to the heroes has nothing to do with whether it undermines the meaning of the OT. By that logic, even a story about some random dissidents that can raid Jakku and shoot at the heroes makes them equivalent to the Empire and thus negates the OT. It's overarching threat isn't the same, although quite frankly, it should be close for there to be any tension or meaningful plot.

I don't think SWTOR is really good. I like some of its characters and storylines, and I enjoy playing the game, but that doesn't mean I think it's really good.

I enjoy watching TPM, AOTC and all the shit SW has produced so far, whilst knowing they're not very good.

Also, the contribution of the OT is still that:

[LIST]
[*]The Force is back in balance and the dark side isn't shrouding everything.
[*]Trillions (quadrillions?) of people are now free from the Empire, and probably will remain so.
[/LIST]

That there's the short term military threat of the First Order means nothing.

The New Republic might as well not exist. The idea that the First Order is minor is also hilarious. No one cares about a mystical energy field that's there to give space wizards powers.

Except that it accomplished the goal of liberating most of the galaxy, including, presumably, a lot of those the Empire had enslaved. That's a meaningful accomplishment. That it isn't militarily relevant in the immediate future doesn't change that, lel.

And it's basically gone now with all of its fleet and capital. It means literally nothing when the First Order is the only one with power in the galaxy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
😬 Those "minute, legal, logistical differences" are tangibly important to determining how much of a threat the First Order poses, lol.

Um, no? The First Order can raid Jakku and then get owned by Resistance fighters. And how else could any villain have been portrayed? A menace that couldn't even raid a defenseless Jakku and maybe plant some spies at Maz's place wouldn't create much tension, would it? Jabba the Hutt could've pulled that off. Its only arsenal that rivals that of the Empire would be Starkiller base - but the fact that it can construct a planet buster doesn't suddenly mean that it rivals Palpatine's Empire, in overall ability, kek.

Regardless, the question of whether the threat poses as much of an immediate, bodily harm to the heroes has nothing to do with whether it undermines the meaning of the OT. By that logic, even a story about some random dissidents that can raid Jakku and shoot at the heroes makes them equivalent to the Empire and thus negates the OT. It's overarching threat isn't the same, although quite frankly, it should be close for there to be any tension or meaningful plot.

Not at all.

The storyline is contrived to bolster the threat the First Order poses:

Me
TFA supplemental material expounds upon the situation: TNR underwent a colossal demilitarization effort post-Jakku and are largely impotent.

Can't imagine the situation was remedied with the destruction of its capital, primary governmental machinery, and IIRC the bulk of its fleet.

Functionally, the First Order is probably the galaxy's foremost military power by the end of TFA, if not at the beginning, even with the destruction of Starkiller Base.

The fact that its troops were defeated by the Resistance means... what, exactly?

The fact that the First Order isn't as big as the Empire at its height is irrelevant. Neither is 21st century USA compared to the 19th century British Empire. The plot is deliberately contrived to evoke the Empire substantively and stylistically. These clearly aren't some podunk backwater terrorists.

They still haven't physically conquered anything. There are like a million planets that have benefited from the Empire's fall, and quite frankly the First Order probably isn't going to end up conquering them, or if they do, it'll be for a short time.

Yeah guys the New Republic appears to be dead, its literally stated as much in the movie.

Logically speaking I guess they could just reelect new Senators, but it is stated in the movie that the Republic is gone.

EDIT: I also agree with Temp that stylistically the situation is very Rebellion/Empire esque, the Republic really aren't a presence at all.

The Alliance fought to free the galaxy from the grasp of the Empire, the Resistance fights to keep the galaxy free.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They still haven't physically conquered anything. There are like a million planets that have benefited from the Empire's fall, and quite frankly the First Order probably isn't going to end up conquering them, or if they do, it'll be for a short time.

None of that matters until it's demonstrated, depicted, or otherwise experienced. From a cinematic perspective, it's trivia.

👆

Tempest,

So what, exactly, is your argument here? That the First Order poses a big threat isn't a bad thing - it's just having tension like a story ought to.

What I responded to was your claim that the First Order negates the accomplishments of the heroes in the OT. This is factually wrong. The heroes of the OT:
[LIST]
[*]Defeated a threat you admit was far greater than the First Order.
[*]Constructed a New Republic that liberated most of the known galaxy - and the galaxy now accrues its benefits for a few decades, and since the First Order will likely lose pretty soon, into the foreseeable future.
[/LIST]
Otherwise Palpatine would've created his fleet of Death Stars and probably been unbeatable.

These are lasting, tangible benefits.

Your reply is basically that the First Order has thematic similarities to the Empire or some b*llshit - of course it does, it's a Galactic Empire wannabe. That doesn't negate the accomplishment of the OT at all.

If you're shifting your argument to another rendition of "it's unoriginal", I won't argue with you there - it's not the same as your argument that the OT accomplished nothing.

Jesus Christ, the screenplay even lampshades it by directly comparing Starkiller Base with the Death Star.

The Aesop is pretty plain: "lol the Death Star is like soooo last year. #skbftw"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
None of that matters until it's demonstrated, depicted, or otherwise experienced. From a cinematic perspective, it's trivia.

So when James Bond saves the world from a nuclear threat, you don't get any sort of satisfaction unless if the camera pans to all of the people living happily as a result, and emphasizes how everyone can now live their lives out in peace or something? 😬

Because the OT didn't do this except for like a ten minute celebration at the end. Would you have been satisfied if the movie had shown some people happily taking walks in the park and waving to some free wookiees or something?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tempest,

So what, exactly, is your argument here? That the First Order poses a big threat isn't a bad thing - it's just having tension like a story ought to.

What I responded to was your claim that the First Order negates the accomplishments of the heroes in the OT. This is factually wrong. The heroes of the OT:
[LIST]
[*]Defeated a threat you admit was far greater than the First Order.
[*]Constructed a New Republic that liberated most of the known galaxy - and the galaxy now accrues its benefits for a few decades, and since the First Order will likely lose pretty soon, into the foreseeable future.
[/LIST]
Otherwise Palpatine would've created his fleet of Death Stars and probably been unbeatable.

These are lasting, tangible benefits.

Your reply is basically that the First Order has thematic similarities to the Empire or some b*llshit - of course it does, it's a Galactic Empire wannabe. That doesn't negate the accomplishment of the OT at all.

If you're shifting your argument to another rendition of "it's unoriginal", I won't argue with you there - it's not the same as your argument that the OT accomplished nothing.

lol

My position here is pretty straightforward, my son: TFA is unoriginal and undermines the shit that came before it. Perhaps you were too desperate to cross swords with me to dwell on it?

Originally posted by The_Tempest

TFA's plot essentially says Luke failed to re-establish the Jedi, the Empire's defeat is irrelevant because the First Order (which is virtually identical to the Empire on both substantial and superficial fronts) is on the rise, the New Republic is a joke, the Resistance is exactly like the Rebel Alliance, oh and Han and Chewie are doing the same shit they were doing 30 years ago because fvck character development.

^ it's pretty f*cking obvious that I was responding to the red. As I said, I'm not disputing the overarching claim that TFA isn't terribly original. But your assertion that nothing has changed from the OT is as stupid as your not getting my satire. 👆

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ it's pretty f*cking obvious that I was responding to the red. As I said, I'm not disputing the overarching claim that TFA isn't terribly original. But your assertion that nothing has changed from the OT is as stupid as your not getting caring about my satire. 👆

🙂