Originally posted by The_Tempest
TFA is unoriginal and undermines the shit that came before it.
The former isn't something I'm contesting; the latter is blatantly wrong, and with the latter your only argument has been to just shift the conversation to the first argument (.ie that it looks similar, which is just your former contention), lel.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ it's pretty f*cking obvious that I was responding to the red. As I said, I'm not disputing the overarching claim that TFA isn't terribly original. But your assertion that nothing has changed from the OT is as stupid as your not getting my satire. 👆
Aaaaaand your refrain can be summarized as: "The Empire's defeat is relevant because of reasons that aren't remotely articulated or conveyed in the actual movie! But like trust me it was supes important!"
And what on earth led you to believe I genuinely think you worship me? haermm
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Aaaaaand your refrain can be summarized as: "The Empire's defeat is relevant because of reasons that aren't remotely articulated or conveyed in the actual movie! But like trust me it was supes important!"
Again, I never see much elaboration on the impacts that stopping X threat has in any movie, except for maybe a brief epilogue. RotJ had like ten minutes of fireworks, lol.
It's not like these reasons are particularly obscure or difficult to grasp, so it can be taken for granted that people get it.
At most, you could argue that we should've had some sort of scene earlier in the movie that shows the New Republic or something, but I don't think it's a very damning criticism.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmmI know some worship me. But in general, most are just fixated on me. The difference is subtle and I'm pleased by both. stoned
People are fixated on Legend too. 😬
Heck, I think people were much more fixated on HWKA than you now, lawl.
Anyway, I've no interest in starting a flame war. I need you to sh*t on Vitiate.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Again, I never see much elaboration on the impacts that stopping X threat has in any movie, except for maybe a brief epilogue. RotJ had like ten minutes of fireworks, lol.It's not like these reasons are particularly obscure or difficult to grasp, so it can be taken for granted that people get it.
At most, you could argue that we should've had some sort of scene earlier in the movie that shows the New Republic or something, but I don't think it's a very damning criticism.
That fireworks montage did a great deal to establish visually just how important Endor was to everyone in the galaxy. 👆
TFA didn't need a 3 minute prologue talking about how significant the defeat of the Empire was. It could have shown us quietly throughout the entire movie, underscoring the hallmarks of an irrevocably altered galaxy.
Instead, it did the exact opposite, contorting itself to portray an unchanged status quo. It didn't depict the First Order as a motley group of podunk terrorists in the galaxy's backwater dangerous to only the protags. They built a superweapon lampshaded as vastly more dangerous than the Empire's greatest weapon, they blow up the enemy capital, and they have the same trappings of the Empire from stormtroopers to Star Destroyers except theirs is omg like totes better and wayyyy cooler. The galaxy's alleged superpower isn't a presence within the story and is then promptly blown to hell so as to further cement the First Order's supremacy.
Stylistically and substantively, the writers do their very best to put the First Order in the same position as the Empire. What few differences there are are minor at best. If any meaningful difference exists, it has not been conveyed to the audience.
I can't make it clearer than that. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
TFA didn't need a 3 minute prologue talking about how significant the defeat of the Empire was. It could have shown us quietly throughout the entire movie, underscoring the hallmarks of an irrevocably altered galaxy.
I derive enough satisfaction from the Rebels' triumph in the OT from an intellectual understanding that it has accrued benefits by TFA despite not visibly seeing it, just as how I don't see the aftermath of plenty of films where a nuclear threat is stopped or whatever, but can imagine it. I would prefer more, as I've said myself, but it hardly makes the old movies "irrelevant", it's just a mild variation of the overarching criticism of the films being unoriginal. It's a stylistic difference, not one of the plot. If you disagree, then I guess we're just at an impasse of opinions and nothing can be further resolved.
No but really, though I think it foolish to ignore the fact that TFA blatantly recycles A New Hope's basic tropes and narrative structure, I disagree that this makes in an inherently bad movie, and frankly no one should really be surprised.
Since ANH (which itself built on the classic tropes of the Hero's Journey) Star Wars has pretty much been making its own tropes and redefining old ones, and if you pay attention, you'll see these tropes recycled and rehashed again and again in every single movie, because they work and they can be reworked. Every Star Wars film in this respect, "rip-offs" its predecessors to some extent.
I also disagree that TFA executes them badly, the only aspect I find lacking was Starkiller Base, and even then it adequately served its narrative purpose as, in the end, a backdrop for the central plot points.
On the other hand Jakku is just as distinct and interesting as Tatooine; BB-8 is every bit R2's equal; Han Solo every bit the mentor Kenobi was; the First Order is every bit as dark and menacing as the Galactic Empire, albeit in a different way; Kylo Ren as an inexperienced villain struggling to be evil, adds a whole new dynamic to the Vader-role etc. etc.
On the other hand, the cast and acting is undeniably superb; the settings and practical effects were gorgeous; the humor rivaled ANH at its best; and the pew pew was indeed, on point.
Finally I find "it negates all the successes of the Rebellion" to be something of an abstract and therefore inconsequential point. Especially when this movie takes place 30 years on. Maz Kanata's words about the endless battle between light and dark works for me, this is Star Wars for heavens sake, nothing will remain peaceful forever. The good guys just gotta keep fighting.