Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's reflected by the fact that improvements were made to forms during the PT era itself, and that its entirely illogical to think varioius Jedi Masters would not have done the same over a thousand year period. 😂Your argument is made on baseless assertions, there is no evidence that the pre-Ruusan Jedi didn't bother with lightsaber combat, only Makashi became obsolete.
So would Kas'im own Revan or Arcann or the HoT because he was born 3000 years after them? That's an even greater amount of time between the two era's. Does Koon own Exar Kun, Tulak Hord or Ajunta Pall? I think that's a ridiculous assertion. The techniques of lightsaber combat have stayed the same for most of the mythos. Individuals possess heightened levels in skill, not era's. Individual skill and talent is THE defining attribute in regards to overall skill.
There's no notable improvements to the forms outside of Mace Windu and pals creating Vapaad. Outside of that, as I already said, the Jedi Order suffered from 1000 years of stagnation without lightsaber-wielding opposition. They ceased training for lightsaber duels or putting much emphasis in that area. How would they even know if their improvements actually were improvements instead of regressions without facing real opposition? Dooku is noted to be so effective precisely because he specialised in an archaic form. In the RotS novel Yoda specifically highlights that unlike the Sith, the Jedi Order has not improved in 1000 years and that's why they lost.
Regardless, the techniques of Kas'im were seemingly lost after the Brotherhoods fall. It's not as if Plo Koon could possess improvements on them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So would Kas'im own Revan or Arcann or the HoT because he was born 3000 years after them?
So, two things. Firstly, there are a variety of sources implying that the ancient sith were vastly superior to the Russan-era ones. No such sources suggest a gap between the Ruusan-era and modern era Force users - indeed, the opposite is repeatedly implied. We know that the dark side grows stronger over the thousand years, that each banite sith is superior to the previous, and that the PT Jedi Order is in its prime. We can also infer this from the absurdly high concentration of Vitiate+ tier Force users in the PT. A somewhat near-Vitiate-potential Force user in ancient times was essentially a massive outlier (.ie nobody could challenge Marka Ragnos), whereas in the span of like less than a century there are over a dozen (Anakin + Skywalkers, Palpatine, Yoda, Gethzerion, Galen Marek, Kyp Durron, Maul, etc.). There are more Yoda/Palpatine rivaling Force users in the movies + NJO era than in the entire prior history of the Old Republic.
Secondly, I don't think Kas'im could own the mentioned duelists because of the disparity in Force ability - as I was discussing above. It's entirely possible that he outstrips them in technical ability.
Does Koon own Exar Kun, Tulak Hord or Ajunta Pall?
All of those quite frankly have better dueling feats than Kas'im, and are immensely powerful in the Force.
The techniques of lightsaber combat have stayed the same for most of the mythos.
That's nonsense. You yourself just pointed out that Kas'im had made "thousands" of new techniques. We know that even in the decade between TPM and AotC, Windu was working on perfecting vaapad, an entirely new lightsaber style, and probably the deadliest ever created. Likewise, as you yourself pointed out, plenty of individuals can and have made improvements and innovations upon forms, partially for their idiosyncratic use, but that must sometimes translate into universal innovations that others could also take advantage of. And the PT Jedi Order had the benefit of one thousand years of uninterrupted knowledge growth, where all systematic innovations could be recorded, stored, and passed down. Given the improvements that were made in the few decades of the PT alone, there's no reason why this wouldn't have compounded over a millenium.
Kas'im is outdated. Accept it.
Individuals possess heightened levels in skill, not era's. Individual skill and talent is THE defining attribute in regards to overall skill.
Nonsense - it's clearly a combination of both. The best chess players from the 18th century would be annihilated by any nationally competitive player today. Things improve over time.
Outside of that, as I already said, the Jedi Order suffered from 1000 years of stagnation without lightsaber-wielding opposition.
They have training sabers, they can spar without needing to fight people for real - and indeed, it's made clear that they did spar regularly, and that these were pretty popular spectacles.
Modern UFC fighters would eviscerate ancient martial artists, despite the decreased importance of hand to hand combat.
Dooku is noted to be so effective precisely because he specialised in an archaic form.
Makashi wasn't discarded for being good at lightsaber combat, it was discarded because it was weak at blaster bolt deflection.
In the RotS novel Yoda specifically highlights that unlike the Sith, the Jedi Order has not improved in 1000 years and that's why they lost.
The Sith evolved philosophically and strategically, while the Jedi got arrogant and complacent. This has nothing to do with their dueling ability - if anything, their increase in power made them more arrogant.
Regardless, the techniques of Kas'im were seemingly lost after the Brotherhoods fall. It's not as if Plo Koon could possess improvements on them.
So what? Kas'im is one man - Plo Koon has benefited from the incremental improvements of a thousand years of the Jedi at their prime.
Kas'im is old news.
Originally posted by NephthysWhy are you raising exceptions here? Exar Kun developed his own Niman form that outclassed the technique of his age, and there is evidently no continuity between the ancient Sith are their successive eras as their empire was destroyed.
So would Kas'im own Revan or Arcann or the HoT because he was born 3000 years after them? That's an even greater amount of time between the two era's. Does Koon own Exar Kun, Tulak Hord or Ajunta Pall? I think that's a ridiculous assertion. The techniques of lightsaber combat have stayed the same for most of the mythos. Individuals possess heightened levels in skill, not era's. Individual skill and talent is THE defining attribute in regards to overall skill.
As for Revan, Arcann and the HoT? Or course Kas'im, Plo Koon and other great PT masters are much more technically refined than all of them. Does Zakuul even have knowledge of the seven forms?
There's no notable improvements to the forms outside of Mace Windu and pals creating Vapaad. Outside of that, as I already said, the Jedi Order suffered from 1000 years of stagnation without lightsaber-wielding opposition. They ceased training for lightsaber duels or putting much emphasis in that area. How would they even know if their improvements actually were improvements instead of regressions without facing real opposition? Dooku is noted to be so effective precisely because he specialised in an archaic form. In the RotS novel Yoda specifically highlights that unlike the Sith, the Jedi Order has not improved in 1000 years and that's why they lost.Right, so its just a coincidence the PT era happens to be populated by what over half dozen of the greatest lightsaber masters in mythos, including the greatest of them all?
I mean can you substantiate any of these claims that you are making? I've yet to see you raise a single source to support this stagnation theory, I mean really, they ceased lightsaber duel training? So I guess the inumerable times we see Jedi sparring against each other in lightsaber combat were all outliers, a dream perhaps? Lmao. Utter nonsense.
Again, Makashi became obsolete, saberstaffs became obsolete and more Jedi favoured Niman. That's all there's evidence for.
And Yoda states that unlike the Sith, the Jedi have failed to adapt, not improve. Namely they were preparing to fight another Sith War, you know, one with lots of lightsaber to lightsaber combat.
Regardless, the techniques of Kas'im were seemingly lost after the Brotherhoods fall. It's not as if Plo Koon could possess improvements on them.Who ever claimed as much? I mean you realise Plo Koon is a Jedi right? 😂
Neph
In the RotS novel Yoda specifically highlights that unlike the Sith, the Jedi Order has not improved in 1000 years and that's why they lost.
Pretty sure that's bullshit. I recall Yoda acknowledging the Sith improved in a number of ways whereas the Jedi spent all their time training to "fight the last war."
Meaning Yoda was prepared to fight the Sith like the Jedi used to, not the way Sheev fought.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty sure that's bullshit. I recall Yoda acknowledging the Sith improved in a number of ways whereas the Jedi spent all their time training to "fight the last war."Meaning Yoda was prepared to fight the Sith like the Jedi used to, not the way Sheev fought.
It's directly stated in the ROTS novel, yeah.
Also can we take a moment just to acknowledge the sheer amount of saber talent the PT era possessed?
Kit Fisto, Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu and Sora Bulq have all been acknowledged as among the greatest duelists in mythos. Most being the best masters of their respective forms we know of.
And far from being exceptions, we have the likes of Agen Kolar, Shaak Ti, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos, Saesee Tinn, Anoon Bondara, Cin Drallig and Plo Koon who have been and have compared to their abilities. Many if not most of whom could give Darth Maul, one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in history, a good or great fight.
But yeah, they were stagnating and nobody bothered with lightsaber combat anymore. 🙄
Originally posted by ILS
It's amazing that Kas'im himself stresses the point that when you become good enough you can "move past forms and sequences", and yet here we are, spending years, dozens of threads and hundreds of posts arguing over whether or not Kas'im l33t saber knowledge is gonna earn him a win.
Clearly Kas'im isn't good enough then. 😉
Originally posted by ILSGood point. mmm
It's amazing that Kas'im himself stresses the point that when you become good enough you can "move past forms and sequences", and yet here we are, spending years, dozens of threads and hundreds of posts arguing over whether or not Kas'im l33t saber knowledge is gonna earn him a win.
ILS would you be cool with CaV'ing DMB on TPM Maul vs. Kas'im?
Spoiler:
Not that he's said he wanted to do one, just curious on if hypothetically you'd be interested.