Originally posted by |King Joker|Would I be cool with publicly mutilating someone?
Good point. mmmILS would you be cool with CaV'ing DMB on TPM Maul vs. Kas'im?
Spoiler:
Not that he's said he wanted to do one, just curious on if hypothetically you'd be interested.
mmm
I guess? The answer is kind of clear doe.
I no longer have the time no inclination to debate two people on the same subject. And I seem to have crashed atm, I'm bone tired. So I'll respond to a few things from Ellimist's attempt to cut in and my original opponent Beni.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So, two things. Firstly, there are a variety of sources implying that the ancient sith were vastly superior to the Russan-era ones.
In Force techniques, mentality and organisation, sure. Not necessarily in terms of lightsaber forms. Even Bane, who utterly despaired of the Sith of his era, stated that Kas'im had perfected the forms and questioned if he was the greatest duelist in history.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
No such sources suggest a gap between the Ruusan-era and modern era Force users - indeed, the opposite is repeatedly implied. We know that the dark side grows stronger over the thousand years, that each banite sith is superior to the previous, and that the PT Jedi Order is in its prime. We can also infer this from the absurdly high concentration of Vitiate+ tier Force users in the PT. A somewhat near-Vitiate-potential Force user in ancient times was essentially a massive outlier (.ie nobody could challenge Marka Ragnos), whereas in the span of like less than a century there are over a dozen (Anakin + Skywalkers, Palpatine, Yoda, Gethzerion, Galen Marek, Kyp Durron, Maul, etc.). There are more Yoda/Palpatine rivaling Force users in the movies + NJO era than in the entire prior history of the Old Republic.
We're talking about lightsaber techniques here. Not power.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Secondly, I don't think Kas'im could own the mentioned duelists because of the disparity in Force ability - as I was discussing above. It's entirely possible that he outstrips them in technical ability.All of those quite frankly have better dueling feats than Kas'im, and are immensely powerful in the Force.
🙄
You know what I mean. Are their lightsaber techniques automatically superior just because they live a thousand or so years after each other? Is Plo Koon, an exceptional but hardly top tier duelist in his own era, above the very best of earlier periods in terms of skill, simply because he's from the PT period? Is the very best from Bane's era better than the very best of earlier ones?
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Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why are you raising exceptions here?
Is Kas'im not exceptional?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exar Kun developed his own Niman form that outclassed the technique of his age, and there is evidently no continuity between the ancient Sith are their successive eras as their empire was destroyed.
The same thing applies to Kas'im.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
As for Revan, Arcann and the HoT? Of course Kas'im, Plo Koon and other great PT masters are much more technically refined than all of them.
I highly disagree. 🙂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Does Zakuul even have knowledge of the seven forms?
I'm not sure. Whatever they have must be effective against them though, judging from their performance against the Jedi and Sith. I'm sure Vitiate wouldn't allow his pet project to practise inferior methods.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, so its just a coincidence the PT era happens to be populated by what over half dozen of the greatest lightsaber masters in mythos, including the greatest of them all?
That's more about the sheer exposure the PT has in it's favor compared to, like, every other era combined?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I mean can you substantiate any of these claims that you are making? I've yet to see you raise a single source to support this stagnation theory, I mean really, they ceased lightsaber duel training? So I guess the inumerable times we see Jedi sparring against each other in lightsaber combat were all outliers, a dream perhaps? Lmao. Utter nonsense.Again, Makashi became obsolete, saberstaffs became obsolete and more Jedi favoured Niman. That's all there's evidence for.
And what's the reason for this? It's exactly what I said, Jedi had less of a reason to practise the dueling arts so they turned away from the form favoring that kind of combat to the diplomats form. Makashi became obsolete because they never engaged in actual lightsaber combat, only practice bouts.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Yoda states that unlike the Sith, the Jedi have failed to adapt, not improve. Namely they were preparing to fight another Sith War, you know, one with lots of lightsaber to lightsaber combat.
Which is you admit is not what they did, as they moved away from lightsaber to lightsaber combat and when the Sith did reveal themselves Dooku ran rampant with his Makashi.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who ever claimed as much? I mean you realise Plo Koon is a Jedi right? 😂
The basic argument is that Plo Koon would possess far more evolved versions of the forms Kas'im wields. Firstly, this is a bastardisation of my original point, which is that Kas'im demonstrates exceptional talent, mastery and understanding of the forms from his utter mastery of all aspects of them and his ability to craft thousands of techniques and sequences for them all. To me, this demonstrates talent beyond anything attributable to Plo Koon.
Secondly, since Kas'im's teachings weren't accessible to the Jedi, how could Plo Koon wield an improved version of the techniques Kas'im invented? Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that given that Kas'im spent decades perfecting every single move of every single form that Plo Koon could possess a significantly improved version of the forms wielded by Kas'im. You're assuming there's a way to improve upon a form that's already been in effect for thousands of years and has been obsessively perfected by a prodigy. The onus is on you to prove that Plo Koon's techniques have actually been improved upon beyond what Kas'im "perfected" in his own time.
Thirdly, even if Plo Koon possesses a superior version of a single form to Kas'im, that does not mean that he is the superior practitioner with the form. Also Kas'im possesses absolute mastery of all the forms and can switch between saberstaff, dual sabers and single saber styles at will. His skills and capabilities still blow Koon's out of the water.
Originally posted by |King Joker|The only sense of scale we have for that fight is that Maul is apprenticed to the culmination of Bane's order of Sith, which grows stronger with each generation. You could argue Maul in no way benefits from the RoT scaling, because he didn't learn everything Palpatine had to teach him, or you could argue that him being noted in canon as a worthy successor of the RoT in Palpatine's stead by TPM alone indicates that after 1,000 years of power growth, he's probably better than Bane.
Pretty sure everyone and their brother wants to see that CaV.
Otherwise it becomes a feat-war, which would involve DMB mustering all the wank Drew can lend him vs me shoving Rivi-Anu down his throat and berating his logical approach.
Originally posted by ILS
The only sense of scale we have for that fight is that Maul is apprenticed to the culmination of Bane's order of Sith, which grows stronger with each generation. You could argue Maul in no way benefits from the RoT scaling, because he didn't learn everything Palpatine had to teach him, or you could argue that him being noted in canon as a worthy successor of the RoT in Palpatine's stead by TPM alone indicates that after 1,000 years of power growth, he's probably better than Bane.
Tbf, Maul's status as a worthy successor obviously deals with his potential, not his realized power which doesn't approach Sidious's. We can't establish that X fraction of his potential is greater than Bane's prime.
Originally posted by ILSNGL that's a pretty good summary on what would likely happen.
The only sense of scale we have for that fight is that Maul is apprenticed to the culmination of Bane's order of Sith, which grows stronger with each generation. You could argue Maul in no way benefits from the RoT scaling, because he didn't learn everything Palpatine had to teach him, or you could argue that him being noted in canon as a worthy successor of the RoT in Palpatine's stead by TPM alone indicates that after 1,000 years of power growth, he's probably better than Bane.Otherwise it becomes a feat-war, which would involve DMB mustering all the wank Drew can lend him vs me shoving Rivi-Anu down his throat and berating his logical approach.
Though, it'd still be fun as **** to see unfold.
Originally posted by The EllimistIt might deal with potential, but then Maul's training was definitely closer to done than in progress. And as we know, the difference between Sidious and Bane is unfathomably large. So unless Maul was going to take several massive leaps in power before his time was done, which I don't think is the case, then yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if one of Palpy's potential successors is better than Bane.
Tbf, Maul's status as a worthy successor obviously deals with his potential, not his realized power which doesn't approach Sidious's. We can't establish that X fraction of his potential is greater than Bane's prime.
Originally posted by Nephthysy nat? It's just as bad writing as anything in the Bane trilogy, it just serves my purpose better.
This forum has enough cancer without someone unironically trying to use Rivi-Anu in a debate.
Originally posted by ILS
It might deal with potential, but then Maul's training was definitely closer to done than in progress.
I mean, he was in his twenties, right? Very few Force users are even at a fraction of their potential by that point.
And that very argument could be used to claim that Maul either doesn't have as much potential as Sidious's, or that he's already close to him.
And as we know, the difference between Sidious and Bane is unfathomably large. So unless Maul was going to take several massive leaps in power before his time was done, which I don't think is the case, then yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if one of Palpy's potential successors is better than Bane.
He probably would've made several leaps in power though. Sidious grows more powerful from RotS to DE, for example. Luke grows massively more powerful from DE to NJO. Why would Maul's potential be unlocked so early if it's actually comparable to Sidious's?
Originally posted by NephthysDoes he exist in the top-tier? Sure. Is he truly exceptional? No. I would put the likes of prime Bane, Zannah, Raskta Lsu and Sarro Xaj in his league, and it stands to reason they too had peers.
Is Kas'im not exceptional?The same thing applies to Kas'im.
Kas'im is not an outlier for his era. Whereas the only person who compared to Kun was Ulic.
I highly disagree. 🙂Well unless you have evidence that demonstrates their technical skill, your opinion is irrelevant. 🙂
That's more about the sheer exposure the PT has in it's favor compared to, like, every other era combined?I'm sure that's what you tell yourself at night. But if that were the case the TOR era wouldn't be the most notorious for its atrociously abused hype and ground realities.
It's had plenty exposure, as have other eras relative to their population.
And what's the reason for this? It's exactly what I said, Jedi had less of a reason to practise the dueling arts so they turned away from the form favoring that kind of combat to the diplomats form. Makashi became obsolete because they never engaged in actual lightsaber combat, only practice bouts.Is that a source? No just more of Neph's opinion...
Which is you admit is not what they did, as they moved away from lightsaber to lightsaber combat and when the Sith did reveal themselves Dooku ran rampant with his Makashi.When did I admit that? I imagine the Jedi put a good degree of effort into preparing for the return of the Sith, as Yoda's claim explicitly implies.
Again all that became obsolete was Makashi (though it was still practiced and encouraged), because of its singular focus on lightsaber combat in an age of blaster wielders.
More rounded forms like Shii-Cho, Ataru, Juyo, Djem So, all highly effective in lightsaber combat (but unlike Makashi, blaster deflection also), remained in good practice to our knowledge. 👆
The basic argument is that Plo Koon would possess far more evolved versions of the forms Kas'im wields. Firstly, this is a bastardisation of my original point, which is that Kas'im demonstrates exceptional talent, mastery and understanding of the forms from his utter mastery of all aspects of them and his ability to craft thousands of techniques and sequences for them all. To me, this demonstrates talent beyond anything attributable to Plo Koon.Yes, it's called using Neph's crappy arguments against him. Fun huh? 🙂
Secondly, since Kas'im's teachings weren't accessible to the Jedi, how could Plo Koon wield an improved version of the techniques Kas'im invented? Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that given that Kas'im spent decades perfecting every single move of every single form that Plo Koon could possess a significantly improved version of the forms wielded by Kas'im. You're assuming there's a way to improve upon a form that's already been in effect for thousands of years and has been obsessively perfected by a prodigy. The onus is on you to prove that Plo Koon's techniques have actually been improved upon beyond what Kas'im "perfected" in his own time.Who said anything about improvement on Kas'im's personal technique?
My point is that Plo Koon's Form V would be notably more advanced than anything Kas'im has ever faced before, and probably more advanced than his form in general. Kas'im perfecting and improving ultimately heavily outdated, obsolete techniques doesn't really change that.
Thirdly, even if Plo Koon possesses a superior version of a single form to Kas'im, that does not mean that he is the superior practitioner with the form. Also Kas'im possesses absolute mastery of all the forms and can switch between saberstaff, dual sabers and single saber styles at will. His skills and capabilities still blow Koon's out of the water.Yet was still shat on by PoD Bane? Why was that again? Oh yeah because Bane had a Force advantage, good thing Koon has that advantage as well. 😉