Originally posted by Nai
🙄Since I really don't have the time to lecture you on the use of false analogies, let me just move back to square one.
The Force is an energy reserve that is pretty much infinite.
Sidious can use this infinite source of energy to empower a force storm.
That Force storm, given sufficient energy and time, can destroy the universe.
Does that make Sidious a universe buster?My answer is "No.", because he isn't doing the universe busting. He isn't exerting energy to have an effect like that. He channels the energy of an all-encompassing energy field into an ability that might, given enough time, cause the "desired" effect. With the quantity of "enough time" not being defined.
Who gives a sh*t? You obviously did not get my analogies, as they were very much relevant to your weird sophistic babble - the distinction between "Sidious is a universe buster" and "Sidious can channel energies that then universe bust" is irrelevant. Despite all of your so eloquently worded walls of text, you have yet to come up with a single reason as to why anyone should give a f*ck about your obsession with semantics.
Ooohhh, Jack didn't kill his wife - he pulled a trigger on a gun which then killed his wife! I'm so brilliant! 🙄
Given infinite amount of time and unlimited energy, ever ability by every force user is theoretically capable of destroying the entire universe - even if it happens atom by atom. So every force user is a potential "universe buster"?
Once again, it's patently absurd to interpret "threatened to consume all of space" as "threatened to eventually consume all of space given a hypothetically immortal Sidious acting without pause for the lifespan of the universe prior to complete proton decay".
If a text says "Force lightning can vaporize humans", it does not mean "well theoretically the lightning will impart some energy on your skin which will vaporize minute quantities, and so after a few decades your body will be completed converted into gaseous components."
I don't know who you're trying to impress with your nitpicking.
It's actually reasonable to conclude, that the authors weren't even thinking before writing down that line. And it's very same to assume, that non of the authors thought about this line being taken literally and then used to proclaim that Sidious can destroy the SW universe. So "being reasonable" doesn't have to do anything with your side of the argument, I'm afraid.
😂
The authors probably aren't thinking about versus debates at all whenever they do anything. Do you think the creators of your masturbatory fantasy are carefully vetting how his gauntlets and Force abilities will properly match up against Darth Sidious? Seriously?
Can we just dismiss The Phantom Menace as non-canon because Lucas didn't think it out really well? Where's the line where we can just negate things we don't like because Nai doesn't find it appealing?
And how do you know this, anyway?
But thanks for admitting that your entire argument reduces to outright ignoring sources you don't like because you think you can read minds.
You mean, like, you know, destroying the universe with a force storm is something that will take a long time to pull of and can't be done in the middle of combat? 😉 Technically, Sidious can't even summon a Force storm "in the middle of combat" and then, he can't use the technique in combat in an efficient way.
He can still do them with far less effort and preparation than Vitiate can do Nathema, for example.
This isn't relevant to the thread topic in either case.
Or I could question how long it would take for the Force storm to destroy "all of space", to which the answer would be "No, idea" with the reasonable answer from the actual properties of the Force strom in question would be "A pretty damn long time".
"Threaten" implies that it was in a timespan that made it a realistic issue given the circumstances and Palpatine's mortal lifespan. You can have a wide range of uncertainty in quantifying a feat and still be confident that both upper and lower range estimates would be sufficient for your case.
By the way, Dooku wouldn't be able to bust the universe with his lightning. He'd die of old age or dehydration way before.
Yes. And apparently they cannot be summoned just in front of you, in order to take people down that are about to defeat you in direct combat. Makes you wonder why somebody with the power to destroy the universe, doesn't even use a tiny fraction of it, to get rid of the aforementioned imminent danger.
How is this relevant? In either case, Palpatine could just teleport himself away, and then case Force storms via proxy across light years. He's done both.
So much that he rather dies than making a smart move?
...yes? He had Yoda on the floor out cold in RotS, and just stands there and crackles. That doesn't mean he's incapable of decapitating people.
Also he didn't want to kill Luke or Leia, his whole plan was to create a Skywalker dynasty, lol.
I'd contest the idea, that the application of the Force used for the destruction of a part of Ruusan's surface, was similar to the Force Storms that Sidious conjured.
Irrelevant. The point remains the same - that others tried to blow lots of things up, and failed to match Sidious's.
Including all wars that Palpatine himself participated in...
He only knew how to control them in Dark Empire, and he does use them to attack fleets, lol.
Technically: Yes. Vitiate's final ritual threatened to end all life in the Galaxy. Exar Kun's force invested in the Dark Reaper threatened to end the Republic. And there were various events of Force user utilizing planetary scale destruction in a aimed (Nihilus, Vitiate) or rather unfortunate (the Sith Witch that wiped all life on Ambria out) ways. Or even applications of the Force that were far more destructive, e.g. Aleema Keto pulling the core of a star out, triggering a supernova that wiped out several species and destroyed a rather large part of space.
Except for Nihilus (and his drain isn't nearly as destructive as Palpatine's storms, as they clearly don't rip the surfaces off of worlds), none of these could be done without special circumstances like other sith, nexuses, devices, etc.
I find it rather funny, that you keep bringing up "combat situations", when Sidious has never used the Force storm in combat or to win a fight. Which is, once again, part of my motivation to argue here: If we take the force storm with its theoretical "universe busting powers" to measure the personal power of Sidious, we need to apply the same reasoning to all other applications of the Force, without taking certain factors (method, time needed) into consideration. I find that approach rather laughable. You don't?
What's to stop him from teleporting himself away and then frying whoever? The only actual argument you can come up against this is that he doesn't do it - yeah, he's a jobber. But that doesn't change the fact that he could easily do this to anyone, even your precious Exar Kun, if he wanted to. 👆
So to recap:
[list]
[*]When a source refers to Palpatine's own dark power, it obviously refers to something else because Nai's interpretation
[*]Because Palpatine's Force storms can threaten all of space, so too can all the ancient Sith because Nai really likes them
[*]Palpatine not explicitly mentioning personal power in other sources equals explicit proclamation that personal power has nothing to do with Force storms
[*]Galaxy-threatening Force storms mean that any Force user can threaten the galaxy with any Force ability
[*]Aaaaaaand Palpatine's "definitely not a universe buster" until I prove that he can universe bust in any situation without context or catalyst
[/list]
Another LeGenDary argument from Nai. Well done, sir!
Originally posted by NaiYou read my response yes? Let me repeat myself, irrespective of its origins, the magnitude of this anger being funnelled is entirely relative to Palpatine's capacity to do so i.e. his capacity as a vessel for the dark side and Force user in general. Your point is again, moot.
You do realize, that if anger is "funneled through the body" of the user, it is pretty obvious, that the anger is coming from the outside and is released back into the outside, right? So I didn't see any reason to comment this, because it explicitly supports the argument I am making here - that the Force storm isn't powered by Sidious personal power. So the destinction is important for the question if Sidious has the power to destroy the universe, because, apparently, he has not. The Force (or the Dark Side) has. Which is nothing new, is it?
Wow.Right, sorry but I'm failing to see the relevance here. Whether or not say Anakin was fated to turn against the Jedi, fact remains that the hatred he held towards them was his own, as they were evidently personal to him. And yes considering Jedi meditate to find peace, and Sith meditate to sharpen their anger, evidently they can summon these emotions at will as well.
Thanks for solving a millenia old philosophical problem with your opinion. 👆 You are aware of the fact, that there is a rather long philosophical debate going on, regarding determinism and free will, right?How much of Anakin's fate and actions was determined? By "deceiding" where the boy is born, the Force did already ensure that Anakin wouldn't grow up in a happy enviroment. In an universe were, according to Obi-Wan Kenobi, there is no "luck", a Jedi stumbles across Anakin's path. Then the Jedi is killed, taking away both mother and the replacement from Anakin but ensuring that he is trained at the same time. And so on and so forth. What you see there, is perhabs chance.
What I see, with the view on a universe were the existance of an omnipresent, omnipowerful entity with an own will is not based on faith but a hard fact, I see a clever forging of the fate of that young individual, leading to all the events that unfolded later, from the destruction of the Jedi Order to Vader's redemption.
So, yes, it is actually a question, where those emotions come from. But I have an answer where they do not come from: The will of the person having them. You do not "decide" to get angry or to fall in love or to feel happy. The will acts according to emotions and not vice versa.
Regardless again, even if we accepted this the case, it would apply to all Force abilities, therefore rendering this distinction, again, redundant, as it would be universally applicable.
There is no point in furthering this line of argument really, other than to reinforce its irrelevancy.
Sorry, but that is ridiculous.Or maybe is just more complex in its response to stimulus? Who's to say the Force even has the ability to destroy its practitioners in such a manner? Such a level of influence would be rather unprecedented.
"Will" is defined as conscious and deliberate decission making. What you describe is a mere stimulus-response-model. Which is far below what the Force actually does. If the Force was merely reacting to attempts to "unbalance" it, we would see the stuff happening that Plagueis thought could happen when Sidious and himself were trying to unbalance the Force. The Force should have taken action immediately, wiping the Sith from the face of the universe. It doesn't. Instead it comes up with Anakin and events unfold as they did.Furthermore Qui-Gon in TPM tells Anakin, that he can listen to the will of the force, communicated to him by the midi-chlorians. This is again testatement to the idea, that this "will" is far beyond a stimulus-reaction-scheme. A similar clue can be found in the RotS novelization when the Force "tells" Kenobi, wen to act and what to do, while the Jedi confronts Grievous.
And in that regard: What do you think where the visions of Padme's dead Anakin was experiencing came from? But the problem here is: If a Force user can "listen" to the will of the Force, how does one destinguish whether a certain action of an individual force user was based on that or on the force users own will? Or in other words: How does one seperate instances of free will and determination in the SW universe?
And for the record I'm aware of what the definition is, my point is your applying it too literally.
Nope. If something is "by the Force" than that precludes the idea than it is "by Palpatine". And, gosh, why are there serveral source which describe the Force storm in a very particular fashion, why there is none that makes similiar allusions to other Force abilties (e.g. Force lightning). Maybe because there is something happening with a Force storm that does not happen with other abilities?So its by the Force now? I thought the sources said "of", oh yes they did. Lol.
As for this technique being exclusive to Force storms, that's incorrect, I already pointed out to you how its applied to indeed Force lightning and other powers as well:
Except I haven't. I've explicitly incorporated those statements into my reasoning on various points, while you and Tempest happily ignore everything contradicting your view. So, of course, I do accuse you of cherry picking, which is exactly what you are doing.Right, after we forced you to acknowledge them. 😂
"I will just missrepresent your argument again. Then I will state that I don't care what your argument is and call it wrong anyway." Clever girl... 🙄Sorry did I misquote you? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you said. 👆
Because I have just rejected some of your points out of hand, by proclaiming they don't have anything to do with the subject in question, without investing a thought in them? Right.In the absence of any actual counter to my assertion, I accept your concession. 🙂
Originally posted by NaiTempest summed this up rather aptly, nothing here explicitly contradicts the fact that this storm is achieved through "his own dark power", unleashed through an internal "portal" or connection to the Force. Your personal conclusions do not supersede stated facts, and as Temp points out, the omission of those details in one of many renderings proves nothing.
Oh. My. God. Do I really have to go through this again?Blah blah blah blah...
As for how the user can lose control of their creation, maybe because additional strength is required, on top of generating the storm and sustaining its existence, to then control and direct it as well? Not a difficult concept to grasp. And I've already provided addressed its ability to briefly persist after the user is destroyed.
And this is not even remotely compareable to a force storm and the description of the ability within the source material. So maybe Sidious can't channel compareable power into other abilities, because force storms aren't dependent on the personal power of the person summoning them, which is pretty self-evident from the complete source-material?And yet is described in the Book of Sith as "a technique [that] can be increased into a Force storm" by Palpatine himself. Get dunked. 🙂
So maybe Sidious can't channel compareable power into other abilities, because force storms aren't dependent on the personal power of the person summoning them, which is pretty self-evident from the complete source-material?Do you read? I already covered this. Your solution doesn't solve the problem.
You mean except for the part of the source-material, where Sidious happily proclaims that he hasn't mastered what you say is "his own power" (lol), that he the user can't completely control, what you think is "his own power" and that the ability, still viewed by you as "the power of the user" can turn on and destroy the user and will even survive the death of the user before dissipating. Yeah. That makes sense... 🙄Translation: "the source material doesn't fit with my conclusions so it's obviously wrong."
Are you really that dense?Is throwing petty insults how you aggrandise this imagined sense of intellectual superiority? Cute.
By the proclamation of Sidious himself, summoning a force storm can be done without effort and with a mere thought. There is not a single instance, in which further use of force is described. In fact, it is pretty much excluded, henc e my interpretation that Force storms are self-sustaining once being unleashed by the Force user in question, that you ignored.Now following your interpretation (force users personal power being used in the storm) to destroy the universe, obviously one would need to sustain the Force storm until the task is archived. If that isn't done instantly - or even fast (and the comic doesn't indicate anything like that at all), then, yes, the storm and the user will go long before the task of destroying the universe is archived, hence why I happily proclaimed that its senseless to assume that the Force storm could destroy the universe or that Sidious could do the job utilizing the aformentioned force storm.
Thanks for agreeing with me on the matter.
Your interpretations are all over the place, in your last response you said the storm required the wielder to continue to feed it, and now they are self-sustaining? Which is it?
And what are those limitations? If you use telekinesis to lift a stone, and do it often enough, you will reach a point where you have invested enough force energy to lift a planet. When you destroy anything using the force and do it often enough, you will once reach a point where you have used enough force energy to destroy a planet - or the entire universe. The only prerequisite here is an infinite amount of time. Which is, coincidentally, the only possible way for the Force strom as summoned by Sidious in DE, to destroy the entire universe: having an unlimited amount of time to work on it.Erm, I explained the limitations of a Force user in the above paragraph lol.Do you have any different thoughts on the issue? Because, you know, to me it just looks like if some people want to install a "no limit" rule for Sidious force abilities based on some statement in some comic companion. I could be wrong, though.
Yeah. A "u-turn" that a I have written in my usertitle for over a decade now and follow through with in a rather rigorous fashion. I'm not interested in changing the view of people posting here, much as I'm not interested in sharing my personal convictions with them. Why? Take a look at my signature.Who do you think fooling? We all know your as much a fanatic as the rest of us. ✅Most people here a fanatics in one way or another. And the benefit of being a fanatic is, that you're always right and will just ignore instances in which you are wrong. Just look how Tempest dodges the question, whether Sidious can replicate the supposed feat or not. No answer. Why?
Because nobody can prove that Sidious can replicate the feat, without being angered by outside circumstances. So even if that one Force Storm he summoned had the theoretical power to destroy the universe (and I'm rather sceptical in that regard), he may never be able to summon another one that has that ability. At that point, all "Yes. Sidious is a universe buster"-supporters are already soundly defeated and I win.
The rest is just entertainment to me, which you happily provided for free. Thank you. See you next weekend. Or not.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
And on what basis do you dismiss the OP's source?
Palpatine's Force Storm wasn't shredding the fabric of the Universe. Not even close.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Personal bias. 🙂
Switch Palpatine with Vitiate and my stance would remain the same.
Force Storm is not a universe-busting power, period.
Originally posted by Nephthys
When Canon is nearly as interesting to talk about.Also when we all move out of the EU forum.
Legends is just inconsistent nonsense. You'll never stop fighting over the daft inconsistencies.
Huh? EU doesn't mean Legends. It means Expanded Universe. I.e. Anything outside of the films. Check the rules. Canon takes priority now. It's just that you're still allowed to discuss Legends as well.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Because what they deemed canon is the most boring of all star wars lore and really, fewer and fewer people give a shit about it.
Really? Because last I heard a Canon movie made $2Billion at the box office.
Even within EU, the Canon comics are amongst the highest sellers. They beat the likes of Batman and Spider-Man comics Lol
So yeah that shows fewer and fewer people giving a shit alrite.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Really? Because last I heard a Canon movie made $2Billion at the box office. I could point to the growing subscribers of the TOR game (although it sucks now). Your argument is as valid as if you used the prequel trilogy instead of the new movie.Even within EU, the Canon comics are amongst the highest sellers. They beat the likes of Batman and Spider-Man comics Lol
So yeah that shows fewer and fewer people giving a shit alrite.
Last time I checked, they spent 200 million advertising the movie, lol. You don't have much of an argument when one has an unlimited budget and one has no budget.
The majority of the people that watched the movie will never read a comic or the novelization, they just wanted to see some pew pew. I went into that movie expecting to see something great, and I got all the "pew pew" I could handle instead.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Last time I checked, they spent 200 million advertising the movie, lol. You don't have much of an argument when one has an unlimited budget and one has no budget.The majority of the people that watched the movie will never read a comic or the novelization, they just wanted to see some pew pew. I went into that movie expecting to see something great, and I got all the "pew pew" I could handle instead.
Yeah because every film with a $200mill budget grosses $2Billion right?
I'm not the biggest fan of the film myself, but I certainly gave a shit, because it was Canon.
So you saying fewer and fewer people give a shit about Canon after that movie hit, was frankly a retarded statement.
And then you go on about people watching the movie never read a comic, after I've already pointed out to you that the Canon SW comics sell better than the Batman and Spider-Man comics LOL
Yeah because every film with a $200mill budget grosses $2Billion right?
So you saying fewer and fewer people give a shit about Canon after that movie hit, was frankly a retarded statement.
And then you go on about people watching the movie never read a comic, after I've also pointed out to you that the Canon comic sell better than the Batman and Spider-Man comics LOL