Brexit, should Britain leave the EU?

It's what I call the "Hilary Clinton defense": it's bad, but the other side is totally worse.

Also look at this:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/brexit-u-k-vote-fuels-morning-after-regret-some-brits-n598686

One woman laments the "older generation" is dictating the future of her kids. Hmm, isn't that kinda sorta..how shit always goes?

It's also hard to even take some people seriously when they say they aren't in favor of leaving but they voted to leave anyways because they didn't think their vote would matter. That is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. It's like these are college females who regret banging a douchey frat boy the night before.

If you want to leave then own it..don't whine about it literally the next day and act all confused at how this possibly could of happened.

@Slay (since it won't let me quote you)

Do you know the percentage of immigrants in Scotland without looking it up first?

Now for my answer: I shouldn't have to explain this again but you must know of the political opinions in Northern Ireland and Scotland. You should surely know what the SNP's and DUP's (and Sinn Fein) opinions are. The countries political makeup. Knowing the results of the general election would also help here. I don't need to wax lyrical on something you can find the answer to yourself easily (this isn't meant rudely) - but you should really be able to find this out yourself without asking me.

You didn't answer my question.

Are [b]you implying that because of all the research you've done into the Remain campaign that they were completely pure and done absolutely nothing wrong?

And yes you are meant to take it seriously. I don't say things that I don't advocate or mean. If you as a Czech (if I am correct). If you were an expat living in say Pierre and St Miquelon for a year for work and just as you left a vote was started to oust Milos Zeman. I don't think you deserve any right to vote. You've elft the country for a certain amount fo time and won't face the immediate impact of a decision.

In fact it's very similar to the E.U imposing it's rules on England that it wants us to abide by and we can't make a decision on it. Mr Johnson living in Prague wants to vote on something that effects England and the UK. While he isn't living in the UK he has absolutely no right to vote. I'm not letting someone who lives abroad temporarily for no matter how long have a single chance of getting a vote in.

And there isn't a need for you to bold and underline expats. I fully read every message that is sent to me. And I am aware of what an expat is. And not just from knowing it. But my Dad has been an expat many a time for multiple European countries. [/B]

I've never implied that Remain campaigners are angels, as I've stated in the exact same post you quoted. As for the Leave campaigners, I don't think that selling their campaign on lies and later reneging on a large deal of what made their campaign attractive to the electorate equates to them 'not being angels', though.

I vehemently disagree with that. In fact, I personally think that's preposterous to say the least. According to you, it won't effect them in the short-term (say a year or two). This statement is extremely short-sighted. Let's not forget that most of them work for British companies. Britain's EU status directly effects their jobs and their contribution to Britain's economy. Besides this, if we were to pretend for the sake of argument that you are right about the Brexit not effecting them in the short term, as you well know, the Brexit will have it's effects for decades to come, not just in the short term and will effect their lives as greatly as those of the people that live in Britain right now. And whether you want it to be true or not doesn't change the fact that British expats DO have the right to vote in this referendum and they should have received their ballot papers to do so.

Originally posted by Surtur
It's what I call the "Hilary Clinton defense": it's bad, but the other side is totally worse.

Also look at this:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/brexit-u-k-vote-fuels-morning-after-regret-some-brits-n598686

One woman laments the "older generation" is dictating the future of her kids. Hmm, isn't that kinda sorta..how shit always goes?

It's also hard to even take some people seriously when they say they aren't in favor of leaving but they voted to leave anyways because they didn't think their vote would matter. That is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. It's like these are college females who regret banging a douchey frat boy the night before.

If you want to leave then own it..don't whine about it literally the next day and act all confused at how this possibly could of happened.

Exactly, and the thing is people like that are idiots. The shouldn't have voted Leave at all if they didn't know.

Take my Uncle he wasn't sure what to choose so I just told him to abstain. Even though I could have told him to leave he wouldn't have made the choice on his own back. If he really is that thick (which he isn't as it happens) then he shouldn't vote anyway.

Anyone who voted Leave because they weren't sure I would gladly have their votes rescinded.

And it's also made me laugh at a lot of young people crying about the old people making a decision for them, pardon my language here - you just made a ****ing decision yourselves. You made a decision for yourselves, your children and there children. You aren't any different to them.

And they also act like they are the only group who should vote because they are so progressive and all the old people are stuck in their ways. They don't tend to think of themselves lacking in decades of knowledge and just blindly following a set of principles.

Originally posted by Slay
I was asking for your explanation of this fact. Apparently you've posted it before in this thread and don't want to explain it again, which is fair enough.

I've never implied that Remain campaigners are angels, as I've stated in the exact same post you quoted. As for the Leave campaigners, I don't think that selling their campaign on lies and later reneging on a large deal of what made their campaign attractive to the electorate equates to them 'not being angels', though.

I vehemently disagree with that. In fact, I personally think that's preposterous to say the least. According to you, it won't effect them in the short-term (say a year or two). This statement is extremely short-sighted. Let's not forget that most of them work for British companies. Britain's EU status directly effects their jobs and their contribution to Britain's economy. Besides this, if we were to pretend for the sake of argument that you are right about the Brexit not effecting them in the short term, as you well know, the Brexit will have it's effects for decades to come, not just in the short term and will effect their lives as greatly as those of the people that live in Britain right now. And whether you want it to be true or not doesn't change the fact that British expats DO have the right to vote in this referendum and they should have received their ballot papers to do so.

I haven't posted it in this thread at all (at least to my knowledge), it's just that you need to at least research why Northern Ireland and Scotland are the way they are before even entering the debate. It's kind of silly for anyone to start debating when they don't even know the basic premises. It'd be better if you genuinely didn't know and wanted me to tell you. But if that was the case you shouldn't really start making opinions on an issue like this without knowing some of the facts.

Their EU status doesn't affect their jobs.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-jobs-and-eu/

I just disagree that when you leave a country for a certain period of time you have the right to change the laws of your home nation, even if you were to return. I just don't believe it is correct.

I don't believe while they are abroad they have the right to vote. And we won't ever convince each other so it is better to agree to disagree on this point.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Exactly, and the thing is people like that are idiots. The shouldn't have voted Leave at all if they didn't know.

Take my Uncle he wasn't sure what to choose so I just told him to abstain. Even though I could have told him to leave he wouldn't have made the choice on his own back. If he really is that thick (which he isn't as it happens) then he shouldn't vote anyway.

Anyone who voted Leave because they weren't sure I would gladly have their votes rescinded.

And it's also made me laugh at a lot of young people crying about the old people making a decision for them, pardon my language here - you just made a ****ing decision yourselves. You made a decision for yourselves, your children and there children. You aren't any different to them.

And they also act like they are the only group who should vote because they are so progressive and all the old people are stuck in their ways. They don't tend to think of themselves lacking in decades of knowledge and just blindly following a set of principles.

Exactly and I also feel this will just make relations between the USA and Britain even better because we have so many things in common. Like the people who regret the way they voted? Probably have a lot in common with Americans who voted for Obama.

Originally posted by Surtur
Exactly and I also feel this will just make relations between the USA and Britain even better because we have so many things in common. Like the people who regret the way they voted? Probably have a lot in common with Americans who voted for Obama.

"Come on guys let's vote for Obama because he's the first black President! It doesn't matter if his policies are good or not. But guys he's black"

Then when it goes to shit like it is now it becomes.

"You're such a racist for saying I don't care what a President's colour is I just want him/her to be a good president, being black shouldn't be a prerequisite for voting for someone".

But of course the young College teenagers are the most intelligent people on Earth.

(some say they have IQ's in the late 300's)

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I haven't posted it in this thread at all (at least to my knowledge), it's just that you need to at least research why Northern Ireland and Scotland are the way they are before even entering the debate. It's kind of silly for anyone to start debating when they don't even know the basic premises. It'd be better if you genuinely didn't know and wanted me to tell you. But if that was the case you shouldn't really start making opinions on an issue like this without knowing some of the facts.

Their EU status doesn't affect their jobs.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-jobs-and-eu/

I just disagree that when you leave a country for a certain period of time you have the right to change the laws of your home nation, even if you were to return. I just don't believe it is correct.

I don't believe while they are abroad they have the right to vote. And we won't ever convince each other so it is better to agree to disagree on this point.

They are, the source you provided only covers jobs of those working in the UK. The UK leaving the EU will make it harder for UK businesses to set up shop in other EU countries and will make it more difficult for UK expats to work in EU countries.

You might not believe it is correct, but the UK government does and as such it should have provided these UK citizens with their ballot papers.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Care to point out where I said all immigrants are biased?

I said that immigrants will tend to be more likely to vote for Remain.

And no I didn't buy into propaganda at all. Your arguments seem to be based on a lot of hot air.

Accusing me of alleging Immigrants are biased (which I clearly didn't).

And slyly suggesting I may have bought into propaganda. I could just easily say you've been shaped to believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with immigrants. But I wont because that isn't the case.

==================================================

Right I understand your first point a bit better now. I thought you meant that immigrants had the best understanding of the 2 things you mentioned so I unequivocally apologise for mistaking you there. That was entirely my fault.

Do you believe that majority of White Britons in London voted Remain because they were worried about their families from Eastern Europe perhaps not being able to get in as easier? Or that their Muslim family in Afghanistan now might find it harder to cross over from Calais because of the possible repercussions of a Brexit?

The majority of White people won't care about any of that because it doesn't affect them. But of course the people who aren't indigenous Britons will be affected. So they will vote Remain for those particular issues. Which is why such a multicultural city like London has these different statistics.

mmm

No offense friend but that seems to be your argument. But first of all let me begin by pointing out that surveys conducted in 2011 found that about 65% of London's foreign-born population originate from outside Europe. Furthermore, the majority of almost every London borough voted to Remain, including many boroughs with small ethnic populations.

And of course as you yourself pointed out, many non-indigenous Britons voted Leave, and finally, many of the kinds of people you refer to are probably not British citizens (you have to have lived in the UK for five years to qualify) in fact that majority of foreign-born people living in the UK are not. Altogether you are generalising, we are talking about a very small amount of Londoners who would have voted for such reasons.

As for why the majority of White British citizens voted Remain in referendum? Clearly partly because they didn't perceive immigration negatively, or they would have voted Leave.

P.S. I wasn't actually implying anything, merely that I don't know your reasons for voting Leave (assuming you did), maybe you have legitimate reasons against immigration, maybe its just fearmongering nonsense. On the whole however, the immigration problem faced by the UK has been overblown considerably.

Yep and we might turn around and do the same stupid shit with Hilary: not realize how horrible she is for the job and just vote her in so we can squawk about how we have a president with titts now. Meanwhile the country slips further and further into the toilet, but hey it's okay because we have a lady in the White House.

I think perhaps in a few decades we can finally get a president who is just right for the job, but first we have to make sure we fill our presidential diversity quota. We need an Asian transgender voted in next. Followed by an illegal Mexican immigrant because we've never had one of those as president either. Then since Hilary is white we also need a black female in office just to balance the scales. Then we need a homosexual president. Then we need an openly atheist president. After that maybe we can get down to business and ignore race and gender and other silly things when choosing someone.

Originally posted by Slay
I think you have a basic misunderstanding of what I was trying to say. I honestly don't even understand what you're on about anymore. I asked for your personal explanation of why NI and Scotland had a majority vote for Remain. I never expressed an opinion on why NI or Scotland voted Remain and I didn't debate anything about it. I simply asked you why you thought it was that they did.

They are, the source you provided only covers jobs of those working in the UK. The UK leaving the EU will make it harder for UK businesses to set up shop in other EU countries and will make it more difficult for UK expats to work in EU countries.

You might not believe it is correct, but the UK government does and as such it should have provided these UK citizens with their ballot papers.

Again accusing me of misunderstanding you doesn't get you anywhere. There isn't a personal opinion, there is a factual opinion. And if you don't know anything about why they are the way that they are then you need to go back to the drawing board and do some more research. If you were purely asking my my personal opinion then I apologise for misinterpreting your question.

But will you tell me the answer to the question you proposed. Because I have my opinion based on facts that are available to everyone. And it isn't a Left vs Right thing either. People on both sides know these things to be true. If you can tell me why you think the majority of them 2 countries voted for Remain then you will most likely reach the same conclusion as me.

There isn't really room for a personal opinion on that question.

Okay then, could you provide me a source that says that the jobs will be massively affected by the Brexit then please?

I don't believe it's correct. And like I said agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
>Says he's not saying immigrants are biased.
>Begins to propose reasoning for why immigrants would be biased.

mmm

No offense friend but that seems to be your argument. But first of all let me begin by pointing out that surveys conducted in 2011 found that about 65% of London's foreign-born population originate from outside Europe. Furthermore, the majority of almost every London borough voted to Remain, including many boroughs with small ethnic populations.

And of course as you yourself pointed out, many non-indigenous Britons voted Leave, and finally, many of the kinds of people you refer to are probably not British citizens (you have to have lived in the UK for five years to qualify) in fact that majority of foreign-born people living in the UK are not. Altogether you are generalising.

As for why the majority of White British citizens voted Remain in referendum? Clearly partly because they didn't perceive immigration negatively, or they would have voted Leave.

P.S. I wasn't actually implying anything, merely that I don't know your reasons for voting Leave (assuming you did), maybe you have legitimate reasons against immigration, maybe its just fearmongering nonsense. On the whole however, the immigration problem faced by the UK has been overblown considerably.

Again I didn't suggest immigrants were biased. So you doing this,

">Says he's not saying immigrants are biased.
>Begins to propose reasoning for why immigrants would be biased.

mmm"

Is pointless.

Tell me this. Do you genuinely believbe that a indigenous Briton will have any family in another country who are of the same country and religion who were born in another country. And they will cry and get worried because of them perhaps not getting into the UK?

They won't will they. Because in the case of immigrants a Lithuanian husband and wife may want to move their mother over to the UK but if we leave the EU that issue becomes a lot more complicated.

If a Syrian man who moved to the UK to work to send money back home wants to bring over his family due to the civil war causing his family a risk of death - he will worry 10x more.

Non immigrants do not have this worry at all.

So there isn't any point accusing me of saying immigrants are biased when that is the truth.

In fact a friend of mine who is Bulgarian is having this exact problem. His Grandfather wants to live in the UK but he hates the UK leaving because it will now make it harder for that to happen.

Do you genuinely believe that Dave from Hackney Wick will be worrying about the same things as immigrants. Of course not.

And I am eager to see your answer.

It hasn't been overblown considerably. In fact it's a very real problem. I'm quite shocked as a Brit you think immigration is an overblown problem to be honest.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yep and we might turn around and do the same stupid shit with Hilary: not realize how horrible she is for the job and just vote her in so we can squawk about how we have a president with titts now. Meanwhile the country slips further and further into the toilet, but hey it's okay because we have a lady in the White House.

I think perhaps in a few decades we can finally get a president who is just right for the job, but first we have to make sure we fill our presidential diversity quota. We need an Asian transgender voted in next. Followed by an illegal Mexican immigrant because we've never had one of those as president either. Then since Hilary is white we also need a black female in office just to balance the scales. Then we need a homosexual president. Then we need an openly atheist president. After that maybe we can get down to business and ignore race and gender and other silly things when choosing someone.

Yep, people think wow a female president. Never mind the role she has played in American politics.

I think you need this type of person as President so you can show the world how diverse and progressive you are.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Again I didn't suggest immigrants were biased.

So there isn't any point accusing me of saying immigrants are biased when that is the truth.

And your question is a red herring. I've already brought up multiple reasons for why most foreign-born UK citizens wouldn't be voting for these reasons, that they represent a small minority of votes who couldn't possibly be largely responsible for the turnout in London as you are suggesting. There is no point continuing this discussion if you plan to ignore this.

Furthermore whether or not non-indigenous and indigenous Britons are worrying about the same thing is irrelevant. The point is that the majority of Londoners evidently don't see immigration as a problem, otherwise they would have voted Leave.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So are immigrants biased or are they not? Lmao.

And your question is a red herring. I've already brought up multiple reasons for why most foreign-born UK citizens wouldn't be voting for these reasons, that they represent a small minority of votes who couldn't possibly be largely responsible for the turnout in London as you are suggesting. There is no point continuing this discussion if you plan to ignore this.

Furthermore whether or not non-indigenous and indigenous Britons are worrying about the same thing is irrelevant. The point is that the majority of Londoners evidently don't see immigration as a problem, otherwise they would have voted Leave.

You have again misread my point. My statement.

So there isn't any point accusing me of saying immigrants are biased when that is the truth.

Was referring to this.

Tell me this. Do you genuinely believbe that a indigenous Briton will have any family in another country who are of the same country and religion who were born in another country. And they will cry and get worried because of them perhaps not getting into the UK?

They won't will they. Because in the case of immigrants a Lithuanian husband and wife may want to move their mother over to the UK but if we leave the EU that issue becomes a lot more complicated.

If a Syrian man who moved to the UK to work to send money back home wants to bring over his family due to the civil war causing his family a risk of death - he will worry 10x more.

Non immigrants do not have this worry at all.

The truth was relating to the fact a Lithuanian family or a Syrian husband might worry about these things. I would read things more carefully in the future.

It's a red herring because you disagree with it, the common thing to do here is to agree to disagree which I am fully prepared to do (if you want to as well).

Furthermore whether or not non-indigenous and indigenous Britons are worrying about the same thing is irrelevant.

Ah that's good, weave a staement to support your view so I cannot use it against you. It is relevant. And it's only irrelevant to you because if it was relevant (which it is). Then your whole mode of argument doesn't fit. I'm sorry but it is relevant.

So I'll ask you again.

Tell me this. Do you genuinely believbe that a indigenous Briton will have any family in another country who are of the same country and religion who were born in another country. And they will cry and get worried because of them perhaps not getting into the UK?

They won't will they. Because in the case of immigrants a Lithuanian husband and wife may want to move their mother over to the UK but if we leave the EU that issue becomes a lot more complicated.

If a Syrian man who moved to the UK to work to send money back home wants to bring over his family due to the civil war causing his family a risk of death - he will worry 10x more.

Non immigrants do not have this worry at all.

So there isn't any point accusing me of saying immigrants are biased when that is the truth.

In fact a friend of mine who is Bulgarian is having this exact problem. His Grandfather wants to live in the UK but he hates the UK leaving because it will now make it harder for that to happen.

Do you genuinely believe that Dave from Hackney Wick will be worrying about the same things as immigrants. Of course not.

And I wouldn't accuse me of ignoring something either. If you disagree with me then agree to disagree. Don't go into irrelevant phrases and accuse me of ignoring you because I disagree.

I've read every single message you and Slay have posted. I debate because I am interested in other opinions. I don't read one line of a message then reply in paragraphs based on one line. I reply in paragraphs based on the whole message I have read.

I haven't accused either you or Slay of ignoring my messages. I don't see why you feel the need to do it to me. Even if I disagree with you I still like the debate. But I prefer to stick to the debate and not suggestions of someone ignoring the other because that is irrelevant to our discussion.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
You have again misread my point. My statement.

Was referring to this.

The truth was relating to the fact a Lithuanian family or a Syrian husband might worry about these things. I would read things more carefully in the future.

It's a red herring because you disagree with it, the common thing to do here is to agree to disagree which I am fully prepared to do (if you want to as well).

Ah that's good, weave a staement to support your view so I cannot use it against you. It is relevant. And it's only irrelevant to you because if it was relevant (which it is). Then your whole mode of argument doesn't fit. I'm sorry but it is relevant.

So I'll ask you again.

And I wouldn't accuse me of ignoring something either. If you disagree with me then agree to disagree. Don't go into irrelevant phrases and accuse me of ignoring you because I disagree.

I've read every single message you and Slay have posted. I debate because I am interested in other opinions. I don't read one line of a message then reply in paragraphs based on one line. I reply in paragraphs based on the whole message I have read.

I haven't accused either you or Slay of ignoring my messages. I don't see why you feel the need to do it to me. Even if I disagree with you I still like the debate. But I prefer to stick to the debate and not suggestions of someone ignoring the other because that is irrelevant to our discussion.

The reason you've failed to raise this accusation at me being because I am not guilty of it. 😬

Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK, so you are saying some immigrants are biased. Right. What's the point if represent a very small minority of voters?No it's a red herring for the reasons stated.Not, it's not relevant for the reasons stated. If you want to explain why its relevant to the discussion at hand then I'm all ears.
I couldn't care less about how you like to respond to messages friend, fact is your not acknowledging my point, and continue to do so.

The reason you've failed to raise this accusation at me being because I am not guilty of it. 😬

Yeah if you are just going to be rude to me I will consider this conversation over.

You haven't answered any of my questions and instead choose to twist my words, accuse me of ignoring you and not even caring how I would respond to a message.

I see no point continuing this any more. Good day.

Christ aren't you just precious. Rude? Lol. Pointing out logical fallacies in a persons argument and asking them to prove the relevance of their points is not rude, and if you are not mature enough to understand that you have no place debating. Good day indeed. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Christ aren't you just precious. Rude? Lol. Pointing out logical fallacies in a persons argument is not rude, and if you are not mature enough to understand that you have no place debating. Good day indeed. 🙂

Even after I politely say I will leave the debate you still continue to be rude and sarcastic. I want to debate the facts. Not insults, not being accused of ignoring etc. You never answered my questions anyway. That's something you might be a bit to young and immature to realise. In a debate it is polite to answer the questions asked.

But I can see that this isn't the case. Unless you actually wan't to answer my question or you will just continue to ignore it.

Lol alright dear I'll let you go. Have a nice day. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol alright dear I'll let you go. Have a nice day. 🙂

So you can't answer the question then?