Junker, Tusk and Rutte are finally showing cracks in their arrogant insistence that the EU didn't need reform. Merkel and Hollande both also stating that reforms might be needed to prevent any other countries leaving. Maybe if they hadn't paid lip service to British concerns in the first place they wouldn't be in this position.
The way Junker tackled a question from a UK journalist who asked whether this could mean the end of the European project and he just said "No" and stormed off stage was embarrassing.
That is the thing..the way some of the country is reacting to this vote is just exacerbating the situation. If you don't act on what the people voted for it makes them look bad. If they decide to have another vote it also makes them look bad and like they have no actual clue what they want.
The people coming out and saying "I voted to leave only because I didn't think we'd leave" are just doing even more damage.
Also if there were people who thought the EU didn't need reform then I really can't blame the UK for wanting to get out.
Originally posted by Time-ImmemorialYour two days to my 23 years and 10 months though, to be fair. I interact with Muslims daily, have done my entire life. Like I say: 95% Muslim school, less instances of violence and far less knife crime than the other neighbouring schools. I'm not saying Islam isn't dangerous; as we've all seen from the chaos in the Middle East, Islam can be used as the basis for disgusting, immoral acts that threaten everyone's safety and freedom. I also don't like how inherently homophobic and transphobic it seems to be, although I see often the same in Christianity.
I met a Syrian Refugee in Munich, and he said Islam turns good people bad, I was also downtown Paris on 11/13/16. So as you can see, we have different experiences.
I believe that religion is what you make it. There is nothing inherently wrong about Islam or Christianity, but both have been seen to cause acts of evil all across the world. Islam is younger than Christianity, for a start, so it's obviously going to be less refined. We don't need to eliminate Islam, or try to, because it is a strong cultural religion, and trying to get rid of it only makes its most fervent supporters more set in their ways. We take down the Taliban, and the even worse ISIS takes its place. It will happen again and again. We need to combat it by taking away its teeth, through acceptance.
I disagree that Islam is not compatible with Western society. Take my good Muslim friend for example; his religion disavows alcohol, smoking, homosexuality, etc., but my friend is also good friends with a lesbian girl, he has worked professionally with a gay man and got along well with him, and he comes out to the pub with us and drinks coke whilst we get sloshed. He is a great example of the son of much stricter Muslim parents – he is fully integrated. He is British, not just a British Muslim. The longer a culture has to adapt to another culture, the more they will fuse.
Now, refugees from a country that is massively strict in its application of Islam is a different situation. The issue with further immigration is that those Muslims will need generations to adapt to our culture; we already have Muslims integrating well, but when more come over who do not understand or disagree with our ways, then they will hold stances more extreme than those who have integrated. But this is also due to their own culture. Think of a lot of Africa – a lot of African countries are Christian, but there are horrific massacres all the time, Christians slaughtering Muslims, Christians slaughtering other Christians. But yet we do not blame Christianity. This is because this is a cultural issue, not a religious one. It is a matter of education, of cultural education in particular. A lot of us over in England are very nice, tolerant people, and a lot of the Muslims who live here have adapted to that, and in my eyes, are just as British as anyone else. They represent a vision of Britain that is more aligned with my own views than those disgusting individuals attacking people based on their skin colour or mode of dress.
That's my take, anyway. I hope you realise I have thought this through long and hard. I have never been a big fan of Islam, but that doesn't stop me from approaching the situation from a rational and humanitarian point of view.
Originally posted by FinalAnswerYou wouldn't enjoy the luxury of coffee and sugar had it not been for the British empire. The partition of India increased trade with more products we enjoy. IPA, for example. The Irish had a choice, Church of England or starve. Much like how the Indians starved themselves because they couldn't figure out how to exploit their resources. It wasn't Britains fault...
http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/women-children-white-concentration-camps-during-anglo-boer-war-1900-1902Lol, by their very nature, there isn't a single empire in history that isn't immoral by modern standards. Go on, explain away how colonialism, starving millions of Bengalese to death, the partition of India and Pakistan over lunch, the treatment of the Irish, and massacring protestors against their rule as moral behaviour.
Also, I wasn't aware that the British invented sugar or coffee.
Originally posted by It's xyz!Have you read the Old Testament? It's violent, disgusting shit, and its main message is "Submit to God, or be destroyed." However, there are lots of lovely, caring Christians, who despite all of the nasty, ugly stuff contained in their holy book, somehow got the one ultimate message it was putting across: "Love thy neighbour."
I live with an Iranian immigrant Christian and he says he read the Quran. He says it's disgusting violent shit.
My Muslim friend has read the Koran extensively, and explained to me that much like how the Bible is misinterpreted/has specific passages quoted out of context (by both those within the religion and those who oppose it), the Koran is much the same. Yes, there is a lot of violence and brutality within its pages, and the story it has to tell is often a savage one, but ultimately, a good Muslim does not judge his neighbour, a good Muslim does not force his beliefs upon his neighbour, and a good Muslim is not violent, and certainly doesn't kill.
Well, the problem I'm having is your Muslim friend grew up in England, which supports those western values. Sounds like a westerner who believes in western values as opposed to the values of Turkey, Syria and Saudi Arabia etc. I have no problem with members of the Muslim faith in a western country, Ramadan is pretty sick, but I do have a problem with radical extremists, terrorists and Muslim countries that don't adhere to western values.
Kuwait and UAE are pretty dope, and they refused refugees.
Originally posted by Scribble
Have you read the Old Testament? It's violent, disgusting shit, and its main message is "Submit to God, or be destroyed." However, there are lots of lovely, caring Christians, who despite all of the nasty, ugly stuff contained in their holy book, somehow got the one ultimate message it was putting across: "Love thy neighbour."My Muslim friend has read the Koran extensively, and explained to me that much like how the Bible is misinterpreted/has specific passages quoted out of context (by both those within the religion and those who oppose it), the Koran is much the same. Yes, there is a lot of violence and brutality within its pages, and the story it has to tell is often a savage one, but ultimately, a good Muslim does not judge his neighbour, a good Muslim does not force his beliefs upon his neighbour, and a good Muslim is not violent, and certainly doesn't kill.
Originally posted by It's xyz!Then we mostly agree. See my comment in my last long post. Did you even read it?
Well, the problem I'm having is your Muslim friend grew up in England, which supports those western values. Sounds like a westerner who believes in western values as opposed to the values of Turkey, Syria and Saudi Arabia etc. I have no problem with members of the Muslim faith in a western country, Ramadan is pretty sick, but I do have a problem with radical extremists, terrorists and Muslim countries that don't adhere to western values.Kuwait and UAE are pretty dope, and they refused refugees.
"Now, refugees from a country that is massively strict in its application of Islam is a different situation. The issue with further immigration is that those Muslims will need generations to adapt to our culture; we already have Muslims integrating well, but when more come over who do not understand or disagree with our ways, then they will hold stances more extreme than those who have integrated."
I also generally agree with stricter immigration rules, for varying reasons. The migrant crisis was exactly what it was called, a crisis. When people are being oppressed and killed, it's hard as a humanitarian to refuse help, but with a complex situation such as this, there has to be a limit to who you let into the country and how many you take. But I don't think that the reprehensible acts of a minority of refugees should make you tar and entire 'people' with the same brush. Integrated Muslims should not have to suffer for the acts of people from an entirely different culture to their own.
Anyway, my main point was how disgusted I am at the Brexit vote giving nasty, small-minded people the idea that they can bring active racism into our streets. We are meant to be one people, not bound by skin colour. The Brexit vote is not a free card to be a piece of shit, despite what a number of people on both the Remain and Leave sides think. If we are our own independent nation and culture, then anyone that is a part of that belongs here. We have to stand up for the British Muslims when they are treated like this.
Fun fact: There were even British Muslims who voted Leave.
Originally posted by ScribbleIslam in general, is not good for society, but terrorism is worse. You can't equate these two issues. Pulling out of Iraq for political reasons and funding Syrian Rebels has caused a huge shitty situation and the area needs severe occupation, imo. We agree that the mass immigration crisis caused rape and terrorism, we agree stricter immigration is good. This isn't even a Muslim issue.
I also generally agree with stricter immigration rules, for varying reasons. The migrant crisis was exactly what it was called, a crisis. When people are being oppressed and killed, it's hard as a humanitarian to refuse help, but with a complex situation such as this, there has to be a limit to who you let into the country and how many you take. But I don't think that the reprehensible acts of a minority of refugees should make you tar and entire 'people' with the same brush. Integrated Muslims should not have to suffer for the acts of people from an entirely different culture to their own.Anyway, my main point was how disgusted I am at the Brexit vote giving nasty, small-minded people the idea that they can bring active racism into our streets. We are meant to be one people, not bound by skin colour. The Brexit vote is not a free card to be a piece of shit, despite what a number of people on both the Remain and Leave sides think. If we are our own independent nation and culture, then anyone that is a part of that belongs here. We have to stand up for the British Muslims when they are treated like this.
Fun fact: There were even British Muslims who voted Leave.
British Muslims should and do speak up. The issue is not racist jokes. The issue is the media portraying white people as ignorant thick racists and brown people as violent barbarians. I find leavers thinking Brexit would get rid of Pakistanis and remainers hating lower class white people. But this is just media hype and TV watchers jumping on bandwagons. Both sides were shit, but I'm glad the EU aren't deciding our laws. That was my main issue.
Originally posted by It's xyz!
You wouldn't enjoy the luxury of coffee and sugar had it not been for the British empire. The partition of India increased trade with more products we enjoy. IPA, for example. The Irish had a choice, Church of England or starve. Much like how the Indians starved themselves because they couldn't figure out how to exploit their resources. It wasn't Britains fault...
You wouldn't enjoy the benefits of civilization if not for the Roman Empire, that doesn't change the fact they were immoral. Although the trade of those goods existed long before the British Empire, so I'm not sure why you think Britain is solely responsible for the spread of them.
Yes, it sure ****ing was Britain's fault you ****ing assclown. It's Britain's fault when India was undergoing a drought, and not only did it fail to grow what meager food it could after Britain forced it to grow cash crops, it diverted food meant for the starving Indians to soldiers, then further refused Canadian and American offers of aid. Millions of deaths, as a direct result of British policy. As I understand it, freedom of religion is also regarded today as a universal right, I suppose you'd say that the Romans were justified in killing millions of Jews and kicking them out of their homeland for failing to comply with their religious policies, right?
Originally posted by Scribble
Your two days to my 23 years and 10 months though, to be fair. I interact with Muslims daily, have done my entire life. Like I say: 95% Muslim school, less instances of violence and far less knife crime than the other neighbouring schools. I'm not saying Islam isn't dangerous; as we've all seen from the chaos in the Middle East, Islam can be used as the basis for disgusting, immoral acts that threaten everyone's safety and freedom. I also don't like how inherently homophobic and transphobic it seems to be, although I see often the same in Christianity.I believe that religion is what you make it. There is nothing inherently wrong about Islam or Christianity, but both have been seen to cause acts of evil all across the world. Islam is younger than Christianity, for a start, so it's obviously going to be less refined. We don't need to eliminate Islam, or try to, because it is a strong cultural religion, and trying to get rid of it only makes its most fervent supporters more set in their ways. We take down the Taliban, and the even worse ISIS takes its place. It will happen again and again. We need to combat it by taking away its teeth, through acceptance.
I disagree that Islam is not compatible with Western society. Take my good Muslim friend for example; his religion disavows alcohol, smoking, homosexuality, etc., but my friend is also good friends with a lesbian girl, he has worked professionally with a gay man and got along well with him, and he comes out to the pub with us and drinks coke whilst we get sloshed. He is a great example of the son of much stricter Muslim parents – he is fully integrated. He is British, not just a British Muslim. The longer a culture has to adapt to another culture, the more they will fuse.
Now, refugees from a country that is massively strict in its application of Islam is a different situation. The issue with further immigration is that those Muslims will need generations to adapt to our culture; we already have Muslims integrating well, but when more come over who do not understand or disagree with our ways, then they will hold stances more extreme than those who have integrated. But this is also due to their own culture. Think of a lot of Africa – a lot of African countries are Christian, but there are horrific massacres all the time, Christians slaughtering Muslims, Christians slaughtering other Christians. But yet we do not blame Christianity. This is because this is a cultural issue, not a religious one. It is a matter of education, of cultural education in particular. A lot of us over in England are very nice, tolerant people, and a lot of the Muslims who live here have adapted to that, and in my eyes, are just as British as anyone else. They represent a vision of Britain that is more aligned with my own views than those disgusting individuals attacking people based on their skin colour or mode of dress.
That's my take, anyway. I hope you realise I have thought this through long and hard. I have never been a big fan of Islam, but that doesn't stop me from approaching the situation from a rational and humanitarian point of view.
I spent 2 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, where are you drawing this 2 days crap from?
Originally posted by FinalAnswerI enjoy what the Roman Empire did because I like milk amongst other things... The British and Roman Empire made those things very available to the masses and I'm grateful.
You wouldn't enjoy the benefits of civilization if not for the Roman Empire, that doesn't change the fact they were immoral. Although the trade of those goods existed long before the British Empire, so I'm not sure why you think Britain is solely responsible for the spread of them.Yes, it sure ****ing was Britain's fault you ****ing assclown. It's Britain's fault when India was undergoing a drought, and not only did it fail to grow what meager food it could after Britain forced it to grow cash crops, it diverted food meant for the starving Indians to soldiers, then further refused Canadian and American offers of aid. Millions of deaths, as a direct result of British policy. As I understand it, freedom of religion is also regarded today as a universal right, I suppose you'd say that the Romans were justified in killing millions of Jews and kicking them out of their homeland for failing to comply with their religious policies, right?
No, the Indians overpopulated and there were too many to handle. If you don't comply with the laws of your masters, you suffer the consequences. This is throughout history.
No, the Indians starved to death because Britain forced them to grow shit like indigo instead of food, and because Winston Churchill quite literally said, "Who cares, they breed like rabbits anyway." None of that shit you said makes any ****ing sense anyway. I guess slavery was justified, and murdering them for dissent as well.
Stop ad hominem my words. Churchill said they bred like rabbits and didn't understand the consequences. Britain was trying to help them use their resources and they decided to breed and starve instead. Once Britian left the country or region, everything got worse.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
No, the Indians starved to death because Britain forced them to grow shit like indigo instead of food, and because Winston Churchill quite literally said, "Who cares, they breed like rabbits anyway." None of that shit you said makes any ****ing sense anyway. I guess slavery was justified, and murdering them for dissent as well.