Ellimist for the purposes of our future battlezone we will go over the specifics of the distance of the battlefield and the planets and their locations so we are on the same page. Movie is out next month but this won't commence until it's DVD release and the YouTube clips are available but I like to plan ahead.
Originally posted by quanchi112The force aided the ships blast. Luke still needed help from Han so don't downplay the others who died or Han's involvement freeing Luke up from Vader. Hyperbole. Destroying the Death Star isn't physically impossible without the force so don't go there.
Except it was...
Red Leader was on target according to the targeting computer and guess what? The torpedoes didn't go in.
Luke was going to do the same, yet Ben told him to use The Force, implying that the targeting computer was wrong.
In the mission briefing prior.
"The exhaust port is only 2 meters wide."
"That's impossible, even for a computer."
Which is backed up by the fact, guess what? The targeting computers were clearly ineffective.
Originally posted by ZenwolfI just said in that situation Luke needed the force but that isn't the only manner in which a Death Star can destroyed as we later see. Luke doesn't fire the shot if Han doesn't take Vader out. So he needed the force and aid to pull it off but he didn't face much resistance outside a handful of ships.
Except it was...Red Leader was on target according to the targeting computer and guess what? The torpedoes didn't go in.
Luke was going to do the same, yet Ben told him to use The Force, implying that the targeting computer was wrong.
In the mission briefing prior.
"The exhaust port is only 2 meters wide."
"That's impossible, even for a computer."
Which is backed up by the fact, guess what? The targeting computers were clearly ineffective.
Star Wars targeting systems were ineffective in that situation. That's all. Wars computers aren't Trek computers. 🙂
Originally posted by Chosen_SithWell it also shows earth can me will defend itself and despite the power and fears of the Narada Nero felt it necessary. That holds weight.
Pretty much. It didn't make much sense, it was there for the drama and excuse to torture Pike."Border protection grids were security systems utilized by the United Federation of Planets to protect individual member worlds. Each grid utilized specific subspace frequencies which, if known, could be used to bypass the grid." Given the previous dialog it does seem like he's talking about the frequencies and the transmission. Truth be told in the other Star Trek mediums there's never been any evidence that there is some shielding on earth. This is true given the number of times earth was threatened or some large bodies (such as ships) have collided into it with no visible effect.
The problem you have here in this debate stems from the fact that most people here don't know Star Trek well. I actually do. I can argue via lore examples. The problem that you have is that I don't care to because while you refuse to accept it Star Trek stops at "Empire's ships have more flexibility and mobility via their warp drive." Your best argument against the Empire is "Empire incompetence." but this isn't a battle on whether the Empire is incompetent or not but in a battle of who has the best tech? Properly utilized Star Wars wins here.
Oh, for the record. I like Star Trek as much as Star Wars but in the end we're talking about one Science Fiction franchise which is more grounded in reality (as much as it can be there are elements that make this not quite true which annoys me) versus a High Sci Fi Fantasy with Space Wizards.
Well the USS Vengeance since it was a Starfleet militarized ship would have had access to the codes. Either way whether its defenses or shields it poses a threat or a countermeasure to anyone attacking the planet.
This has turned into a mini debate based on a war between the two universes. This is better tech overall not just faster travel tech. Transporting is still faster than light speed anyways.
🙂
Yes, Wars has more fantasy elements but both universes are still comparable and both have their own strengths and weaknesses. Wars doesn't progress well at all and seems stuck in the same kind of advancements from what we've seen.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I just said in that situation Luke needed the force but that isn't the only manner in which a Death Star can destroyed as we later see. Luke doesn't fire the shot if Han doesn't take Vader out. So he needed the force and aid to pull it off but he didn't face much resistance outside a handful of ships.Star Wars targeting systems were ineffective in that situation. That's all. Wars computers aren't Trek computers. 🙂
Later see? The 2nd Death Star wasn't complete, so of course it would be easier to destroy.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I claimed red matter would take out Starkiller. Starkiller needs time and stars to function. You ignore this critical details high gave the rebels time to strike and negate this overrated base. A few guys showed up and did what was necessary to weaken it for Poe to critically damage it. Transporting is also an option for Trek.
Transporting is not an option for Star Trek, since - gosh - they time and time again fail to beam through enemy shields. Starkiller Base has shields. Result: Utter failure.
So a hundred light years away isn't across the galaxy ? Based off what ?
Based off the fact that Galaxy is 100,000 lightyears in diameter for example. 🙄
I give you an example and you ignore it.
No. I tell you why it won't work, you keep bringing it up again like a broken record.
Their shields aren't impenetrable in any way, shape, or form.
Their shields are impenetrable in the way that they can absorb uncanny amounts of energy. Which is kind of a problem, if you want to put an energy beam through them that transports the information to rematerialize individuals within the aforementioned shielding. Which wouldn't work anyway, given the limitations of the technology mentioned above.
And red matter is useless because you say so. Facts and arguments matter not you just stating yeah it is useless without proving it.
I've told you already, why it is useless: It doesn't work as you want it to work. It doesn't destroy ships, which just fly through it and end up somewhere in the past. With the Enterprise actually escaping it, which leads to the question why SW ships (being far more durable and far faster than the Enterprise) wouldn't be able to do so. *shrug*
A personal attack isn't debating or an actual point so please relax. I hate when posters get so emotional they lash out. Control yourself it's rather embarrassing seeing you flame your way out of a losing cause.
Emotional? I'm just insulting you for personal entertainment. That's what laughing stocks are there for. Still not capable of coping with your position on the boards here, Quanchimon?
This is all tech and hundreds of years in the future not just stuck in the NuTrek films. Hell, they can use time travel you nitwit. The Borg are here, kiddo. Star Wars isn't the most prepared place or advanced. It's just big guns, same old tie fighters, destroyers. Trek can time travel, adapt, assimilate, take out super novas, reform nebulas, etc. they are obviously going to target their big weapons. Federation, Borg, Klinon Empire, Romulans, Augments, etc. all work together and in Trek when this occurs it's something awesome.
Who cares?
I mean, seriously: There are parts of technology that Star Wars doesn't have within the movies and Star Trek has. Time-travel would be a good example. The point is: You always act as if it was somehow "useable" in a controlled fashion, where it just serves as plot device within the movie. Red matter can create a "black hole" that sucks energy from a supernova in - yet the same black hole can't destroy two ships? Time-travel happens either accidentally or completely backfires and is virtually useless when it comes to archiving anything - the exception being to correct things that were changed by other time-travelers. Assimilation doesn't work, because that would require close contact that the Borg wouldn't be able to get, because they can't adapt to SW weaponary (which is charged plasma being hurled at targets and the Borg have yet to "assimilate to explosions in their faces"😉.
Do you get the point?
Based off what is Star Wars superior to Star Trek ? I get they so war well but they don't progress well. Star Trek progresses well. We see the upgrade in a combat ship from the Enterprise to the Vengeance. Three times the speed and twice the size manned by one man if need be. That's a vast improvement.
You're still not getting the point.
You parade around the Vengeance as super high-tech, while you don't grasp the fact, that it is a toy compared to SW combat technology. When it comes to firepower and speed, a single SW starfighter is superior to the Vengeance ("big guns"😉. It wouldn't survive the confrontation (because it lacks strong shielding) but it could take the Vengeance down. The Narada, easily capable of destroying entire Federation fleets, doesn't even register next to something like the Death Star.
And talking about the Death Star: You complain about Star Wars just "building bigger guns", and then you site a ship that is just bigger than its earlier counterpart. 😂 Following that logic, you should be rather impressed by the fact, that within three years, the Empire moved from DS 1 construction to assembling a significant part of DS 2 having almost 6 times the diameter of DS 1.
And in everyday life? Each and every halfway decent person in the SW universe can technically own a starship that puts Star Trek military ships to shame in terms of travel speed, weaponry and shields. They have building materials that have allowed them to turn Coruscant into an Ecumenopolis, a city covering a planet with kilometer high structures. A 10-year-old Anakin Skywalker was capable of constructing C-3PO, who is pretty much a working A.I. even capable of feeling emotions (mostly fear). The latter apparently applying to most droids in SW. In that regard 10-year-old Anakin Skywalker > Noonian Soong. And while I’m already talking about droids: The grade of automation SW has reached compared to ST is also significant. They have droids handling jobs from garbage disposition up to medical service, and the latter is so effective that someone suffering from the wounds Anakin sustained in Revenge of the Sith (three limbs removed, skin burned off, heavy damage to lungs) is back up and walking two days after the incident.
What Star Wars lacks in comparison to Star Trek is, essentially, an explanation for the technical things they do (labeled "technobabble" in Trek). That doesn’t make their tech less impressive, if you start to think about what they do with it. And especially in terms of space travel, even movie Star Wars has a 25,000 year time-advantage over almost all species present in the Star Trek movie universe. So, it’s quite logical that they are way more advanced than them.
No, the rebels don't have any tech comparable to the empire. They had nothing to rival the Death Star or the Star Killer base.
Because they don’t have the Empire’s resources. They are still operating on the same general tech level in terms of combat technology. Star Trek is not. Not even remotely.
Are you kidding me ? The USS Vengeance would maul any destroyer or super destroyer which has the combat maneuverability of a snail. How many men need to man that and how slow is that maneuverability wise ? You saying they can't make it throu the shielding is laughable since you haven't proven a damn thing. Is your crazy wishful thinking rant over ? The MF can evade the Star Wars ships without Han even piloting but fixing his crappy ship. The Narada would maul these ships like a knife through butter. They will also have thousands of smaller ships wrecking shop all around.
And again: You're totally missing the point. Stardestroyers don’t need maneuverability, because they are essentially flying cities powered up by artificial stars and carry their name for a reason: They have enough firepower to reduce a planets surface to molten slag – each and every one of them. And shielding to match that kind of firepower. So the Vengeance can fly circles around them (also not true, as we can see below), but can neither damage them nor would it survive a single volley from a Stardestroyer. So who
"wins" here?
That was one way to breach the shields not the only way. Do you feel a black hole can't destroy those shields ? Serious question. Han was baffled when another noob Rey fixed his ship despite years of manning that craft. Borg version of Han.
Yeah. You could also bring enough firepower to breach planetary shielding. I’m not sure that the entirety of Star Trek would be enough to do the job. Not before getting obliterated anyway, which is entirely irrelevant, as it would never reach Starkiller Base in the first place. And so in order to get to Starkiller Base, they first need to capture and assimilate Han Solo, who has the fastest ship in the Galaxy and unparalleled piloting skills to match it? 😂
1). It was not impossible it happened. I didn't see much of a defense from the tie fighters to ward off the rebel attacks. How many ships came to its defense ?
It happened, because Luke Skywalker, using the Force, first avoided getting shot down by Vader, got rescued by Han and then managed to fire two torpedos into a 2x2 meter target. You do realize, that anything bigger than a Starfighter would be obliterated by the Death Stars defense turrets (which is why they consider a regular attack “suicidal” and send fighters in the first place). So it is “impossible”, unless you have a Force user capable of reproducing Luke’s feat.
2) Han's escape iirc while fixing his pile of shit ship.
3) yes, their leader is an idiot which doesn't help matters. He provided the opportunity to be beaten by an inferior force.
An idiot who just conquered the Galaxy, which makes him more competent than anybody Star Trek has to offer. But then: He was dealing with unforeseeable circumstances. Namely: Vader betraying him and Rebel commando’s hijacking an AT-ST from his troops, which was the deciding factor for the ground battle to go wrong.
Red matter, Narada, USS Vengeance, Borg Cube, Genesis, Vger, etc.
Yeah. All of that still doesn’t matter in the grant scheme of things. And you are, once more, just posting some list of random things in the ST universe without even trying to make a point. They are there. So what?
How won't combat speed be realized ? Once they leave light speed they are susceptible to attack and that's the speed in which they are engaged in combat. Wars may flee at light speed but that's what they do well. Flee from Trek. Once they engage they are going to get torn through. Trek ships in combat>>>Wars ships. Faster combat maneuverable wise and more impressive on screen.
Yeah. Right. 😂
There we see their great “combat speed” and “combat maneuverability” in action. Notice: Totally failing to do anything against the Borg cube which just sits there, not moving at all, and happily destroys their entire fleet. This is pretty much, what a battle between them and a Stardestroyer would look like. Just with a different result.
Transports to system and red matters it. Done. Transports is faster than light travel, dumb dumb.
Transporting doesn’t work through shields. Dumb dumb. Transporting doesn’t work near high-energy pulses, which is what the shields of Starkiller Base are. Dumb dumb. And, of course, the Red Matter probably won’t do significant damage anyway. Dumb dumb.
I haven't Even gotten into the size of Vger.
About two astonomic units with one of them being the size of Earths radius? Will be destroyed by a single hit from Starkiller Base.
Trek decimates the Wars ships in combat. They don't move anywhere near close to light speed in combat. Warp speed is far faster than their combat speed.
Neither do Trek ships when engaging ships in combat that don’t move at that aforementioned speed, as seen in the video above. Thanks for ignoring this, Quanchimon.
I do realize they can transport far faster than these beams can travel and once they'd fire this weapon once they'd have to drain another star which takes a considerable amount of time. They only managed to take out five targets before their super weapon was destroyed mainly by the help of a geriatric and a custodial stormtrooper.
Yes. Keyword being: Another star. When Trek doesn’t have the technology to monitor what happens a few lightyears away. So how would they ever locate Starkiller Base in an entire Galaxy full of stars once it vanishes from the location of aforementioned first shot? And they still can’t beam people to the base.
It didn't show the power of a super nova did it ? It's multi planetary destroying but the red matter destroyed an actual super nova. Super nova >>>planet.
By your logic, the supernova did just destroy one planet, far slower than one hit from Starkiller base did. The “nerd numbers” you have rejected out of hand show how powerful Starkiller Base must be in order to do what it does. And it would have enough firepower to destroy millions of planets at once.
They were transported back in time thus eliminating them from this matchup either way. They are gone for good either way from that time period.
Yeah. The problem is, that even the entirety of the Red Matter used doesn’t create a black hole large enough to consume Starkiller Base or a Death Star. And you’ve also ignored the very likely possibility, that they could just escape it, since they can travel far faster than Star Trek.
You posted in the challenge thread Ellimist accepted. You wanted to neuter Star Trek and forget the third film which is going to bolster the numbers I need to crush the OT in glorious fashion.
*yawn*
You are still not a challenge for me, Quanchimon. You’re cheap entertainment.
Originally posted by NaiI didn't say transporting past the shields I meant transporting weaponry, bombs, torpedoes to weaken the shields could be employed. Quit ignoring the methods Trek has at its disposal here.
Transporting is not an option for Star Trek, since - gosh - they time and time again fail to beam through enemy shields. Starkiller Base has shields. Result: Utter failure.Based off the fact that Galaxy is 100,000 lightyears in diameter for example. 🙄
No. I tell you why it won't work, you keep bringing it up again like a broken record.
Their shields are impenetrable in the way that they can absorb uncanny amounts of energy. Which is kind of a problem, if you want to put an energy beam through them that transports the information to rematerialize individuals within the aforementioned shielding. Which wouldn't work anyway, given the limitations of the technology mentioned above.
I've told you already, why it is useless: It doesn't work as you want it to work. It doesn't destroy ships, which just fly through it and end up somewhere in the past. With the Enterprise actually escaping it, which leads to the question why SW ships (being far more durable and far faster than the Enterprise) wouldn't be able to do so. *shrug*
Emotional? I'm just insulting you for personal entertainment. That's what laughing stocks are there for. Still not capable of coping with your position on the boards here, Quanchimon?
Who cares?
I mean, seriously: There are parts of technology that Star Wars doesn't have within the movies and Star Trek has. Time-travel would be a good example. The point is: You always act as if it was somehow "useable" in a controlled fashion, where it just serves as plot device within the movie. Red matter can create a "black hole" that sucks energy from a supernova in - yet the same black hole can't destroy two ships? Time-travel happens either accidentally or completely backfires and is virtually useless when it comes to archiving anything - the exception being to correct things that were changed by other time-travelers. Assimilation doesn't work, because that would require close contact that the Borg wouldn't be able to get, because they can't adapt to SW weaponary (which is charged plasma being hurled at targets and the Borg have yet to "assimilate to explosions in their faces"😉.
Do you get the point?
You're still not getting the point.
You parade around the Vengeance as super high-tech, while you don't grasp the fact, that it is a toy compared to SW combat technology. When it comes to firepower and speed, a single SW starfighter is superior to the Vengeance ("big guns"😉. It wouldn't survive the confrontation (because it lacks strong shielding) but it could take the Vengeance down. The Narada, easily capable of destroying entire Federation fleets, doesn't even register next to something like the Death Star.
And talking about the Death Star: You complain about Star Wars just "building bigger guns", and then you site a ship that is just bigger than its earlier counterpart. 😂 Following that logic, you should be rather impressed by the fact, that within three years, the Empire moved from DS 1 construction to assembling a significant part of DS 2 having almost 6 times the diameter of DS 1.
And in everyday life? Each and every halfway decent person in the SW universe can technically own a starship that puts Star Trek military ships to shame in terms of travel speed, weaponry and shields. They have building materials that have allowed them to turn Coruscant into an Ecumenopolis, a city covering a planet with kilometer high structures. A 10-year-old Anakin Skywalker was capable of constructing C-3PO, who is pretty much a working A.I. even capable of feeling emotions (mostly fear). The latter apparently applying to most droids in SW. In that regard 10-year-old Anakin Skywalker > Noonian Soong. And while I’m already talking about droids: The grade of automation SW has reached compared to ST is also significant. They have droids handling jobs from garbage disposition up to medical service, and the latter is so effective that someone suffering from the wounds Anakin sustained in Revenge of the Sith (three limbs removed, skin burned off, heavy damage to lungs) is back up and walking two days after the incident.
What Star Wars lacks in comparison to Star Trek is, essentially, an explanation for the technical things they do (labeled "technobabble" in Trek). That doesn’t make their tech less impressive, if you start to think about what they do with it. And especially in terms of space travel, even movie Star Wars has a 25,000 year time-advantage over almost all species present in the Star Trek movie universe. So, it’s quite logical that they are way more advanced than them.
Because they don’t have the Empire’s resources. They are still operating on the same general tech level in terms of combat technology. Star Trek is not. Not even remotely.
And again: You're totally missing the point. Stardestroyers don’t need maneuverability, because they are essentially flying cities powered up by artificial stars and carry their name for a reason: They have enough firepower to reduce a planets surface to molten slag – each and every one of them. And shielding to match that kind of firepower. So the Vengeance can fly circles around them (also not true, as we can see below), but can neither damage them nor would it survive a single volley from a Stardestroyer. So who
"wins" here?Yeah. You could also bring enough firepower to breach planetary shielding. I’m not sure that the entirety of Star Trek would be enough to do the job. Not before getting obliterated anyway, which is entirely irrelevant, as it would never reach Starkiller Base in the first place. And so in order to get to Starkiller Base, they first need to capture and assimilate Han Solo, who has the fastest ship in the Galaxy and unparalleled piloting skills to match it? 😂
That doesn't mean you have to be from the farthest and that isn't how it works. If you feel transporting has geographical limitations then prove it.
You didn't prove it but continue to just restate it like it means something.
They can weaken the shields with phasers, torpedoes, etc.
It destroys sure novas and the two ships we see that it pulled in were lost in time so as far as this thread goes they are bfrd into submission. The red matter wasn't used on the enterprise it just managed to get away. That's a problem since the red matter will be deployed on the specific target. Quit with your baseless claims of being more durable and what not. Prove it.
I am not fazed by your flaming which leads me to believe you don't strongly believe in your position since you'd rather. Flame to patch up your shotty argument.
It acted as a worm hole so it is what it is and in any event if Star Wars ships get pulled through they are done as far as this thread goes. Star Wars ships don't need to be destroyed to get rid of them for the purposes of this thread. The Borg don't need to assimilate to explosions just the frequencies of the standard weapons they use to give them the advantage. Stormtroopers guns failing to even stun them. The Borg also can assimilate Star Wars characters and ships. Time travel doesn't backfire so please quit with the nonsense. Just because the bad guys lose which they do in trek that doesn't mean time travel inherently always backfires. I've seen Star Wars blasters fail to explode various foes so please quit acting like their weapons are too potent to assimilate based off nothing concrete just shotty wishful thinking.
Prove a single Star Wars fighter is superior to the Vengeance. Your empty claims of it being more powerful isn't backed by anything in the films. The vengeance and its power and speed was shown via the film. The same can't be said of the star fighters portrayal in the films. The Narada doesn't need to take down the Death Star nor did I claim it would. Trek has weapons that can reform the entire nebula.
False. The vengeance was more powerful, three times the speed and twice the size as well as able to being manned by one man. That's a vast improvement and yet Star Wars doesn't have that sig ificsntly of a upgrade as the Vengeance had over the Enterprise.
c3Po isn't anything comparable to the ship Vengeance. This is about ear not some ditzy robot you claim is awesome. Pull your head out of your as and give Singh the credit he's due. Oh please Data makes c3po look like a chump in comparison. Yes, that's all nice and dandy but Trek has holodecks.
No, it isn't quite logical as Star Wars doesn't have to make sense and logically add up. Why are these idiots still using laser swords ? It doesn't make any sense so please leave logic near the force. Trek progresses as I said and improves over itself whereas wars does at a much slower rate in certain areas while minimally to next to nothing in other areas.
No, they aren't as they don't have Death Stars or anything comparable to the star destroyers. Trek is on another level due to their resources and ships like Narada, Vengeance, Vger, or the Borg cube.
Did you miss how the super star destroyer city and all went down as easily as it did by the rebels in Rotj ? What showings do they have of reducing a plant to slag. Show me something or allude to something in the film. Relying on hyperbole is a very desperate tactic. Why can't the vengeance survive a volley from the star destroyer ?
Han Solo has been captured before and he's overrated. Hell, the imperial forces failed despite him fixing his ship. Red matter or a black hole is above planetary shielding. You're not sure of a lot of things sounds like a personal problem. Galactic forces with transportation can't catch Han Solo ? Oh please.
Originally posted by NaiSo you haven't seen the size of Krall's ships from the latest Star Trek flick ? Sucks to be you.
It happened, because Luke Skywalker, using the Force, first avoided getting shot down by Vader, got rescued by Han and then managed to fire two torpedos into a 2x2 meter target. You do realize, that anything bigger than a Starfighter would be obliterated by the Death Stars defense turrets (which is why they consider a regular attack “suicidal” and send fighters in the first place). So it is “impossible”, unless you have a Force user capable of reproducing Luke’s feat.What does that have to do with technology at all? It’s Han’s unique skills as pilot that make him “escape” the Empire in ESB. With that “escape” actually ending with him frozen into a carbonite block.
An idiot who just conquered the Galaxy, which makes him more competent than anybody Star Trek has to offer. But then: He was dealing with unforeseeable circumstances. Namely: Vader betraying him and Rebel commando’s hijacking an AT-ST from his troops, which was the deciding factor for the ground battle to go wrong.
Yeah. All of that still doesn’t matter in the grant scheme of things. And you are, once more, just posting some list of random things in the ST universe without even trying to make a point. They are there. So what?
Yeah. Right. 😂
There we see their great “combat speed” and “combat maneuverability” in action. Notice: Totally failing to do anything against the Borg cube which just sits there, not moving at all, and happily destroys their entire fleet. This is pretty much, what a battle between them and a Stardestroyer would look like. Just with a different result.
Transporting doesn’t work through shields. Dumb dumb. Transporting doesn’t work near high-energy pulses, which is what the shields of Starkiller Base are. Dumb dumb. And, of course, the Red Matter probably won’t do significant damage anyway. Dumb dumb.
About two astonomic units with one of them being the size of Earths radius? Will be destroyed by a single hit from Starkiller Base.
Neither do Trek ships when engaging ships in combat that don’t move at that aforementioned speed, as seen in the video above. Thanks for ignoring this, Quanchimon.
Yes. Keyword being: Another star. When Trek doesn’t have the technology to monitor what happens a few lightyears away. So how would they ever locate Starkiller Base in an entire Galaxy full of stars once it vanishes from the location of aforementioned first shot? And they still can’t beam people to the base.
By your logic, the supernova did just destroy one planet, far slower than one hit from Starkiller base did. The “nerd numbers” you have rejected out of hand show how powerful Starkiller Base must be in order to do what it does. And it would have enough firepower to destroy millions of planets at once.
Yeah. The problem is, that even the entirety of the Red Matter used doesn’t create a black hole large enough to consume Starkiller Base or a Death Star. And you’ve also ignored the very likely possibility, that they could just escape it, since they can travel far faster than Star Trek.
*yawn*
You are still not a challenge for me, Quanchimon. You’re cheap entertainment.
It isn't impossible you could black hole it into oblivion or another time.
It has to do with his tech not working and without him as a pilot but still being able to evade the inept imperial forces. He was tricked and outplayed by Vader due to getting to Lando first and shoestringing him. Also shows the tech can easily malfunction.
Due to manipulating the dimwits from the Star Wars universe. Sheer stupidity as they cheered while their civil liberties were dying. The majority of Star Wars being weak and easily controlled isn't something to applaud. He already knew Vader was his father. He already worried about this but foolishly dropped his guard completely like an idiot. He didn't need to take these risks for Luke someone he wasn't able to corrupt. He failed on multiple levels to lose his huge advantage and ultimately the war.
It's a list of potent weapons forces all of which Star Wars has to deal with. The majority of the Star Wars imperial forces are inept and easily tricked. The list I made makes your list of imperial forces and weapons look inferior by direct comparison.
Thanks for proving that with this clip. I can post an imperial ship failing to destroy the MF and then we can compare to the Borg cube against its opposition.
They ended up destroying the cube. You are also ignoring the combat speed of the frontier ships, the USS vengeance as well. Did the stardestroyer destroy the MF ?
They don't have to get past the shields but instead black hole the shields. They can transport near the starkiller base, dumb dumb. Why won't the red matter do significant damage ? Supernova, planet, gigantic ships so please prove it wouldn't do damage to these easily destroyed bases.
Red matter. Starkiller is gone. Or the Borg could invade and assimilate. Vengeance in combat was at three times warp which is far faster than any wars ship in combat. Your tears taste wonderful.
Trek has multiple forces here so please quit acting like they can't monitor this light years away. Acting as if they won't know the location of this mega base is unfounded. Did the rebels not know where the base was ?They can beam people near the base.
It destroyed it so speed of destruction is irrelevant. It didn't need multi blasts to destroy more than one target. A super nova is still more powerful than a planet as the video clearly shows. Need math made up by fans to try to explain fiction. Oh please don't take yourself this seriously. Things don't need to stack up in fiction this isn't real life.
When did the size matter since it destroyed a super nova which is greater in size than a planet. When did anything escape the black hole when the red matter was detonated on it ? It's destroyed planets, super novas, and ships yet you claim there's no proof it'll take the base.
You are delusional. You are in denial and will flee like you always do. You a,ways back down when the going gets tough.
Originally posted by quanchi112Not ear but WAR.
I didn't say transporting past the shields I meant transporting weaponry, bombs, torpedoes to weaken the shields could be employed. Quit ignoring the methods Trek has at its disposal here.That doesn't mean you have to be from the farthest and that isn't how it works. If you feel transporting has geographical limitations then prove it.
You didn't prove it but continue to just restate it like it means something.
They can weaken the shields with phasers, torpedoes, etc.
It destroys sure novas and the two ships we see that it pulled in were lost in time so as far as this thread goes they are bfrd into submission. The red matter wasn't used on the enterprise it just managed to get away. That's a problem since the red matter will be deployed on the specific target. Quit with your baseless claims of being more durable and what not. Prove it.
I am not fazed by your flaming which leads me to believe you don't strongly believe in your position since you'd rather. Flame to patch up your shotty argument.
It acted as a worm hole so it is what it is and in any event if Star Wars ships get pulled through they are done as far as this thread goes. Star Wars ships don't need to be destroyed to get rid of them for the purposes of this thread. The Borg don't need to assimilate to explosions just the frequencies of the standard weapons they use to give them the advantage. Stormtroopers guns failing to even stun them. The Borg also can assimilate Star Wars characters and ships. Time travel doesn't backfire so please quit with the nonsense. Just because the bad guys lose which they do in trek that doesn't mean time travel inherently always backfires. I've seen Star Wars blasters fail to explode various foes so please quit acting like their weapons are too potent to assimilate based off nothing concrete just shotty wishful thinking.
Prove a single Star Wars fighter is superior to the Vengeance. Your empty claims of it being more powerful isn't backed by anything in the films. The vengeance and its power and speed was shown via the film. The same can't be said of the star fighters portrayal in the films. The Narada doesn't need to take down the Death Star nor did I claim it would. Trek has weapons that can reform the entire nebula.
False. The vengeance was more powerful, three times the speed and twice the size as well as able to being manned by one man. That's a vast improvement and yet Star Wars doesn't have that sig ificsntly of a upgrade as the Vengeance had over the Enterprise.
c3Po isn't anything comparable to the ship Vengeance. This is about ear not some ditzy robot you claim is awesome. Pull your head out of your as and give Singh the credit he's due. Oh please Data makes c3po look like a chump in comparison. Yes, that's all nice and dandy but Trek has holodecks.
No, it isn't quite logical as Star Wars doesn't have to make sense and logically add up. Why are these idiots still using laser swords ? It doesn't make any sense so please leave logic near the force. Trek progresses as I said and improves over itself whereas wars does at a much slower rate in certain areas while minimally to next to nothing in other areas.
No, they aren't as they don't have Death Stars or anything comparable to the star destroyers. Trek is on another level due to their resources and ships like Narada, Vengeance, Vger, or the Borg cube.
Did you miss how the super star destroyer city and all went down as easily as it did by the rebels in Rotj ? What showings do they have of reducing a plant to slag. Show me something or allude to something in the film. Relying on hyperbole is a very desperate tactic. Why can't the vengeance survive a volley from the star destroyer ?
Han Solo has been captured before and he's overrated. Hell, the imperial forces failed despite him fixing his ship. Red matter or a black hole is above planetary shielding. You're not sure of a lot of things sounds like a personal problem. Galactic forces with transportation can't catch Han Solo ? Oh please.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ellimist for the purposes of our future battlezone we will go over the specifics of the distance of the battlefield and the planets and their locations so we are on the same page. Movie is out next month but this won't commence until it's DVD release and the YouTube clips are available but I like to plan ahead.
OK, but that doesn't really refute my argument. The disparity in FTL speeds makes it impossible for the Alpha Quadrant powers to effectively fight back against, say, the Galactic Empire, when the imperial starfleet can strike anywhere in the Milky Way at will and the Federation and co. have to spread their fleet across all their territory because they can't hope to mobilize them quickly enough to defend nearby systems or really do anything.
But that's just the first "level" of argument - you can ignore that, and still conclude a Star Wars stomp.
Level 1: they're too fast, they just blitz ST territories and bomb them.
Level 2: they're too big, the Empire alone controls enough industry to build a Death Star in a few years - that second Death Star outmasses the entire Federation starfleet by like nine orders of magnitude.
Level 3: they have superweapons, they can just genocide the entire Milky Way, while ST superweapons are a) too slow, b) have to genocide a much larger civilization and c) largely won't even penetrate planetary shields.
Level 4: calculations from a variety of events suggest that Star Wars's firepower and shielding abilities are literally millions of times superior pound for pound.
Bonus level: Force users, particularly ones in Legends, could infiltrate and disassemble the Federation without much difficulty.
Star Wars wins. Unless if you bring the Q and such beings into play, they're just orders of magnitude beyond the Alpha Quadrant in terms of their military ability.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I didn't say transporting past the shields I meant transporting weaponry, bombs, torpedoes to weaken the shields could be employed. Quit ignoring the methods Trek has at its disposal here.That doesn't mean you have to be from the farthest and that isn't how it works. If you feel transporting has geographical limitations then prove it.
You didn't prove it but continue to just restate it like it means something.
And they transport them where exactly? Into outer space? 🙄
I accept your concession. Beaming is not an option. Thanks for agreeing with me.
They can weaken the shields with phasers, torpedoes, etc.
Which, given the difference of firepower between SW and ST is probably going to take any amount of time between days and years...
It destroys sure novas and the two ships we see that it pulled in were lost in time so as far as this thread goes they are bfrd into submission. The red matter wasn't used on the enterprise it just managed to get away. That's a problem since the red matter will be deployed on the specific target. Quit with your baseless claims of being more durable and what not. Prove it.
As far as the thread goes, we were talking about technology and who is more advanced. And in that regard: Starkiller Base could have moved to the star about to go supernova far faster than Spock's ship and have drained it completely, before the supernova even happened. Again: Star Wars > Star Trek.
I am not fazed by your flaming which leads me to believe you don't strongly believe in your position since you'd rather. Flame to patch up your shotty argument.
Don't see what is there to patch up, aside from the argumentative Titanic you happened to construct out of words, just to drive it straight into the iceberg of your lacking brains, dimwit.
It acted as a worm hole so it is what it is and in any event if Star Wars ships get pulled through they are done as far as this thread goes. Star Wars ships don't need to be destroyed to get rid of them for the purposes of this thread.
As far as this thread goes, we were arguing technology. As far as that goes, you have failed to explain how the Star Trek side would even be capable of delivering Red Matter to any SW ship / base, since they would need years to get anywhere in the Galaxy, when the SW side travels through the Galaxy within hours.
The Borg don't need to assimilate to explosions just the frequencies of the standard weapons they use to give them the advantage. Stormtroopers guns failing to even stun them.
Star Wars Blasters aren't lasers. They fire charged up plasma bolts that explode when making contact with the target. Thus, the Borg would need to adapt to explosions. 👆
The Borg also can assimilate Star Wars characters and ships.
Since they will never get their hands on either, since they are snails in space compared to Star Wars ships and still can't get through Star Wars shielding, assimilation is another non-issue, next to beaming. 👆
Time travel doesn't backfire so please quit with the nonsense. Just because the bad guys lose which they do in trek that doesn't mean time travel inherently always backfires.
It's still useless, if you want to discuss Star Wars vs Star Trek. So?
I've seen Star Wars blasters fail to explode various foes so please quit acting like their weapons are too potent to assimilate based off nothing concrete just shotty wishful thinking.
They do adapt to enemy weapons, not "assimilate", Quanchimon. Furthermore is this not an issue of "potency" of those weapons, but the mere fact, that they aren't phasers, but plasma weapons. And the latter were explicitly considered to combat Borg, because they couldn't adapt to them (ST:TNG episode "The Best of Both Worlds" for reference). Thus "adaption" is also ruled out.
Prove a single Star Wars fighter is superior to the Vengeance. Your empty claims of it being more powerful isn't backed by anything in the films. The vengeance and its power and speed was shown via the film. The same can't be said of the star fighters portrayal in the films. The Narada doesn't need to take down the Death Star nor did I claim it would. Trek has weapons that can reform the entire nebula.
3:00
Luke fires on the Death Stars surface, with large parts of it getting vaporized by that shots, with the last explosion leaving a fireball about twice the size of Luke's X-Wing (roughly 25 meters). Now just imagine that kind of firepower being used on your regular Federation Starship. Shields would be down in an instant and every hit would vaporize large parts of the ship.
False. The vengeance was more powerful, three times the speed and twice the size as well as able to being manned by one man. That's a vast improvement and yet Star Wars doesn't have that sig ificsntly of a upgrade as the Vengeance had over the Enterprise.
Yeah. Because increasing the size of an already giant space-station by five to six times as well as increasing the fire-rate of its main weapon from - apparently - one day to several minutes doesn't count as "upgrade".
c3Po isn't anything comparable to the ship Vengeance. This is about ear not some ditzy robot you claim is awesome. Pull your head out of your as and give Singh the credit he's due. Oh please Data makes c3po look like a chump in comparison. Yes, that's all nice and dandy but Trek has holodecks.
"This is about EAR (WAR)! Trek has holodecks!" I wonder if you are even trying to make sense at this point. 🙄 And I'm very sorry, but C-3PO is a fully developed artificial intelligence, capable of feeling emotions, assembled by a 10-year-old in his bedroom. The mere fact that a child, and not even a particularly rich one, can assemble something like that, speaks volumes of Star Wars tech advantage compared to Star Trek.
No, it isn't quite logical as Star Wars doesn't have to make sense and logically add up. Why are these idiots still using laser swords ? It doesn't make any sense so please leave logic near the force. Trek progresses as I said and improves over itself whereas wars does at a much slower rate in certain areas while minimally to next to nothing in other areas.
You still don't get it: Star Trek has much more ability for progress, because they are far less developed than Star Wars. Thus even attempting to argue from there is completely hilarious.
No, they aren't as they don't have Death Stars or anything comparable to the star destroyers. Trek is on another level due to their resources and ships like Narada, Vengeance, Vger, or the Borg cube.
Do I, honestly, need to fetch the crayons?
The Resistance / Rebellion has technology (weapons, shields, ships) compareable to similar models of the Empire. They lack superweapons, sure, but the ships they have are at least a match for the Empire's / First Orders. And they have ships compareable to Star Detroyers (Mon Calamari Cruisers).
Arguing that Trek is above Star Wars in terms of resources is laughable, provided the Empire had the resources to build the second Death Star in under three years.
Did you miss how the super star destroyer city and all went down as easily as it did by the rebels in Rotj ? What showings do they have of reducing a plant to slag. Show me something or allude to something in the film. Relying on hyperbole is a very desperate tactic. Why can't the vengeance survive a volley from the star destroyer ?
"Easily"? Right. They focused their fire on that thing, took out the bridge deflector shield and then a kamikaze pilot did fly his A-Wing right into the bridge window. That's so easy - if you have Star Wars firepower, which Star Trek doesn't even remotely have.
Han Solo has been captured before and he's overrated. Hell, the imperial forces failed despite him fixing his ship. Red matter or a black hole is above planetary shielding. You're not sure of a lot of things sounds like a personal problem. Galactic forces with transportation can't catch Han Solo ? Oh please.
Since transportation doesn't work against Star Wars, all of this is pretty much a non-issue now. Thanks for trying...
Originally posted by quanchi112
So you haven't seen the size of Krall's ships from the latest Star Trek flick ? Sucks to be you.
Yeah. I have. Where is the point?
It isn't impossible you could black hole it into oblivion or another time.
Problems: Star Trek can't get Red Matter anywhere close to the Death Star and if it could, it stands to reason that the Death Star, being thousands or millions times faster than the Enterprise, would escape the black hole anyway.
It has to do with his tech not working and without him as a pilot but still being able to evade the inept imperial forces. He was tricked and outplayed by Vader due to getting to Lando first and shoestringing him. Also shows the tech can easily malfunction.
He evades ships that are made for large scale warfare against ships on their size or planets. Gosh. Much more: Ships that were not even trying to destroy the Millenium Falcon in the first place. So what he did was, pretty much, avoiding tractor beams. And big laugh at the "easily malfunction": there was a part damaged during the attack on the Rebel base on Hoth, which is why Han can't get to hyperspace. It didn't just stop working, as you want to make it look.
Due to manipulating the dimwits from the Star Wars universe. Sheer stupidity as they cheered while their civil liberties were dying. The majority of Star Wars being weak and easily controlled isn't something to applaud. He already knew Vader was his father. He already worried about this but foolishly dropped his guard completely like an idiot. He didn't need to take these risks for Luke someone he wasn't able to corrupt. He failed on multiple levels to lose his huge advantage and ultimately the war.
Does any of that matter for the topic of this thread? I don't think so. Moving on.
It's a list of potent weapons forces all of which Star Wars has to deal with. The majority of the Star Wars imperial forces are inept and easily tricked. The list I made makes your list of imperial forces and weapons look inferior by direct comparison.
Those are still laughable, even compared to the Empire alone, which still - let me point this fact out again for you - controls the entirety of the Star Wars Galaxy. And Trek doesn't have superweapons. They have some technologies that could potentially be used as such, one time, against a single planet (Genesis device) or somewhere in space (Red Matter), with the issue still being, that none of that would ever get near Star Wars ships / space stations.
Thanks for proving that with this clip. I can post an imperial ship failing to destroy the MF and then we can compare to the Borg cube against its opposition.
What I have "proven" with this clip is, that Star Treks real "combat speed" isn't "lightspeed" but looks even slowers than the usual Star Wars combat speed. There goes your argument. And I'm very sorry: You can't post a clip where an Imperial ship fails to destroy the Millenium Falcon since, spoiler alert for people who know jack shit about Star Wars, not a single imperial ship did ever try to destroy the Falcon.
They ended up destroying the cube. You are also ignoring the combat speed of the frontier ships, the USS vengeance as well. Did the stardestroyer destroy the MF ?
Oh. Quanchilogic at work.
A single X-Wing took down the Death Star. The Death Star > Thousands of Borg Cubes. Therefore Luke Skywalker in his X-Wing > entire Borg collective. I'm not ignoring any combat ship, Quanchimon. It's a fact that they never engage targets on "lightspeed" when there isn't a pursuit going on. Totally irrelevant for this track.
They don't have to get past the shields but instead black hole the shields. They can transport near the starkiller base, dumb dumb. Why won't the red matter do significant damage ? Supernova, planet, gigantic ships so please prove it wouldn't do damage to these easily destroyed bases.
What do you want to transport near Starkiller base. You are, essentially, suggesting, that they could just transwarp beam red matter to any location in space. Which is utter nonsense, since they wanted to get it to a certain location in space as fast as possible and did sent Spock with his ship, instead of just beaming it there. So either is their beaming technology (fully developed by Scott in Spock's original timeline) limited, or it is not possible to deploy the red matter in that fashion. There goes your argument.
Red matter. Starkiller is gone. Or the Borg could invade and assimilate. Vengeance in combat was at three times warp which is far faster than any wars ship in combat. Your tears taste wonderful.
Tears from laughing perhabs, given that none of that works, as demonstrated above.
Trek has multiple forces here so please quit acting like they can't monitor this light years away. Acting as if they won't know the location of this mega base is unfounded. Did the rebels not know where the base was ?They can beam people near the base.
I don't need to act as if they can't monitor stuff lightyears away because they can't even monitor what is minutes of travel time ahead of them in the first Star Trek movie. They fly right into a freaking trap, when Vulcan is just 16 lightyears way from Earth. That's the extend of their monitoring abilities. Just for the record: The Millenium Falcon, operating at speed of 60 million times the speed of light, could cross that distance in 8 seconds.
It destroyed it so speed of destruction is irrelevant. It didn't need multi blasts to destroy more than one target. A super nova is still more powerful than a planet as the video clearly shows. Need math made up by fans to try to explain fiction. Oh please don't take yourself this seriously. Things don't need to stack up in fiction this isn't real life.
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I find it rather laughable, that you attempt to talk down Starkiller Base, by comparing it to a supernova, while discussing technology here. Starkiller Base does harness entire stars and dark matter > anything Star Trek has to offer in terms of energy use. And it's also far superior to anything Star Trek has to offer in terms of firepower. Fact. Moving on.
When did the size matter since it destroyed a super nova which is greater in size than a planet. When did anything escape the black hole when the red matter was detonated on it ? It's destroyed planets, super novas, and ships yet you claim there's no proof it'll take the base.
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"Matter" would be a good keyword here, since the black hole completely fails to "destroy" that, as we all know. And they can't "detonate" the matter on anything, as demonstrated above. You point is mood.
You are delusional. You are in denial and will flee like you always do. You a,ways back down when the going gets tough.
You're a moron who doesn't have an argument and tries to missdirect opposition in order to continue the debate. This is over for lack of opposition. As I said: You're just cheap entertainment.