Whose tech is superior ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on what ? Is this just let's name any ridiculous thing and pretend [B]Star Wars is this formidable machine beyond Trek when that isn't the case at all. Be serious for a moment. Wars has looked pathetic against primitive people. The Stormtroopers got their asses kicked by ewoks for ****s sake. [/B]

Based on Star Wars ships having far greater mobility via the Hyperdrive than anything Star Trek can muster. How can Star Trek deal with star destroyers popping right on top of their worlds, pulverizing them into dust, and hyperdriving away to the next destination? How can Enterprise fleets get to the target locations in time? They're just too slow.

There's no need to pretend anything. The facts speak for themselves. Considering I only ever mentioned Star Destroyers I don't understand the relevance of how well Ewok's have performed on the Imperial forces on the surface of Yavin. Am I to assume that this is a concession on your part?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Wars has looked pathetic against primitive people. The Stormtroopers got their asses kicked by ewoks for ****s sake.

Hm...except according to the script, movie, comic and novelization, the Empire was winning the ground battle, until Chewie hijacked an AT-ST and it wasn't just the Ewoks in the battle.

But you know, let's just ignore that fact and also ignore the other things that were going against the Empire there in that scenario.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm...except according to the script, movie and novelization, the Empire was winning the ground battle, until Chewie hijacked an AT-ST.

Still irrelevant. I think he was aiming for a.. quick look! A distraction! He's still ignoring one of Nai's points. How could they even get to the starkiller base in time before everything they have is wiped out? He keeps making a big deal on how long it takes to fire but is still neglecting how long it takes Enterprise ships to get anywhere and how they're going to even reach the base. I think he's having issues understanding the concept of time and distance.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Still irrelevant. I think he was aiming for a.. quick look! A distraction! He's still ignoring one of Nai's points. How could they even get to the starkiller base in time before everything they have is wiped out? He keeps making a big deal on how long it takes to fire but is still neglecting how long it takes Enterprise ships to get anywhere and how they're going to even reach the base. I think he's having issues understanding the concept of time and distance.

Oh I know it's irrelevant, I was just merely pointing out that despite his distraction it...ya know, was still wrong and even more pointless to bring up.

lmao at Trek > SW.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Based on Star Wars ships having far greater mobility via the Hyperdrive than anything Star Trek can muster. How can Star Trek deal with star destroyers popping right on top of their worlds, pulverizing them into dust, and hyperdriving away to the next destination? How can Enterprise fleets get to the target locations in time? They're just too slow.

There's no need to pretend anything. The facts speak for themselves. Considering I only ever mentioned Star Destroyers I don't understand the relevance of how well Ewok's have performed on the Imperial forces on the surface of Yavin. Am I to assume that this is a concession on your part?

Well one thing they have planetary shielding, communications, transporting, etc. How did the empire handle the ewoks ? Did they just pulverize the planet before they knew what hit them ?

How are they too slow when the empire can't even put down the ewoks ? Is this just make shit up without any proof based off your imagination.

We have seen the star destroyer unable to even destroy the Millenium falcon yet you claim it destroys planets in seconds ?

😂

Seriously, make a claim you can kinda prove not just something you just randomly toss at a wall and hope it sticks.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm...except according to the script, movie, comic and novelization, the Empire was winning the ground battle, until Chewie hijacked an AT-ST and it wasn't just the Ewoks in the battle.

But you know, let's just ignore that fact and also ignore the other things that were going against the Empire there in that scenario.

The Stormtroopers have been portrayed as inept and pathetic even against primitive midgets with spears and traps in the woods.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Still irrelevant. I think he was aiming for a.. quick look! A distraction! He's still ignoring one of Nai's points. How could they even get to the starkiller base in time before everything they have is wiped out? He keeps making a big deal on how long it takes to fire but is still neglecting how long it takes Enterprise ships to get anywhere and how they're going to even reach the base. I think he's having issues understanding the concept of time and distance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What are you talking about ? When we pit factions against each other we don't do it at the edge of the universe. They are within the same fictitious galaxy. They aren't ten billion light years away from each other. Additionally Trek can you know transport and will have defenses and their own forces to contend with. When we put fighters against each other they don't start off on separate planets and have to travel to one another across the universe. Please quit trying to handicap Trek in order to give Wars an advantage due to bias.

So to translate this post, "I want to ignore one of the biggest advantages Star Wars has over Star Trek because it doesn't make my beloved franchise odds look very good so please don't use that." It doesn't matter where they start. Even if they are within the same galaxy it takes Star Trek ships considerably longer to go from one side of the galaxy to the other. They simply won't make it to any engagement in time.

As for your fighter comment this is very different. When you pit a fighter against a fighter the only way they can truly fight is by inhabiting the same space. You are pitting one universe against another. So space becomes the battleground. This isn't a starship on starship battle but a battle between technology. A battle where a Star Destroyer can hyperdrive to a planet, pulverize it into dust, and hyperdrive out before Star Trek can muster enough of a force to even begin to challenge it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So one gigantic hairy man can hi jack one of their weapons and turn the tide ? The ewoks were tossing spears. For **** sake they should have been annihilated in seconds.

The Stormtroopers have been portrayed as inept and pathetic even against primitive midgets with spears and traps in the woods.

More talk about Ewoks and Stormtroopers when this "Fight" is involving Star Trek tech vs Star Wars tech. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
So to translate this post, "I want to ignore one of the biggest advantages Star Wars has over Star Trek because it doesn't make my beloved franchise odds look very good so please don't use that." It doesn't matter where they start. Even if they are within the same galaxy it takes Star Trek ships considerably longer to go from one side of the galaxy to the other. They simply won't make it to any engagement in time.

As for your fighter comment this is very different. When you pit a fighter against a fighter the only way they can truly fight is by inhabiting the same space. You are pitting one universe against another. So space becomes the battleground. This isn't a starship on starship battle but a battle between technology. A battle where a Star Destroyer can hyperdrive to a planet, pulverize it into dust, and hyperdrive out before Star Trek can muster enough of a force to even begin to challenge it.

More talk about Ewoks and Stormtroopers when this "Fight" is involving Star Trek tech vs Star Wars tech. Concession accepted.

Give me one example in the films of a star destroyer hyperdriving to a planet and pulverizing it in a reasonably fast amount of time. You're acting like Trek doesn't have planetary shielding and that they can't communicate with their other forces or amass a force or base around the planets ?

Borg, Augments, Frontier, Klingons, Federation, Vulcans, and Romulans. Yeah they are all separated from each other by hundreds of light years isolating themselves with communications off. 😂

We see Star Wars with their tech in a war like fashion get humiliated by primitive midgets but you claim wars decimates entire worlds before anyone can blink. GTFO.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, that is absurd. If they are together in force why won't they make it ? What is wars going to attack barren wastelands.

[B]Give me one example in the films of a star destroyer hyperdriving to a planet and pulverizing it in a reasonably fast amount of time. You're acting like Trek doesn't have planetary shielding and that they can't communicate with their other forces or amass a force or base around the planets ?

Borg, Augments, Frontier, Klingons, Federation, Vulcans, and Romulans. Yeah they are all separated from each other by hundreds of light years isolating themselves with communications off. 😂

We see Star Wars with their tech in a war like fashion get humiliated by primitive midgets but you claim wars decimates entire worlds before anyone can blink. GTFO. [/B]

Here's the problem. Now you're assuming all their fleets are around and protecting their own planets. Do you not see the problem here? The idea that their planets and the Empire's planets would be right next to each other is absurd when you're comparing the technology and military might of two universes. Travel time is important in warfare and has been important since war's inception. How well a military power can respond and react to a foreign force is an important sign of their technological prowess. To deny this aspect is to do your thread a disservice and turn it into a technological arena fight which isn't really going to prove anything.

Star Trek has an innate problem, in fact there's numerous ones, but the biggest hurdle has to do with travel speed. You're the one who said, as per rules of this thread, that all the movies and their tech apply. So we aren't going by t.v. series but movies. In this case the Empire has Three Death Stars, all their imperial star destroyers, their fleet, and the rebel fleets. If you argue the entire "star trek" alliance is guarding their planets then Starkiller base wins by default by being beyond reach and firing at the planets. In this case they won't just destroy the planets but the fleets along with them. If the Star Trek forces go on the offensive they can't respond in time to Star Wars hyperdriving to their planets location and bombarding them. Planetary shields do not hold up indefinitely.

Star Trek is either forced to go pure defensive (and be obliterated from a range they can't compete with.) or go on the offensive and be totally helpless when ships drop right on top of their planets from hyperspace. Given that star destroyers can vaporize asteroids we know that their turbo lasers are far more formidable than large asteroids. No planetary shield is going to withstand that for any length of time and each blast is going to be devastating to sentient beings.

Here's the problem, you claim they won't be hundreds of light years away but the thing is.. even if they don't "Start" at that range. Star Wars ships can quickly position themselves at that range at any point during the battle. Star Trek does not have the numbers to be everywhere at once. It's just not tactically possible.

Not to mention if we limit ourselves only to the movies most planets, such as earth, do not have planetary shields.

None of this matters anyway. I'm merely entertaining you at this point. You have already conceded and have made it clear that you need to distract your debaters in order to try to have any credibility at all. The keyword here is try.

If anyone else wants to take it from here feel free but this is over.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So one gigantic hairy man can hi jack one of their weapons and turn the tide ? The ewoks were tossing spears. For **** sake they should have been annihilated in seconds.

Well yeah, especially since the Stormtroopers didn't have the firepower to take out an AT-ST, one thing can turn an entire battle around.

The Ewoks also had terrain advantage, plus you know...Rebel Commandos helping them out. The Ewoks had to use ambush tacts and overwhelming numbers just to even have a chance against them.

You're trying to cling to an argument, yet overlooking the facts.

One battle riddled with heavy circumstances, doesn't imply the Empire were inept.

Plus as you stated in this thread, this is ALL SW Tech vs ALL ST tech from the movies.

You bringing up one sole battle, to try and support as Trek being better is just retarded.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Here's the problem. Now you're assuming all their fleets are around and protecting their own planets. Do you not see the problem here? The idea that their planets and the Empire's planets would be right next to each other is absurd when you're comparing the technology and military might of two universes. Travel time is important in warfare and has been important since war's inception. How well a military power can respond and react to a foreign force is an important sign of their technological prowess. To deny this aspect is to do your thread a disservice and turn it into a technological arena fight which isn't really going to prove anything.

Star Trek has an innate problem, in fact there's numerous ones, but the biggest hurdle has to do with travel speed. You're the one who said, as per rules of this thread, that all the movies and their tech apply. So we aren't going by t.v. series but movies. In this case the Empire has Three Death Stars, all their imperial star destroyers, their fleet, and the rebel fleets. If you argue the entire "star trek" alliance is guarding their planets then Starkiller base wins by default by being beyond reach and firing at the planets. In this case they won't just destroy the planets but the fleets along with them. If the Star Trek forces go on the offensive they can't respond in time to Star Wars hyperdriving to their planets location and bombarding them. Planetary shields do not hold up indefinitely.

Star Trek is either forced to go pure defensive (and be obliterated from a range they can't compete with.) or go on the offensive and be totally helpless when ships drop right on top of their planets from hyperspace. Given that star destroyers can vaporize asteroids we know that their turbo lasers are far more formidable than large asteroids. No planetary shield is going to withstand that for any length of time and each blast is going to be devastating to sentient beings.

Here's the problem, you claim they won't be hundreds of light years away but the thing is.. even if they don't "Start" at that range. Star Wars ships can quickly position themselves at that range at any point during the battle. Star Trek does not have the numbers to be everywhere at once. It's just not tactically possible.

Not to mention if we limit ourselves only to the movies most planets, such as earth, do not have planetary shields.

Transporting takes less time than hyperdrive. Trek also have the Borg and will assimilate Wars tech as well so hyperdrive is something that won't take long to be used via the forces of Trek. Logistically it isn't reasonable to assume the wars can mobilize their entire fleets to dart around the universe. How many times do we see them not adequately prepared to deal with the rebels they have faced ?

Trek has enough forces to do both. Again quit undermining or downplaying what Trek has. Romulan empire, Klingon Empire, Federation, Borg, and the Frontier. So please quit acting like they don't have the forces to go on the offensive as well as protect their bases. What you need to do is prove the amount of time it takes with film footage to just hammer planets into submission. You see the weapons they do have which are capable are massive targets. Two Death Stars and one Starkiller base. The rest you need to prove. So please point to a reference.

Why doesn't earth have planetary shields ?

Trek also has weapons that can reformat entire nebulas. You aren't taking this into consideration and I haven't even gotten into time travel.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Why doesn't earth have planetary shields ?

I don't know. Ask the creators.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith

Star Trek has an innate problem, in fact there's numerous ones, but the biggest hurdle has to do with travel speed.

👆 Let's ignore the orders of magnitude disparities in their firepower and shielding ratings, or the Star Wars universe's ludicrous industrial capacity (.ie building the two Death Stars, which outmass the combined Federation fleet by like twelve orders of magnitude), etc.

The Federation, for example, communicates slower than star destroyers can move. There's just no conceivable way they could defend themselves. Why? Because they aren't fast enough to mobilize their forces to defend nearby star systems when hyperdrive is thousands of times faster, so they have to disperse their fleet incredibly thin to defend all of their relevant planets. Meanwhile, Star Wars can concentrate its forces and easily overwhelm the thinly spread Alpha Quadrant fleets, and they don't have to worry about counterattacks because of the speed disparity.

This isn't even considering starkiller base and the two death stars. Quanchi points out that the Alpha Quadrant powers have superweapons - but those superweapons are limited by the slowness of warp. Furthermore, they have more targets - .ie, the million systems of the Galactic Empire. Those three key superweapons, meanwhile, could effectively wipe clean the Federation in a few days. Kill Earth + kill Vulcan = dead UFP.

A war between the two universes, barring the intervention of deity like figures, is a curbstomp of legendary proportions, and that's ignoring the various calculations that could be done on their abilities that would put a single super star destroyer beyond the entire Borg Collective.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well yeah, especially since the Stormtroopers didn't have the firepower to take out an AT-ST, one thing can turn an entire battle around.

The Ewoks also had terrain advantage, plus you know...Rebel Commandos helping them out. The Ewoks had to use ambush tacts and overwhelming numbers just to even have a chance against them.

You're trying to cling to an argument, yet overlooking the facts.

One battle riddled with heavy circumstances, doesn't imply the Empire were inept.

Plus as you stated in this thread, this is ALL SW Tech vs ALL ST tech from the movies.

You bringing up one sole battle, to try and support as Trek being better is just retarded.

So their tech can be negated by a few helpers and terrain advantage. 😂

Must not be that tech superior then. Khan decimated Klingons despite terrain advantage and superior numbers by himself. Khan had superior skill and tech that matters not the shitty weaponry the troopers had access to. That's the point.

I didn't overlook any facts. The ewoks are primitive and had minimal help but overcame the Stormtroopers. Han Solo easily tricked them as well. Their portrayals as moronic, inept and quite frankly laughable is well deserved. Let's hope Rogue One does them justice because the films and the series rebels clearly hasn't.

Why they lost two Death Stars and the war slams my case home. Up to their ruler they were inept and arrogant to the point is how the **** could they **** this up ? They held every advantage and massively outnumbered and overpowered the rebels alliance.

I bring that battle up to make it clear wars isn't this massive war machine that easily eradicates its opposition. We see a battle on screen and in using that to buffer my point. I've used other's also Han Solo fixing his ship and evading empire vessels in embarrassing fashion.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
I don't know. Ask the creators.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why would Nero have to disable earths defenses by acquiring the frequency codes before he tried destroying it ?

Could have been codes for any kind of defense. Can you prove that they're codes to an energy field? Remember, we got to go by what we know in the movies. Plus, ships have crashed into Earth. If there were planetary shields they wouldn't have made it to the ground.

Plus all evidence points to the security codes as something that has to do with communication frequencies. Nothing about physical defenses. Makes sense, don't want reinforcements.

People have been asking questions on Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange ever since.

Furthermore they only lost two death stars because of the force's influence. It was made clear in the movies that without Luke the mission was impossible. This isn't the case when we're factoring in technology vs technology. It's an irrelevant argument.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Could have been codes for any kind of defense. Can you prove that they're codes to an energy field? Remember, we got to go by what we know in the movies. Plus, ships have crashed into Earth. If there were planetary shields they wouldn't have made it to the ground.

Plus all evidence points to the security codes as something that has to do with communication frequencies. Nothing about physical defenses. Makes sense, don't want reinforcements.

People have been asking questions on Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange ever since.

Furthermore they only lost two death stars because of the force's influence. It was made clear in the movies that without Luke the mission was impossible. This isn't the case when we're factoring in technology vs technology. It's an irrelevant argument.

Why use the word defenses when they could easily use the word communications ? We have seen the Narada can already easily disable communications so why need the codes to pull off what they already achieved on Vulcan ?

The force aided the ships blast. Luke still needed help from Han so don't downplay the others who died or Han's involvement freeing Luke up from Vader. Hyperbole. Destroying the Death Star isn't physically impossible without the force so don't go there. Star Trek can implore far more forces than the few rebels ships that successfully destroyed the Death Star. They lost the other one and the superior starkiller base was destroyed without the force so there's that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you believe they weren't shields and just defenses. That's fine whatever the case

Pretty much. It didn't make much sense, it was there for the drama and excuse to torture Pike.

"Border protection grids were security systems utilized by the United Federation of Planets to protect individual member worlds. Each grid utilized specific subspace frequencies which, if known, could be used to bypass the grid." Given the previous dialog it does seem like he's talking about the frequencies and the transmission. Truth be told in the other Star Trek mediums there's never been any evidence that there is some shielding on earth. This is true given the number of times earth was threatened or some large bodies (such as ships) have collided into it with no visible effect.

The problem you have here in this debate stems from the fact that most people here don't know Star Trek well. I actually do. I can argue via lore examples. The problem that you have is that I don't care to because while you refuse to accept it Star Trek stops at "Empire's ships have more flexibility and mobility via their warp drive." Your best argument against the Empire is "Empire incompetence." but this isn't a battle on whether the Empire is incompetent or not but in a battle of who has the best tech? Properly utilized Star Wars wins here.

Oh, for the record. I like Star Trek as much as Star Wars but in the end we're talking about one Science Fiction franchise which is more grounded in reality (as much as it can be there are elements that make this not quite true which annoys me) versus a High Sci Fi Fantasy with Space Wizards.