Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The ritual took 10 days to perform. 1,400 years later, it's fairly obvious Vitiate now knows what he's doing. The ritual itself might take a few weeks, sure. Or he may have perfected it like Ziost, which was pretty instant..
You're not getting it. Of course when the ritual is activated it would be instantaneous. But preparing that ritual is still going to take ten days. It's like building a computer: building it from scrap metal will take a long time, but once it's finished it will start immediately.
The same applies on a galactic scale, except this time it will take much, much longer.
Ziost is an invalid example, because it wasn't a ritual to begin with. Vitiate can unleash a planetary Death Field the moment he wants, so using a ritual isn't necessary. But if he did decide to do it as a ritual, it would still take ten days, or even longer since he wouldn't have 8000 Sith to help him. If I have a working computer, I can start it immediately, so there's no need for me to build another computer. If I do decide to do it, however, it would still take a long time, and me possessing another working computer doesn't change that.
Do you now understand?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you saying the ritual will take centuries to prepare for or it will take centuries to actually perform? One of these is actually supported by the text. The other one is speculation.
Activating it will be instantaneous, but prepping it will take centuries. That's my take on it.
Originally posted by Azronger
You're not getting it. Of course when the ritual is activated it would be instantaneous. But preparing that ritual is still going to take ten days. It's like building a computer: building it from scrap metal will take a long time, but once it's finished it will start immediately.The same applies on a galactic scale, except this time it will take much, much longer.
Ziost is an invalid example, because it wasn't a ritual to begin with. Vitiate can unleash a planetary Death Field the moment he wants, so using a ritual isn't necessary. But if he did decide to do it as a ritual, it would still take ten days, or even longer since he wouldn't have 8000 Sith to help him. If I have a working computer, I can start it immediately, so there's no need for me to build another computer. If I do decide to do it, however, it would still take a long time, and me possessing another working computer doesn't change that.
Do you now understand?
No.
1. The nathema ritual took 10 days. The prep for it was pretty instantaneous. It was Vitiate's first time and he popped his cherry. He absorbed 8,000 sith lords (whether with help or against their will). 1,400 years later, he was pretty clear that he not only mastered it, but can do it on a grand scale. He just needs a galaxy spanning war.
2. The ziost ritual WAS a ritual but at that point, he had mastered it. It was instantaneous. He didn't need sith lords, or prep, or anything. It stands to reason that a galaxy spanning ritual would go a lot faster. It may take weeks or even months. I'm granting you the idea that the vision the Wrath had wasn't instantaneous but over some period of time. The point is, it didn't take "centuries" of prep if all that was needed was a galaxy spanning war.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No.1. The nathema ritual took 10 days. The prep for it was pretty instantaneous. It was Vitiate's first time and he popped his cherry. He absorbed 8,000 sith lords (whether with help or against their will). 1,400 years later, he was pretty clear that he not only mastered it, but can do it on a grand scale. He just needs a galaxy spanning war.
2. The ziost ritual WAS a ritual but at that point, he had mastered it. It was instantaneous. He didn't need sith lords, or prep, or anything. It stands to reason that a galaxy spanning ritual would go a lot faster. It may take weeks or even months. I'm granting you the idea that the vision the Wrath had wasn't instantaneous but over some period of time. The point is, it didn't take "centuries" of prep if all that was needed was a galaxy spanning war.
This is going nowhere. Neither of us is going to convince the other, so we may as well just agree to disagree.
Originally posted by Azronger
This is going nowhere. Neither of us is going to convince the other, so we may as well just agree to disagree.
Why agree to disagree when you're wrong? You're claiming Ziost wasn't a ritual. It was. It was also instantaneous without the need for prep. The vision the Wrath had was also instantaneous although I would entertain the possibility that it would take some time to spread throughout the galaxy. There's nothing to disagree on when one of us is wrong.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Don't get me wrong, Tempest is an awesome debater, just not quite on the level with Sirfizzwhizz / Wollfmyth / Kbroskywalker types
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Tempest, my lord.A group of peasants have questioned your almighty greatness. Please show these fools how to smite an opponent's vigor with what I believe is called an 'argument'.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
A fool who dares to challenge Gideon the great, is no friend of mine.Your impatience sets us apart. Come now, we all know that Tempest is not one to run away from a challenge. 😆
I'm trying to determine which is greater: your need for my attention or your need to be seen as a challenge to me. Clearly both are... Considerable.
It took 10 days with the assistance of eight thousand Sith Lords to wipe out Nathema. And Vitiate was attempting an infinitely bigger ritual in SWTOR. No matter how much more powerful he became, the fact that he was spending centuries of prep time and the fact that he required billions to die in order to initiate the ritual make complete sense.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It took 10 days with the assistance of eight thousand Sith Lords to wipe out Nathema. And Vitiate was attempting an infinitely bigger ritual in SWTOR. No matter how much more powerful he became, the fact that he was spending centuries of prep time and the fact that he required billions to die in order to initiate the ritual make complete sense.
✅
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Why agree to disagree when you're wrong? You're claiming Ziost wasn't a ritual. It was. It was also instantaneous without the need for prep. The vision the Wrath had was also instantaneous although I would entertain the possibility that it would take some time to spread throughout the galaxy. There's nothing to disagree on when one of us is wrong.
I'll just leave this here and be on my way:
Global cataclysms are not unheard of. Whole worlds teeming with life have been rendered lifeless by meteorites, broken apart by instability in the planet's own core--even atomized by the destructive force of a supernova. But the eerie calm of a world stripped of life yet left otherwise intact is another matter altogether. Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.
-Death of a World Codex entry
@ant
Telepathy 1/2
All good points, like I said earlier. However, you haven't necessarily presented arguments in favor of Darth Krayt yet.I thought it'd be easier if I entertained the best possible arguments you could make for Vitiate and see if I genuinely believe Krayt is in with a chance.
a.) The fact Darth Krayt had to lure Darth Wyyrlok into a trap suggests he could not have bested him easily otherwise. If his power was significantly greater, he could have overwhelmed him with Force powers or his lightsaber skills, but he didn't. The fact Darth Krayt was willing to be brought to his knees with Darth Wyyrlok's lightsaber ready suggests desperation.Like I said, it wasn't easy by any means, but Krayt was in control of the fight. I by no means think he faked the difficulty he showed in enduring Wyyrlok's attack, but he seemed to be confident in enduring it, which is why he retorted to Wyyrlok's monologue before offing him.b.) Alternatively, the prospect of Darth Wyyrlok bringing Darth Krayt to his knees on fair grounds is still possible. Darth Krayt musing that this was was his trap, not Wyyrlok's, was after Krayt visibly overcame the illusions. As we see in the comic, Krayt is blatantly in distraught and dismay, clenching his head and his face pale and sagging. If Wyyrlok didn't decide to give a short "time to die" speech before bringing down his lightsaber, Krayt would have probably been dead.
a.) Scourge has shown immense pain resistance, walking through a Dark Council member's lightning storm and walking away after significant physical injuries such as broken ribs, cuts across his head and body, etc. At the end of the novel, Scourge endures Vitiate's ritual of immortality, which yielded sensations like the following: "invisible claws tore at his insides, seemingly shredding his vital organs." He also wasn't nearly as affected by the Nathema nexus as Meetra Surik, suggesting comparable, if not greater, willpower. And yet a mere brush of Vitiate's power brought Scourge instantly to his knees, shrieking with pain. "The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation."First question; the immortality ritual. Define "endure". If he was debilitated, then it's not much of an endurance feat in a practical sense.
As for the rest, it's not really more impressive than shit Talon and Nihl have overcome, or even lesser versions of Krayt. A'Sharad Hett endured having his arm cut off, and being tortured/poisoned by Vong at length (who are masters at the art). Talon survived being stabbed through just a healing meditation, and shrugged off being smacked in the face by a starship moving fast enough to fly out of sight of anyone nearby. Darth Nihl endured the embrace of pain, as did Cade Skywalker, which make Scourge's endurance feats and his reactions to them look quite paltry. Krayt Reborn has better willpower than any of them; we're talking about a guy who, like Revan, "willed himself back to life" after suffering the height of his terminal illness, being blasted by Karness Muur's full lightning storm, falling from a cliff and then further being blasted to seeming death by Wyyrlok's lightning, which can kill up to a dozen Force users and shatter solid stone. Not to mention, Vitiate was on a nexus for his feat, meanwhile Scourge's willpower wouldn't necessarily receive a similar amp. Not convinced. As we saw, Vitiate's TP wasn't enough to stifle a heavily weakened Revan while he was amped. I see Krayt lasting alright with his own immense willpower.
Also bear in mind that his willpower feat of enduring similar injuries to Luke and overcoming them more quickly is not only immense, and enough to suggest at least comparable willpower to Revan (but probably higher); this was 100 years before being Reborn, a time where it’s stated that Krayt is “better than before” by Insider, and Krayt himself believes his power has “multiplied” and is “so much more” than it was before.
b.) The game makes clear that even the combined powers of the Dread Masters, when even considering the nexus of Oricon, were "insignificant" next to that of Vitiate (obviously note no one has even seen Vitiate's full power at display). The Dread Masters are capable of "breaking entire armies" with "crippling fear and mass hysteria." A source even states that "Republic and Imperial ships were torn apart by dark waves of madness and fear." They were also capable of enslaving an army of hundreds of Sith Lords, their mere presence killed anyone in a 900 foot radius around them even when on Force-hindering drugs, and brought the Hero of Tython to his knees from across the galaxy. And yet Vitiate was capable of keeping them "in check" throughout his life, with the Dread Masters even respecting his power.Driving armies mad is Aleema Keto-tier shit.
They enslaved an army of Sith Lords... but as with most of the premier feats in TOR, it was over an undisclosed period of time. They caused irreparable damage to their minds, turned them insane and made them loyal. That doesn't sound like converting an entire army at once or actively enslaving them all; that sounds like breaking people, maybe a few at a time, until you've built an army. Not at all different from Krayt forging an army of thousands of Sith Troopers; the strongest Force users Krayt could find shortly after their birth, entirely loyal and obedient to Krayt's every command to the point they'll kill themselves immediately for him, and who went insane and began suicide bombing Coruscant after sensing Krayt's death (implying Krayt built a Force-bond with each of them).
Also, while we're here, we can discuss that Krayt quite easily touched the mind of every single Dark Side practitioner in the galaxy simultaneously, telling them he had returned. That's millions of minds spread all across the galaxy. I'm not impressed by the Dread Masters. I'm sure Krayt could keep them under lock and chain all the same.
I mean, hell, an "iota" ("an extremely small amount", by definition) of Wyyrlok's power is enough to make 12 Force users, some being each other's family, start immediately butchering each other. Can the Dread Master’s do that so easily?
As we established, Andeddu and Wyyrlok can also kill people, scratch that, Force users via psychic trauma, even in a battle of wills, so the Dread Masters killing undisclosed "prisoners" isn't impressive relative to Krayt.
And I mean, there's also the fact that while downing the HoT is nice, it's still not much compared to what Wyyrlok and Krayt can do. Cade Skywalker is someone who endured the Embrace of Pain, laughed off Maladi's illusions, laughed off the lure of the Muur Talisman while it was attached to him, etc, but was haunted by Force Visions Krayt forced into his head, couldn't stop a dead Krayt from speaking in his mind, and was willing to fly into the sun because he thought Krayt's will could take over his will with Essence Transfer.
Also, Darth Revan showed the ability of Drain knowledge shortly after his encounter with Vitiate. Note that when he confronted Vitiate, the Dark Lord peered into his mind, making me believe that he would have learned said technique. Also obviously note that chances are he already knew it after thousands of years of study. Basically, he should be capable of bringing Krayt's foremost fears to the forefront of his mind. Alternatively, Vitiate might just completely sunder Krayt's mind with the dark side and dominate it by virtue of sheer and absolute emptiness and annihilation, like he did against Scourge and attempted against Revan. Point is, he's beyond Krayt's pay-grade.Uh, Darth Talon knows Drain Knowledge as well. Not really a big deal.
Even if he can bring Krayt's worst memories to the forefront of his mind more successfully than Wyyrlok, without the aid of a nexus (a dubious proposition, again, given Wyyrlok's intimate knowledge of Krayt and Vitiate not having shown Memory Walk), Krayt now has the experience under his belt of going through that and overcoming it. What will Vitiate do any different?
He can try to just dominate/sunder Krayt's mind (though it begs the question; why didn't Wyyrlok try this opposed to Memory Walk, when we know he can kill people telepathically? Perhaps it's harder or less effective?), but doing so to Scourge and failing to do so against a heavily, heavily weakened Revan, while amped on a nexus, isn't much of an argument when he has to do it a superior Krayt without a nexus.
Dark side spirits are generally weaker than their physical bodies. I can point to numerous examples of the ancient Sith being humiliated by novice Jedi.They can be weaker if they inhabit a weaker body, but they lack mortal chains as a spirit and can draw from the Living Force directly as a source of power, as Kun did on Yavin, rather than being limited by their Midichlorians. Wyyrlok still slapped him out of existence.
Telepathy 2/2
I do. Revan wasn't in prime condition when he overpowered death itself, nor when he resisted the corruptive energies of Malachor, the absolute void of Nathema, the ancient evil of Korriban, or the overwhelming influence of the Star Forge. And furthermore, Revan's already confronted Vitiate, so he has an inherent advantage there. Darth Krayt doesn't. The fact he went through the Embrace of Pain (something Darth Nihl did) and overcame Darth Wyyrlok after a struggle isn't enough for me to put him close to Revan's level when discussing how they would both respectively fare against Vitiate. Sure, Darth Krayt also brought himself back from the brink of death, but so has Darth Maul, and I doubt you'd make the claim that Maul would have any chance against Vtiiate's telepathy.Krayt was in horrid condition when he "overcame death itself" as well. As for enduring those nexus'; that's nice, but is it better than surviving prepped telepathic bombardment from a guy who can kill an ancient Sith with his mind? An Ancient Sith who can likewise kill Force users with his own mind? I don't think so. And then there’s Krayt’s 100 years pre-prime endurance feat in Beyond Shadows. He is very much along Revan’s lines where willpower is concerned.
Vitiate has encountered/enslaved Revan before, and likewise with Wyyrlok to Krayt, knows him very well, so that edge goes both ways. Unlike in Krayt's circumstance; he's never fought Wyyrlok before.
Maul didn't bring himself back from the brink of death; he was never on it. He just survived an unprecedented injury and kept functioning afterwards. Krayt's feat is different because he was on the brink of it and willed himself through.
 
Force Lightning
It's a matter of scaling, really.Krayt’s lightning doesn’t hinge on the Vong at all, though he did kill every Vong that got in his way while escaping from their barracks pre-prime. Anyway, I’ll address why I think Krayt’s is at least as good by the time he’s Reborn.Darth Krayt's lightning has never impressed me much, in truth. A lot of his feats and scalling is related to the Yuuzhan Vong, which are infamously weak against Force lightning (Traitor aside).
I recognize his scaling as being far better at it than any other Sith in his era, but Vitiate trumps that.
Darth Nyriss, after charging her energy for twenty seconds, was capable of disintegrating Meetra Surik and Scourge at the same time.Twenty seconds of charging time isn’t even slightly practical in combat, and she was empowered by a nexus. I’m sure if you put even Wyyrlok on Dromund Kaas with his stone-shattering lightning and let him charge it up for twenty seconds he’d manage the same quite easily.
When the energy was released, Revan jumped in front of it and backhanded the lightning back at Darth Nyriss. The result was Darth Nyriss being turned into a pile of ash. I take this as indication that Revan is capable of dishing out more raw power in a split second than Darth Nyriss can in twenty (obviously keeping in mind what Darth Nyriss can do with that twenty second lightning). In other words, Revan should be capable of disintegrating Darth Nyriss with his own power fairly easily (note he's in worse shape here than he was against Vitiate).This is pure conjecture and there’s no precedent set for what you’re suggesting. Just because Revan backhanded Nyriss’ lightning, doesn’t mean he can produce the same lighting whenever he wants, otherwise why have we never seen him do something like that? Are we to assume, also, that Revan can produce individual bolts of lightning equivalent to Vitiate’s because he backhanded one of them; that backhanded lightning being enough to knock Vitiate on his ass and burn his chest to a crisp? He might have stopped running at Vitiate with a sword if he could just throw a ranged attack with that kind of power.
No, it just doesn’t make sense. The best scaling Vitiate is going to get is off nexus-amped Nyriss alone.
a.) Vitiate's (charged) lightning is 'infinitely" more powerful than Darth Nyriss' (charged) lightning. Keep in mind the Vitiate likely charged it for less than a second, whereas Darth Nyriss did so for twenty.Here’s some problems with your premise:
1. You can’t reliably quantify Nyriss’ lightning off-nexus.
2. Vitiate is going to be hard-pressed to charge anything when Krayt can loose TK and lightning of his own to interrupt him.
With that said, I’ll explain why Krayt’s lightning is infinitely beyond Nyriss’.
An iota of the power of Wyyrlok’s non-charged lightning could kill something close to a dozen Force sensitive Andeddu cultists. His non-charged lightning can shatter stone columns. His non-charged lightning can shatter lightsaber and heavy-blaster resistant armour. Krayt’s pre-prime lightning can kill scores of Vong and Rakghouls.
Krayt, with his Vong parasites hindering him, already had lightning which “far outstripped” Wyyrlok’s. By the time he’s Reborn, he’s at least more powerful than before, and if you take his sentiment for it, his power as “multiplied”, “far more than it once was”.
Krayt’s lightning is several orders of magnitude higher than lightning which makes solid stone and large groups of Force users look like wet cloth.
Vitiate’s charged lightning is “infinitely more powerful” than lightning which can disintegrate two Force users while amped to hell by a nexus. Vitiate’s non-charged lightning is lesser than that.
I know whose I find more impressive. And again, Krayt is the much more skilled fighter, meaning he’ll make better use of his better lightning in terms of trading blows with Vitiate, whether that means reflecting bolts back at Vitiate as Revan did, or interrupting him when he’s charging.
 
Telekinesis
Darth Krayt's best telekinetic display, if you ask me, was his handling of Darth Nihl.Gameplay mechanics aren’t representative of canon, unfortunately. Anything else?While great, here's what Soa did against the protagonists (note this could have happened to Darth Nox) while fighting the rest:
As for Krayt; telekinetically throwing Cade around, utterly dominating Nihl, being far better than Wyyrlok, and being immeasurably more powerful than Jao Assam and Darth Wredd, who hefted and dropped a satellite so large it flattened hundreds of Sith (these two being several orders of power lower than Cade and all of Krayt’s lieutenants, who he’s already far beyond), strike me as overall more impressive than Viti.
In other words, you have two guys who can perform a telekinetic feat that kind of shits on most anything Vitiate has shown by this point, then you have a long list of people who are better than them, and then you have Krayt at the top.
Then, by Krayt’s association with Luke (meaning he’s inferably beyond the likes of Vader and Caedus), you can start scaling off of them, Starkiller, Rivi-Anu, OCW Anakin and his later massive power growth as both Anakin and Vader, etc and it becomes even more messy for Viti, given how colossal their telekinetic feats are. Benching capital ships, blowing up huge portions of frigates, dragging massive dreadnoughts fast enough to get in the path of missiles before a long line of large power growths… nope, I like Krayt’s chances here.
Now, note that Vitiate is more powerful than Soa as of SWTOR, and logically more powerful or at least around the same level as of the novel.Yeah, I’m still waiting for your premise for Novel Vitiate being comparable to SWTOR.I think it's fairly clear which display of telekinesis is more impressive.
