Darth Krayt vs. Novel Vitiate

Started by MS Warehouse11 pages
Originally posted by SunRazer
It took 10 days with the assistance of eight thousand Sith Lords to wipe out Nathema. And Vitiate was attempting an infinitely bigger ritual in SWTOR. No matter how much more powerful he became, the fact that he was spending centuries of prep time and the fact that he required billions to die in order to initiate the ritual make complete sense.

Once again, ziost was nigh instant since he mastered the ritual. Had he taken over an empire at its height, he could have initiated a galaxy wide war quickly. It also doesn't say he required 8,000 sith lords, he just absorbed them.

Other/Closing

This is certainly impressive, but I think a greater emphasis on the highlighted should be considered. The Embrace of Pain was a vital component of Darth Krayt's transformation, the entire point of that was using pain as a source of power. It stands to reason that he'll be capable of walking away quicker from a fight than an aging Luke Skywalker. If Darth Caedus was in the same situation, I'd imagine he would also walk away.
Well, that would help your argument. Again, even accounting for the added help, Krayt sustained so much injury that Luke Skywalker, I repeat, Luke Skywalker, was ready to give up and die, and got up anyway. That’s about as insane as it gets, and it’s before Krayt was at his strongest by quite a while.
Lucas' intentions on what he imagined Skywalker to be doesn't reflect that of the EU writers.
Elaborate, by all means.
I think novel Vitiate is at least *comparable* to this incarnation of Vitiate, and that's good enough for me.

Note that the vision was of a physical Vitiate, not a spirit version. The game didn't suggest a ritual either.

Sure, but even being thought of as having enough power to destroy the Rishi Maze dwarf galaxy is insane.

Again, you’ll need to explain why.
Where was this confirmed? Was it even disclosed how he would go about it?
“Being thought of” doesn’t really do much for your argument. People aren’t infallible, especially when discussing something as dubious as Vitiate eating the galaxy.
Revan already confronted Vitiate and should know the best ways to undermine him.

I don't think the opening provided Revan with a means of throwing the lightsaber anyway. Hurling something at Vitiate with the Force is a lot different from unleashing a blast of power.

And as I hope I made clear throughout my post, Darth Krayt might not even be better than the Revan in question. At least not in willpower.

Why would he know for sure? All he did was continually rush Vitiate.
Regardless, the point is Vitiate is a pretty clumsy guy in a fight. You can’t afford to be clumsy against a guy who is far more skilled than you, just as powerful, and packing instant healing.
I don't think this is fair to say. There's a difference from attempting to dominate Revan's mind but failing too, and then being inherently prone to all durated Force attacks.

Vitiate should be capable of handling Krayt's attacks due to having greater power (as outlined above). Even in a war of non-charged attacks, he should come out as the better.

Vitiate's lightning has also shown the ability to stop Revan dead in his tracks, and his telekinesis has pushed Revan dozens of meters back, suggesting he can't simply be rushed and killed.

How is it unfair to suggest Vitiate is vulnerable while he’s diverting energy elsewhere, whether that means attacking someone’s mind or charging up lightning? His attention/energy being diverted is exactly why Revan landed his Force attack, and in this condition, he isn’t much of a Krayt. Nevermind if Vitiate wasn’t amped, or if Krayt was.
The debate seems to be hinging on who is more powerful; this was more to establish two things:
1. Vitiate is a poor combatant.
2. Without a nexus amping him and weakening a Krayt who has already endured a hell of a lot of punishment, he’s going to have a much harder time of this fight. Now he’s fighting a fresh Krayt on neutral ground, making any comparisons to Revan pretty damn tainted.
Vitiate didn't think it was wise. But rather he was distracted by a new wave of opponents rushing in to confront him.

The opportunity wouldn't have been presented to Revan otherwise.

Likewise, I think it's possible that Vitiate truly does have the raw power of thousands of Sith Lords, and if true, he should be able to consistently defeat Darth Krayt.

Uh, after Revan was downed he walked up to him, picked up his lightsaber and tried to stab him. Revan started healing himself meanwhile. If he tried that with Krayt, Krayt would heal his wounds in an instant and probably stab Vitiate.
Vitiate is limited by how many Midichlorians he has in his body, like all Force users. It’s impossible to add on everyone’s combined power to your own, which is kind of why Bane, Palpatine, Vitiate, Krayt, Muur, etc, all spent so much time trying to transfer their essence to a fresh, more powerful body. All the ritual would do is increase his longevity.

I'd be interested in seeing an uninterrupted 1v1 between Ant and ILS, involving the reborn Krayt against either Vitiate or Revan.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Once again, ziost was nigh instant since he mastered the ritual. Had he taken over an empire at its height, he could have initiated a galaxy wide war quickly. It also doesn't say he required 8,000 sith lords, he just absorbed them.

It states that he had the assistance of the 8000, and if it took 10 days with those, it's obvious that he "required them". Could he have done it himself? Perhaps, but he'd be prepping for a lot longer 😂

Originally posted by The_Tempest
@azronger

Take it from someone who spent considerable time defending you, it would be nice for your to elucidate your point there.

Beefy keeps saying it wouldn't take centuries for Vitiate to consume the galaxy and he uses Ziost as an example to claim he's perfected his rituals. I posted that excerpt to prove Ziost wasn't a ritual in the first place, so you can't use that as proof that he has perfected them.

So Scourge's word is still valid. It would take centuries for Vitiate to consume the galaxy with a ritual.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that it wasn't an intricate ritual doesn't preclude it from being a ritual all the same 👆

Is there actually any proof to validate that claim?

Originally posted by Azronger
Beefy keeps saying it wouldn't take centuries for Vitiate to consume the galaxy and he uses Ziost as an example to claim he's perfected his rituals. I posted that excerpt to prove Ziost wasn't a ritual in the first place, so he hasn't perfected them.

So Scourge's word is still valid. It would take centuries for Vitiate to consume the galaxy with a ritual.

Ok gideon, are we on the same page now? Lol

Originally posted by Azronger
Beefy keeps saying it wouldn't take centuries for Vitiate to consume the galaxy and he uses Ziost as an example to claim he's perfected his rituals. I posted that excerpt to prove Ziost wasn't a ritual in the first place, so you can't use that as proof that he has perfected them.

So Scourge's word is still valid. It would take centuries for Vitiate to consume the galaxy with a ritual.

I missed the part about Scourge's word. Link me or repost?

The fact that Ziost was a clear display of the corrosive powers of the dark side doesn't preclude a dark side ritual, obviously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I missed the part about Scourge's word. Link me or repost?

"The Emperor has manipulated events for centuries towards one goal: performing an even greater ritual that will destroy this galaxy. But the ritual requires a great sacrifice to begin: billions of simultaneous deaths."

-Lord Scourge

The fact that Ziost was a clear display of the corrosive powers of the dark side doesn't preclude a dark side ritual, obviously.

The quote mentioned rituals as one way to suck the life out of planets, but then went on to say Ziost was something else entirely. True, it's not impossible it was a ritual, but nothing's impossible, really, so I'd like some proof. The quote suggests it wasn't.

Originally posted by Selenial
Krayt in both. First round is a fight, second really isn't.
Vitiate is a horrible lightsaber duelist.

Originally posted by Azronger
"The Emperor has manipulated events for centuries towards one goal: performing an even greater ritual that will destroy this galaxy. But the ritual requires a great sacrifice to begin: billions of simultaneous deaths."

-Lord Scourge

Ah, right. Well, as I've explained at length, Scourge's quote means that it took centuries to prepare the ritual, not perform it. Critical difference. Again, to use your computer analogy, it took Vitiate centuries to gather all the pieces and, perhaps, educate himself on how best to assemble them. But the ritual didn't begin until he actually started to build the thing.

Performance != preparation.

We have no idea how long it would take for Vitiate to perform the ritual. Centuries is how long it took to prepare.

The quote mentioned rituals as one way to suck the life out of planets, but then went on to say Ziost was something else entirely. True, it's not impossible it was a ritual, but nothing's impossible, really, so I'd like some proof. The quote suggests it wasn't.

No, the quote mentions "whispered rumors" of rituals and superweapons, but says that the death of Ziost is a "clear" representation of dark side power. As in, a verifiable instance of planet killing power - not rumor, myth, or legend.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd be interested in seeing an uninterrupted 1v1 between Ant and ILS, involving the reborn Krayt against either Vitiate or Revan.

Preferably Revan. My passion for Vitiate doesn't compare next to the champion I've raised up for years. That debate would certainly be a test of both our skills.

Still, though, the current debate is interesting, and I should have a response up today because I know the longer I stall, the least likely a response would be.

The ziost thing was indeed considered a ritual by most sources within the game. Trying to rationalize that it isn't, is a waste of tine.

Personally I'm unsure on this one, as I feel The Emperor in SWTOR is indeed more powerful than The Emperor in the Novel, and I believe Krayt is more likely than not above Revan, (albeit slightly). Then again, I suppose there was a more than slight difference between Novel Revan and Novel Vitiate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ah, right. Well, as I've explained at length, Scourge's quote means that it took centuries to prepare the ritual, not perform it. Critical difference. Again, to use your computer analogy, it took Vitiate centuries to gather all the pieces and, perhaps, educate himself on how best to assemble them. But the ritual didn't begin until he actually started to build the thing.

Performance != preparation.

We have no idea how long it would take for Vitiate to perform the ritual. Centuries is how long it took to prepare.

Good point.

No, the quote mentions "whispered rumors" of rituals and superweapons, but says that the death of Ziost is a "clear" representation of dark side power. As in, a verifiable instance of planet killing power - not rumor, myth, or legend.

Another good point.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The ziost thing was indeed considered a ritual by most sources within the game. Trying to rationalize that it isn't, is a waste of tine.

Can you present these sources?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Invasion_of_Ziost

And that's if we ignore that the properties during and after the ritual were exactly the same as nathema. That's that.

Wookieepedia, lmfao.

But fair enough, I guess.

Originally posted by Azronger
Wookieepedia, lmfao.

But fair enough, I guess.

Wiki versus no proof of your assertion plus the 100% similarities between nathema and ziost *

ILS, I finished responding to your first post of three. I'm going to take a break now and get back to working on a response later.