Originally posted by The_Tempest
Three full pages are dedicated to the duel before Ragnos's specter intervenes. That could be thirty minutes in comic book time.
Their combat was fierce but short for the spirit of Marka Ragnos appeared to them, telling them of their ancient ties to the Republic and the Jedi Knights and warning them to make their decisions for the future wisely.
Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook
Where are you getting six months from? 😬
Ulic was then confronted by another fallen Jedi, Exar Kun. As they engaged in a lightsaber battle, the Sith Amulets both Jedi wore began to glow, and they were visited by spirits of the Ancient Sith Lords who told them that Kun was the new Dark Lord of the Sith and Qel-Droma his first assistant. Years later, Ulic reappeared with tremendous dark side powers and set out to plunder and destroy large parts of the galaxy with a large and bloodthirsty army serving alongside Exar Kun.
- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
During the years he [Ulic] had transformed completely, into a warrior magus with dark powers far beyond those demonstrated by any other member of the Krath!
- Dark Empire Endnotes
In the years of the Great Sith War, Exar Kun learnt:
Exar Kun has learned all there is to know of the teachings of Naga Sadow.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook
Exar Kun has unearthed a trove of Sith alchemical lore left behind by the original group who fled here to the fourth moon of Yavin.
- Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume #2
Looking at all the precious artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use.
- Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume #2
Locked within it's recesses, accessible only to a Dark Lord of the Sith, are the forgotten histories and lore, dating back a hundred thousand years and more.
- Odan-Urr, Tales of the Jedi
As far as mastery of sorcery is concerned he is nothing like a novice:
The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side. Over the millennia, many creatures have been broken, twisted, and rebuilt by this evil power.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies.
- The New Essential Chronology
Exar Kun combined the natural venom from many different creatures when he mutated his original hydras. When the battle hydra hits with its stinging tail whip, a hooklike stinger injects acidic poison into the victim. This foul toxin is capable of destroying most of the victim's nervous system from the inside out within a matter of minutes.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
Exar Kun had also constructed a Sith superweapon, the Dark Reaper, that was capable of drawing in the life energies of thousands of combatants. Ulic unleashed the Dark Reaper against hundreds of Republic troops on the outpost of Raxus Prime.
- The New Essential Chronology
Exar Kun's Sith alchemy forever altered these creatures' physiology, giving them many unusual traits. For example, Kun introduced ancient Sith armor alloys into their basic physiology at the molecular level, reducing damage against attacks-even lightsaber attacks. They are also especially susceptible to manipulation through the Force. A trained dark side Force-sensitive may use the Affect Mind skill to command battle hydras in combat
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
The battle hydra is an example of Exar Kun's alchemical mastery and Naga Sadow's dark legacy. While no two are identical, each fits the same general description: a large, dragon-like reptile with broad, leathery wings over 2 meters across and a trailing, hook-tipped tail. Most battle hydras have a pair of heads mounted on sinewy necks. (Variations on this theme are common: Luke Skywalker's Jedi academy students reported encounters with a three-headed variety with no forelegs.) The monster also wields a long, leathery tail like a whip, sinking its poisonous tip into foes and prey alike. Four powerful legs tipped in hooked claws easily rip flesh from the hydra's victims. Battle hydras usually only attack with their claws after landing and beginning to feed.In the four thousand years since Exar Kun's spirit was entombed in the very temples he fortified, the battle hydras regressed into typical predator behavior. A small population survived by lurking in mountain caves and emerging only to hunt. Despite their fearsome appearance, the creatures are actually quite shy and generally hunt alone, only attacking in numbers when commanded.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
Although the Massassi pledged their loyalty to Exar Kun after he defeated the Sith wyrm, the Dark Jedi was still not satisfied. Filled with bitterness and spite, he swore to himself that he would make an example out of the warriors who had put him through his ordeal in the Temple of Fire. Furthermore, he realized that Naga Sadow had not gone far enough when he altered the Massassi. While they made excellent forest warriors, they were not prepared for the highpowered ordnance they would have to face when fighting the forces of the Republic. Exar Kun rejoiced when he discovered the giant alchemical machine that had belonged to Naga Sadow. At last, he had the means to shape his Massassi servants as he needed them, and he knew just the Massassi on whom he could experiment: Zythmnr, the priest who had ordered Kun to be sacrificed.The Sith disciple first altered Zythmnr physically, fusing the old priest's skin with metallic bioarmor and enhancing the Massassi's skeletal structure and musculature accordingly. Vicious claws became razored gauntlets, thick hide became hardened plating, and Zythmnr's head was encased in a shelled helmet. The process was excruciating for the Massassi. He not only survived, but also continued to worship Kun, willfully insisting the experiments continue.
Exar Kun was more than happy to comply. He took his next step: infusing his new warrior with the dark side using some of his own physical makeup as a template. When Zythmnr readily took to the treatment-and even showed potential with Force skills-Kun chose several more "volunteers" to continue his work. Before long, he had several dozen living weapons that exuded the raw power and energy of the dark side. Upon feeling their power firsthand, the Jedi called them "abominations." Kun would take many of these bestial servants on his quests for Sith knowledge. In a few cases, he even left a handful of his favorite warriors behind to terrorize any that might oppose him. While the Jedi believed that all of the Massassi abominations died with their people, there may yet be descendants of this hideous species stranded on some remote, forgotten world.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
Originally posted by AncientPower
Where are you getting six months from? 😬In the years of the Great Sith War, Exar Kun learnt:
Six months is the chronology from the comics itself. Unless a supplemental material retconned that, Kun's reign as Sith Lord lasted six months total. The Great Sith War began and ended in 3996 BBY, and the comics IIRC explicitly state six months. Star Wars has an odd way of pretending like mastery takes minutes when it takes a long long time. Unless Kun spent six months straight on speed, never sleeping, always improving and learning, he couldn't hope to approach years of practical experience on behalf of actual Sith Lords, the very same ones upon which his power is built.
But kudos for the sources you provided. Nice change of pace for the norm around here.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The Sith Empire benefits the strong. It's in the Sith code. While cunning and backstabbery is -extremely- common, the point is that those who rise to the top don't do so on mere intellect but on the merit of their own power as well.
I don't dispute that inherent power is a factor for Sith supremacy.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You have Ragnos, himself noted as immensely strong in the Force. GAotS supports it. His codex in TOR supports it. And Kreia, a Sith and Jedi historian, supports it. His immediate successors include Kressh and Sadow, themselves surrounded by a Dark Council of power hungry Sith Lords.
Strength is relative. I don't dispute that Ragnos or even the likes of Sadow and Kressh are "immensely strong." What matters is how they compare to Sidious, whose strength in the Force is also immense.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, let's review the arguments at hand and avoid strawmanning:1. Sadow is exceptionally strong in the Force.
2. His place in Sith society supports this.
3. His esoteric knowledge of the Force supports this.
4. The fact that he's only checked by Ragnos (his explicit superior) and Kressh (his peer) supports this.
The only strawman here is yours, Dorothy. None of this is contested.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The counter assertion that he is not powerful in face of the above bears some direct refutation.
No, the counter assertion is that while Sadow may be powerful, that doesn't necessarily mean he's Sidious's equal, let alone superior. They're not mutually exclusive.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Assertion: Vitiate was Ragnos' inferior.Evidence to support:
1. Narration from Revan.
2. TOR lore.
3. The fact that despite hate-murdering his father and dominating his planet, he did absolutely nothing to challenge Ragnos.Counter-assertion:
1. Nuh uh.
Evidence to support:
1. .....
Finally?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, let's review the arguments at hand and avoid strawmanning:
^ You should heed your own counsel.
I asked for proof that Vitiate's inaction against Ragnos reflects inferiority with respect to Force powers. I don't dispute that Vitiate never acted against Ragnos. Vitiate never made any move to wrest greater control until the Sith empire had exhausted itself against their fellow Sith and the Republic. And even then, he did so under false pretenses: deceiving and luring his rivals to Nathema for a ritual he claimed would reverse their fortunes. Nothing you said here proves or requires that Ragnos be a more powerful Force user than Vitiate.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You forgot to underline power.Power and strategic discipline exist in concert with each other, and not in a vacuum. This source doesn't dispel that, despite your attempt to imply otherwise.
Nah, the codex emphasizes Ragnos's cunning and use of strategy over his inherent strength, much to the detriment of your argument. This notion that Ragnos's position was cemented primarily by his personal might, let alone only by it as you imply, is unsupported.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose^ They show fear and subordination before his spirit. If they were merely terrified of his political acumen and shrewdness, they would not do such to his spirit when power hangs in the balance.
Not really. Per The Essential Atlas, a reverence for the dead is a critical component of ancient Sith culture.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I meant the red herring. You've pulled a lot of strange ideas out of my posts.
Not really, I just read what you write lol.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
DLotS narration notes that Kun initially can't control the amulets and he struggles to use them against the Sith Wyrm. Later, when doing things like freezing the entire Senate or controlling the Chancellor like a sock puppet, the amulet sparks or flashes. The same way Kressh's does when he crushes the statue.[QUOTE=15795826]Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[B]Same as this:
Yes, the same amulet that Sadow visibly employed in his battle with Kressh... to decidedly lackluster results.
This:
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Can you point reformat this?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Oh, look what I found:
So that I don't misinterpret it, would you mind clarifying your point with respect to this?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
...And this?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He's possibly better. Certainly head and shoulders better than everyone else in his era, and only matched in physical dueling capability by Ulic. But he's also a neophyte Sith Lord with only six months' of study and training. That fledgling knowledge could make all the difference.In any case, my point is that the amulets, which were crafted by Sadow and which Kressh also appears to have a duplicate of (or one near enough in appearance and function) explicitly amplify rage and dark side power. It makes Exar Kun, who was unable to fight the massassi, suddenly able to destroy the entire temple and the Sith Wyrm, and Falcon Punch Nadd's previously powerful ghost. If you believe that we can say "No way the creator of said amulet could do such things" when he has the Meditation Sphere and the Corsair starship, two cosmic level Force toys, you are deluding yourself for the sake of advocating Sids.
Except the unavoidable fact that when we see Kressh and Sadow employ the amulets in a duel to the death, they never demonstrate the same might that they for for Kun. A reasonable explanation for which might simply be that Kun possesses power and rage in greater abundance than either of them.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What does Ockham's Razor tell you?
What I just said: that Kun has greater power and rage in abundance than do his predecessors and is so able to wield such amulets to greater effect.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'll concede the point for now.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
See above. The point was to prove Sadow a credible enough threat that he would threaten DE Sidious, especially with backup. There's enough evidence to support that.
There is no evidence to support that. To wit, your argument supporting Sadow hinges on the character's vague relationships with Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos—notions that, even if proven, still wouldn't prove your conclusion. You also seem to think that Sadow being really powerful means he can legitimately threaten the Emperor. Power is relative. Sadow can simultaneously be "really powerful" and merely a blip on Palpatine's radar.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That's misrepresenting my argument in an attempt to make it harder to defend. I noted above that the amulets provide amplifying power. There's evidence to support it.
And yet again, when Sadow and Kressh employ amulets, they never come close to rivaling Kun's use of them.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's tons of scans to support them activating when Force powers are used.There's a good reason to believe that the creator of said amulets would be able to harness them as well if not better than Exar "I almost died using it the first time" Kun.
There's precisely zero evidence to expect otherwise.
The problem is that the on-panel evidence directly contradicts that notion. Which might not necessarily be crippling, given Legends' vast history of contradictions and inconsistencies, but their respective showings come from the same comic series written by the same people.
We have evidence and good reason both to believe that Kun was a prodigy in ways that Sadow and Kressh were not, which adequately explains the disparity.
But rounding all that back to Sadow and Sidious, the fact of the matter is that Sidious has far greater feats and accolades to his name, and in greater abundance. Your defense of Sadow barely even draws on direct connections to him and instead relies on naked speculation and vast logical reaches that don't come close to justifying your conclusions.
Your position can be bested summed up as a house of cards sitting on a table with a broken leg inside a condemned house in the middle of the San Andreas Fault.
I accept that Sadow is powerful. I do not accept that he's anywhere close to the Emperor, nor have you given me any reason to. 😬
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Six months is the chronology from the comics itself. Unless a supplemental material retconned that, Kun's reign as Sith Lord lasted six months total. The Great Sith War began and ended in 3996 BBY, and the comics IIRC explicitly state six months. Star Wars has an odd way of pretending like mastery takes minutes when it takes a long long time. Unless Kun spent six months straight on speed, never sleeping, always improving and learning, he couldn't hope to approach years of practical experience on behalf of actual Sith Lords, the very same ones upon which his power is built.But kudos for the sources you provided. Nice change of pace for the norm around here.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia has evidently retconned that, the war took years before it ended.
Beyond that we already have canonical statements proving that Exar Kun wasn't just a master of alchemical and sorcery practices like Naga Sadow, but he advanced Sadow's own knowledge.
Not to mention the vast display of sorcery based powers he has used, which is still referenced as only some of his powers according to the Jedi Academy Sourcebook.
Beyond that Exar Kun had knowledge from the Dark Holocron, the Chamber of Anquities in the Great Library on Ossus, the Tedryn Holocron and more.
Not that the amount of time they've studied the force has ever been relevant in the lore. Nyriss probably studied Sith sorcery longer than Kun has been alive, but Kun would laugh at her relative ineptitude. Some would even say Kun is comparable to Vitiate, who's studied the dark side/Sith sorcery for 40-50 of Kun's lifetimes.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's just because different people learn at different rates in different contexts, like in real life.
Its not just learning. Kun built a ****ton of temples, went on an alchemy splurge, created his new lightsaber and learned how to use it and did a ton of other shit I can't remember.
