Originally posted by SunRazer
You Vader supporters don't have anything except calling people who disagree with you cancer and slugging them with whatever insults you can while running away. The idea that asking somebody to quantify 20% of Sidious' power for the sake of clarity is cancer is ****ing laughable and destroys all of your credibility as a debater 👆
Originally posted by SunRazer
That was a feat Plagueis did with two of his three hearts recently stopped, with him having lost much of his blood and still losing blood, and decades from his prime.Considering Meetra beat Traya on a "colossal geyser of dark side energy" and Vader had trouble with An'ya Kuro, Surik walks all over Robocop.
Also, I recall this discussion starting on the basis that Vader could one-shot Surik, which absolutely nobody has proven. 👆
The basis being Traya/Nyriss can't will themselves to the from the point of death, explode gigantic insects that withstand blaster bolts/besiege cities, withstand explosions of massive military installations with barrier, destroy ATTS/crush TIE fighters, choke out powerful force users that can hurl shuttles/disintegrate frigates, and the fact that them being on a nexus doesn't mean anything when they're vastly inferior in the force per feats ?
There is also the fact Vader can pretty easily stomp Traya in just about catagory barring her telepathic feats, and Nyriss whose only notable for her lightning out her on her ass in spite of Being inferior to Vader in every category as well. But yeah he cant ragdoll her coz we all know how skilled Surik is losing to Nyiss (almost being decimated by her lightning) and largely fighting tossers like Sion/fodder Sith in comparison to Vader whose command of the force is rivaled only by the most elite of Sith
LAL.
All I see is goalpost moving, and nitpicking. Lucas explicitly stated Vader ---- was 80% Palpatine's power; get over it. I don't care how we quantify it exactly, but that just is the facts.
I find it funny we run away with the shitty Tenebrous, speculative, Banite power-scaling that can't be proven, but ***** about the Lucas quote.
Not at all. We assume Tenebrous and Plagueis etc. do obtain the mastery and knowledge required to wield their successively superior raw power because they have access to the entire Banite archives and spend their whole lives mastering the dark side - certainly many times longer than Vader's Sith career. For instance, by the start of the Plagueis novel, Plagueis had spent well over a human's lifetime studying under Tenebrous, with both presumably having spent another few decades studying the dark side (Tenebrous under his master, Plagueis with Sidious). Vader only had 23 years and limited access to Sidious' knowledge bank. Hardly comparable examples.
Carthage - I'll give you a response later.
I'm not assuming anything Plagueis has scores of feats that can arguably place him above Vader, i,e causing Naboo to have one of its toughest winters, causing a massive tremor into the force upon his death, mastery of life per Midichlorian manipulation, etc. But Vader simply has greater accolades and force feats to Tenebrous the situations are complete different for all three characters
Still speculation, conjecture, and zero solid proof of anything.
My point stands. By your logic Vitiate should without a doubt be > all because he had had thousands upon thousands of years to study the Force, and the raw power to boot. Yet, you put Luke --- someone who has literally been living a fraction of the time Valkorion has, with less knowledge and shit to pull from, above Val, because....?
Like I said, double standard and shitty speculation abound.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Still speculation, conjecture, and zero solid proof of anything.
Really? Tenebrous is confirmed by numerous quotes from numerous authors to be more powerful than each of the Banite Sith before him. The opening chapter of Darth Plagueis suggests that he spent perhaps over a century learning and mastering the dark side, and we know that his reserves of knowledge were very great. This is all proven stuff. You only need a brain to put all of this together and get a reasonable conclusion.
My point stands. By your logic Vitiate should without a doubt be > all because he had had thousands upon thousands of years to study the Force, and the raw power to boot. Yet, you put Luke --- someone who has literally been living a fraction of the time Valkorion has, with less knowledge and shit to pull from, above Val, because....?
Because Luke's potential is about as great as Anakin's, which is 200% of Sidious - much more than Vitiate's.
Like I said, double standard and shitty speculation abound.
What double standards? You don't have a single example that suits your point.
Originally posted by SunRazer
You Vader supporters don't have anything except calling people who disagree with you cancer and slugging them with whatever insults you can while running away. The idea that asking somebody to quantify 20% of Sidious' power for the sake of clarity is cancer is ****ing laughable and destroys all of your credibility as a debater 👆
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yet, you put Luke --- someone who has literally been living a fraction of the time Valkorion has, with less knowledge and shit to pull from, above Val, because....?
Bad analogy. Luke has plenty of feats and accolades to put him above Valkorion, and he also benefits from inheriting the potential of the Chosen One - .i.e very similar reasoning to why we can put Tenebrous that highly.
Really? Tenebrous is confirmed by numerous quotes from numerous authors to be more powerful than each of the Banite Sith before him. The opening chapter ofDarth Plagueis suggests that he spent perhaps over a century learning and mastering the dark side, and we know that his reserves of knowledge were very great. This is all proven stuff. You only need a brain to put all of this together and get a reasonable conclusion.
Earth to moron; my point was none of this proves Tenebrous is above Vader at all. Literally, none of it does. It's all speculation and nothing definitive. Use you brain for once, sweety.
Because Luke's potential is about as great as Anakin's, which is 200% of Sidious - much more than Vitiate's.
Who cares? He obviously didn't come anywhere near reaching that potential, as he isn't anywhere near two times more powerful than Sidious --- if he is at all. We can all pretty much agree combatively speaking, Val and Luke raw power share a good deal of parity.
So again; why can't the same argument you used for Tenebrous being above Vader with the knowledge + time spent mastering and whatever other garbage apply to Val and Luke?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Bad analogy. Luke has plenty of feats and accolades to put him above Valkorion, and he also benefits from inheriting the potential of the Chosen One - .i.e very similar reasoning to why we can put Tenebrous that highly.
Vader has the bettet feats, (collapsing Cathedrals while half dead, decades before his prime) the better accolades, ( being stated as one of the most powerful Sith/ Force sensitive ever, 80% Palpatine's power, being the second most being in a galaxy that includes Gethzerion, Joruus C'baoth, Black Hole, etc) And even with his potential cut down -- he's still the Chosen One.
So how is the analogy bad?
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
my point was none of this proves Tenebrous is above Vader at all.
We can hardly "prove" anything in SW vs. debating. We can just establish that our model is more probable than not, which is enough. Nobody's building bridges on this information.
Who cares? He obviously didn't come anywhere near reaching that potential, as he isn't anywhere near two times more powerful than Sidious --- if he is at all. We can all pretty much agree combatively speaking, Val and Luke raw power share a good deal of parity.
It's kind of weird that you call out Nova for not "definitely proving" anything, but then vaguely claim that Valk and Luke share a great deal of parity because Luke didn't reach his full potential, which is both a double standard and a bizarre non-sequitur.
Luke may not have unlocked all of his potential, but there's reasonable grounds to think that he unlocked enough of it by FotJ to be beyond Valkorion, perhaps substantially.
So again; why can't the same argument you used for Tenebrous being above Vader with the knowledge + time spent mastering and whatever other garbage apply to Val and Luke?
If all we knew about Luke were that he were a Force sensitive former farmboy, sure. But the information about his potential, his feats and his accolades outweigh that disparity.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader has the bettet feats, (collapsing Cathedrals while half dead, decades before his prime) the better accolades, ( being stated as one of the most powerful Sith/ Force sensitive ever, 80% Palpatine's power, being the second most being in a galaxy that includes Gethzerion, Joruus C'baoth, Black Hole, etc) And even with his potential cut down -- he's still the Chosen One.So how is the analogy bad?
He doesn't necessarily have better accolades, he just has more - Tenebrous's accolade from the Rule of Two powerscaling is more powerful.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader being at 80% of his potential would still be 60% more powerful than Sidious, making this argument ****ing retarded no matter how you spin it.
You're obviously not following the discussion, because that's not my argument. Nowhere did I or Lucas say Vader's potential become 80% of his former potential (200% of Sidious'😉. I interpreted that quote as saying Vader's potential went from being 200% of Sidious' to 80% of Sidious'. It's pretty clear what Lucas said; we're just discussing what he means by it.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He doesn't necessarily have better accolades, he just has more - Tenebrous's accolade from the Rule of Two powerscaling is more powerful.
ROT powerscaling only makes sense if we had any idea how powerful any of the of the other Banite Sith are. We have no idea how powrrful they are but per demonstrations of their power we know Vader and Plagueis are leagues above them in the force. Vader also is still the chosen one and still had vastly better force feats than even his Younger self who decimated Dooku, quantifiably there isn't much of a basis to suggest Tenebrous can beat Vader when Vader can be easily suggested to have been superior to everyone from Bane onward given his showings and his accolades
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Earth to moron; my point was none of this proves Tenebrous is above Vader at all. Literally, none of it does. It's all speculation and nothing definitive. Use you brain for once, sweety.
Do you really want to talk about using a brain? You're still calling this speculation when it's proven that Tenebrous is more powerful than any of his predecessors and spent over a hundred years studying the dark side. It's not hard to imagine that he mastered his potential, and that's all I was saying since you implied that the RoT quotes referred to raw and not mastered power.
Now, as you mentioned in one of your later posts, this does hinge on where you rank Bane, which, last I checked, wasn't very far from Vader. The idea that nine centuries and thirty or so generations of improvements doesn't bring Tenebrous above Vader is pretty laughable.
Carthage has Vader way above Bane, so it's not that implausible that he still has Vader above Tenebrous. But you? Unless you've changed your stance on the matter, you have Bane reasonably close to Vader, which means Tenebrous has to be more powerful than Vader. I'm fine with you putting Vader over Tenebrous if you suddenly think that Vader >>>>>>>> Bane.
Who cares? He obviously didn't come anywhere near reaching that potential, as he isn't anywhere near two times more powerful than Sidious --- if he is at all.
That's your interpretation. Moreover, we don't know what Valkorion's raw power/potential is in relation to Sidious'.
You're putting words in my mouth, by the way. I never said time spent studying the Force solely determines your power. Another crucial factor is the cap you have on your power as well - ie. potential. If Valkorion doesn't have the potential of Luke or Sidious, he can spend as much time as he wants studying the Force and he won't get there. Studying the Force allows you to realize your potential, not transcend it.
We can all pretty much agree combatively speaking, Val and Luke raw power share a good deal of parity.
Based on what? What proves that Valkorion's raw power is a rival for Luke's? As you just said, Valkorion had a much, much longer time to hone his powers, so if his feats are only roughly a match for Luke's, then by this logic, Valkorion's potential is nowhere near Luke's.
So again; why can't the same argument you used for Tenebrous being above Vader with the knowledge + time spent mastering and whatever other garbage apply to Val and Luke?
That you can so quickly dismiss people's arguments as cancer and garbage and what not and still not know what their actual argument is is laughable.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Being 80% Palpatine's power > shitty RoT speculation. Not to mention, the whole argument hinges on where one ranks Darth Bane in relation to Vader from the get- go.
You haven't been able to quantify what 80% of Palpatine's power is, so no, it doesn't put him above Tenebrous. You've avoided telling me what 80% of Sidious' power is the whole time and yet you're still bringing it up.