HoT vs Kit Fisto

Started by Ziggystardust9 pages
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You've mistaken anger for amusement friend, now I look forward to your AIDS-tier response. 🙂

You seem to have calmed down now, yes. But the abrupt dismissal beforehand didn't do much to veil that blatant vitriol. If you could just keep those mood-swings stable, then I see no reason why this can't be an insightful, enjoyable and more importantly, safe experience for both of us.

Which doesn't necessarily translate into better duelists, not when you account for hundreds of potential instructors dying on the battlefield, the need for practical killing forms vs more complex techniques they have not the time to develop, and the fact that they lost vast amounts of knowledge and instructional material during the Sacking of Coruscant.

So essentially Beniboying, having a group of individuals more prepped for battle and more focused lightsaber-to-lightsaber engagements... doesn't make them better than those who're almost solely training for blasters? There isn't even the need to Strawman this. You want to avoid something that should be common sense, that could be compared to the most obvious analogies, and disregard it because... personal bias? Yes, I'm going to assume the bygone Jedi were better than their successors, because it's the most logical and simple assumption, and one that doesn't require arm-chair theory to disprove. The fact is, The Old Republic Jedi and Sith had to experience far harsher environments, even in infancy. Jedi Kindergartens like Thython, are already a breeding ground for more danger than most PT Jedi will ever experience. Occams Razor Beni. The simplest explanation, the one with the fewest assumptions will trump anything else. And you want to accuse others of conjecture? Laughable.

Imagine being the key term as this is a nonsensical fantasy. Even in their day Dooku & Windu were prodigies; and having been recognised as some of the greatest lightsaber masters the Order has ever produced, are clearly not at all common.

They're recognized as some of the most skilled among their piers, but that doesn't make them special in the bigger picture. It makes them big - well trained - fish fighting in a small pond of backsratchers.

After the Sith War? You mean when the Jedi Order had all but been decimated? And during the New Sith Empire period? You mean the Republic Dark Ages when they'd been reduced to conscripting children and using medieval weaponry? Unlikely.

After the Exar Kun War Beni, and they weren't all but decimated there.

On the other hand the peak of the Jedi golden age, when they'd had 1,000 years of unprecedented peace to develop and improve on their combat techniques in preparation for the next Sith incursion, that produced many Jedi regarded as some of the best in the Order's history, seems like a strong candidate.

Advancement of techniques? Let's see, there is the evolved version of Juyo used by three people and restricted to everyone else. That's it. The theory of the next sith excursion is contradicted by 'Labyrinth of evil' stating that the Jedi were comfortable in their era of galactic peace-time and hadn't the second thought for Sith intrusion. Which is why they were focusing on diplomacy, study, other non-violent means and hadn't fought anyone for a thousand years.

Which as has already been pointed out, was just as frequent in the Old Republic era.

There is nothing in the TOR on par with the humiliation Jango dished-out on Galadrian.

And and as we know from the Great Jensaarai, "those exaggerated sweeping slashes" are the trademark of somebody who doesn't no the next thing about lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

Unlike you Beni, I don't take solace in nitpicking combat-choreography. If you want to stick with Jensarai's rationalizations for why the producers want to make things look as special as they can, than all the better for my point. The Idea still stands, though.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So essentially Beniboying, having a group of individuals more prepped for battle and more focused lightsaber-to-lightsaber engagements... doesn't make them better than those who're almost solely training for blasters? There isn't even the need to Strawman this. You want to avoid something that should be common sense, that could be compared to the most obvious analogies, and disregard it because... personal bias? Yes, I'm going to assume the bygone Jedi were better than their successors, because it's the most logical and simple assumption, and one that doesn't require arm-chair theory to disprove. The fact is, The Old Republic Jedi and Sith had to experience far harsher environments, even in infancy. Jedi Kindergartens like Thython, are already a breeding ground for more danger than most PT Jedi will ever experience. Occams Razor Beni. The simplest explanation, the one with the fewest assumptions will trump anything else. And you want to accuse others of conjecture? Laughable.

👆

In TOR, Jedi Padawans have more combat experience than most Republic veterans.

It would be plausible to assume TOR Jedi are better duelists than PT Jedi if we hadn't actually seen PT Jedi in action against other saber wielders. But we have, and that pretty much makes it a moot point.

Maul was trained by Sidious as the ultimate weapon of destruction and as an extremely skilled saber duelist, and he's only slightly above Obi-Wan. It doesn't get more clear-cut than that.

OP should kill himself.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He was powerful enough to tank a ****ing lightsaber strike and collapse the Dark Temple, so shut up already about how he was so weakened a combatant weaker than Fisto could take him, because that clearly isn't true.

He didn't tank shit, he died from that strike. And he collapsed the temple when he was incorporeal.

Defeating someone who collapses Temples for lulz while also being weakened would make the HoT Vader tier, yet a more powerful, not weakened version of HoT was nothing next to Revan who is Vader tier.

I'm not saying Fisto wins, but using the Vitiate fight to reach the conclusion HoT wins is cringe worthy since that fight is so unquantifiable.

👆

HoTlander tho...

Originally posted by Petrus
It would be plausible to assume TOR Jedi are better duelists than PT Jedi [B]if we hadn't actually seen PT Jedi in action against other saber wielders. But we have, and that pretty much makes it a moot point. [/B]

Nah, the PT jedi were trained to refight the Battle of Russan, e.g. lightsaber wielding opponents.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nah, the PT jedi were trained to refight the Battle of Russan, e.g. lightsaber wielding opponents.

Even if they weren't, what we've seen from them so far pretty much trumps the 'TOR Jedi were better duelists because war' argument.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He didn't tank shit, he died from that strike.

Aside from the fact that he's still alive after that strike :/

"I will not be contained. I cannot be redeemed. Death is all that remains and you will not kill me."

"But I felt nothing... you haven't killed him. Strike! Do it now!"

Guy seems pretty alive to me.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And he collapsed the temple when he was incorporeal.

He does that shit even if you don't kill him... which is either of the lightside options, which are both more likely than the dark side option and two out of the three options lol

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Defeating someone who collapses Temples for lulz while weakened would make the HoT Vader tier, yet a more powerful, not weakened version of HoT was nothing next to Revan who is Vader tier.

Hardly for the lulz, but he's still an extremely powerful opponent.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I'm not saying Fisto wins, but using the Vitiate fight to reach the conclusion HoT wins is cringe worthy since that fight is so unquantifiable.

It can be quantified if you observe Vitiate's feats in that state lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Aside from the fact that he's still alive after that strike :/

"I will not be contained. I cannot be redeemed. Death is all that remains and you will not kill me."

"But I felt nothing... you haven't killed him. Strike! Do it now!"

Guy seems pretty alive to me.

He's dying tho, and actually dies even if you pick lightside 😬

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He does that shit even if you don't kill him... which is either of the lightside options, which are both more likely than the dark side option and two out of the three options lol

And he still goes incorporeal before collapsing the temple.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Hardly for the lulz, but he's still an extremely powerful opponent.

It can be quantified if you observe Vitiate's feats in that state lol

Not in his corporeal form...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He's dying tho, and actually dies even if you pick lightside 😬

Yeah because he an heroes and collapses a ****ing temple on himself.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And he still goes incorporeal before collapsing the temple.

Not in his corporeal form...


No he doesn't, he's lying on the ground moving still LOL

lel watch the video again

Maybe you should watch it again. The Hero specifically states that he'll live and stand trial in the Lightside option and he doesn't go incorporeal at all in either option.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He didn't tank shit, he died from that strike. And he collapsed the temple when he was incorporeal.

Defeating someone who collapses Temples for lulz while also being weakened would make the HoT Vader tier, yet a more powerful, not weakened version of HoT was nothing next to Revan who is Vader tier.

I'm not saying Fisto wins, but using the Vitiate fight to reach the conclusion HoT wins is cringe worthy since that fight is so unquantifiable.

Vitiate was still alive and would remain so if he hadn't of collapsed the temple on himself. Thats why one of the options you can pick is to try to capture him alive and bring him in for trial.

Gosh, maybe...... Revan isn't Vader tier then. 😐 I mean, in what way do you think an acceptable argument is "this feat would make a character more powerful than I think they are, so its not valid"?

No it isn't.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You seem to have calmed down now, yes. But the abrupt dismissal beforehand didn't do much to veil that blatant vitriol. If you could just keep those mood-swings stable, then I see no reason why this can't be an insightful, enjoyable and more importantly, safe experience for both of us.
Friend I'll stop mocking your opinions when they stop being laughable, looking over your response that won't be any time soon. 😉
So essentially Beniboying, having a group of individuals more prepped for battle and more focused lightsaber-to-lightsaber engagements... doesn't make them better than those who're almost solely training for blasters? There isn't even the need to Strawman this.
And yet you just did by suggesting the Jedi of the PT era were "almost solely trained for blasters", they were not, instead lightsaber to lightsaber combat played a key part in their curriculum. This is self-evident from say reading the Jedi Path, which puts just as much emphasis on saber to saber combat as it does blast deflection in describing the seven forms. Each Jedi was also required to defeat a holographic simulation of an ancient Sith Lord to pass their trials and Jedi sparring sessions were commonplace.

Does it nonetheless stand to reason that on average the PT Jedi were more focused and therefore less equipped for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat than their predecessors? Certainly, but that doesn't mean the art was neglected, instead we have several masterful lightsaber duelists such as Sora Bulq, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Quinlan Vos, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Plo Koon etc. etc. whose demonstrated talent in saber to saber combat proves that 1. it was still being practiced 2. it was therefore still being advanced across the ages.

Something the Revenge of the Sith novelisation plainly attests to:

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi - The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

You want to avoid something that should be common sense, that could be compared to the most obvious analogies, and disregard it because... personal bias? Yes, I'm going to assume the bygone Jedi were better than their successors, because it's the most logical and simple assumption, and one that doesn't require arm-chair theory to disprove. The fact is, The Old Republic Jedi and Sith had to experience far harsher environments, even in infancy. Jedi Kindergartens like Thython, are already a breeding ground for more danger than most PT Jedi will ever experience. Occams Razor Beni. The simplest explanation, the one with the fewest assumptions will trump anything else. And you want to accuse others of conjecture? Laughable.
You mean the most convenient for you? Dismissing the various other factors at play and focusing on those that best suit your argument is to oversimplify the issue, and is not an application of Occam's Razor, but rather confirmation bias. And none of the other factors I've raised are based on conjecture either. So I'd appreciate it if you address them, or alternatively offer up a concession. 👆
They're recognized as some of the most skilled among their piers, but that doesn't make them special in the bigger picture. It makes them big - well trained - fish fighting in a small pond of backsratchers.
No, in history. Which yes, makes them special in the bigger picture.
After the Exar Kun War Beni, and they weren't all but decimated there.
Where they were decimated by Darth Revan and the Sith Triumvirate. 😬
Advancement of techniques? Let's see, there is the evolved version of Juyo used by three people and restricted to everyone else. That's it. The theory of the next sith excursion is contradicted by 'Labyrinth of evil' stating that the Jedi were comfortable in their era of galactic peace-time and hadn't the second thought for Sith intrusion. Which is why they were focusing on diplomacy, study, other non-violent means and hadn't fought anyone for a thousand years.
That we know of, you realise the bulk of PT canon only covers a few decades at most? There are 900+ unaccounted years in which any measure of advancement could and were likely made. And that's without accounting for the thousands of years between the TOR era and the Ruusan Reformation. Colour me unconvinced that over the course of millennia only one significant advancement were made, when the Jedi were, according to you, supposed to be the most complacent. That's an extreme logical unlikelihood.

As for what's stated in LoE, I'm appreciate a quote as we are dealing with the same author here. Nonetheless while it's self evident that the Jedi had grown complacent by the point of the PT trilogy, we've little reason to assume this complacency was present over the entire 1,000 year period.

There is nothing in the TOR on par with the humiliation Jango dished-out on Galadrian.
So the Jedi Order's Battlemaster getting punked by a bounty hunter, isn't more humiliating than Jango taking out some no named mooks? Mmkay.
Unlike you Beni, I don't take solace in nitpicking combat-choreography. If you want to stick with Jensarai's rationalizations for why the producers want to make things look as special as they can, than all the better for my point. The Idea still stands, though.
Actually analyzing the respect eras through choreography does nothing to support your point. Not only does the Jensaarai's rationalisation suggest the TOR Jedi are equally inept in lightsaber combat, but if we for a moment dismiss his fanon and look at the facts, the PT Jedi, even when compared with TOR's cinematic trailers, fight with perceivably greater finesse.

We also know that the rationalisation behind the PT choreography was to, in George Lucas' words, establish the era as the "prime of the Jedi", so the fact that the TOR Jedi visually do not compare speaks volumes as to their inferiority. 🙂

Neph 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe you should watch it again. The Hero specifically states that he'll live and stand trial in the Lightside option and he doesn't go incorporeal at all in either option.

kek, what do you think happens here then? https://youtu.be/zoFNJ7UophU?t=9m12s

You mean, right after Scourge says he's not dead and Vitiate says "I will not be your trophy"? I think he used the Force to destroy the temple while lying face down, humbled and defeated.

What the hell are we even talking about now?

Well if you read my last 6 words its fairly apparent that we're talking about disgraced ex-poster Gideon. Tragic.