HoT vs Kit Fisto

lol

Seriously, though, what's the debate over Vitiate's death about?

How cool Vitiate is. Dude tanked getting almost bisected.

So what's the stuff about collapsing the temple?

Whether or not he was dead when he collapsed the temple. He wasn't.

I've always argued that, but I'm pretty sure he dies in the DS version before the temple comes down. Not that it matters - as long as it happens in one version (ie. LS), then it's worth counting.

Also, those must have been some pretty strong quakes to bring down the Temple.

Tbh his body disintegrates as the temple begins to collapse, seems pretty dead to me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've always argued that, but I'm pretty sure he dies in the DS version before the temple comes down. Not that it matters - as long as it happens in one version (ie. LS), then it's worth counting.

Also, those must have been some pretty strong quakes to bring down the Temple.

He doesn't, Scourge says "I can sense him. He's fading, but not gone" before he does it. Meaning that he was still alive after getting bisected and having a pillar dropped on him.

And he'd be capable of far greater feats at the start of the fight, which the HoT still tanked and beat him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh his body disintegrates as the temple begins to collapse, seems pretty dead to me.

He doesn't actually. I'm watching and even though he does seem to disappear in dark energy you can still see him under it. Dem massive shoulder pads. 👆

Ah, I remember back when Tempest thought that Yoda would beat the Hero "with difficulty".

Originally posted by Nephthys
He doesn't actually. I'm watching and even though he does seem to disappear in dark energy you can still see him under it. Dem massive shoulder pads. 👆

Regardless it doesn't really matter, not only is it evident he flipped the termination switch himself (much like Palpatine did in DE) but he should be even weaker in incorporeal form.

Well, if the point was that the HoT had to contend with worse TK, I'm in agreement, though I find it strange that the Temple wasn't just called down beforehand. There's always the chance that Vitiate reserved his powers somewhat.

Why would Vitiate collapse his own temple as anything but a last resort?

Also as side note, is there any evidence that the entire structure was destroyed?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why would Vitiate collapse his own temple as anything but a last resort?

Also as side note, is there any evidence that the entire structure was destroyed?

1. True, but he would still be able to focus a greater amount of telekinetic power on the HoT, which is actually a very impressive showing for the HoT then.

2. Not sure. It's been ages since I've played it, and I haven't watched any videos of it recently. Does anybody know if it's still standing in the background when they leave? Too lazy to watch it again.

Well maybe it was achieved in a similar way to how Freedon Nadd caused a cave-in on Korriban, by triggering the energies of the nexus.

Certainly their is no particular implication of Vitiate having much control, he just causes the ceiling to fall in then pisses off.

And no, all we have is Scourge telling us the temple is collapsing, we only see the inner sanctum destroyed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ah, I remember back when Tempest thought that Yoda would beat the Hero "with difficulty".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Friend I'll stop mocking your opinions when they stop being laughable, looking over your response that won't be any time soon.

Mocking is fine. I regularly endorse graceful wit supporting clever undertones, but please note however, graceful wit is not the same as calling dissenting arguments aids, cancer or Justin Beiber. I’m sure you’re inventive enough to find some sarcastic riposte without coming off butthurt. But that has certainly not been the case here. I get it, you’re upset. And when one is upset he is incapable of judging aright, hence the stale humour.

And yet you just did by suggesting the Jedi of the PT era were "almost solely trained for blasters", they were not, instead lightsaber to lightsaber combat played a key part in their curriculum. This is self-evident from say reading the Jedi Path, which puts just as much emphasis on saber to saber combat as it does blast deflection in describing the seven forms. Each Jedi was also required to defeat a holographic simulation of an ancient Sith Lord to pass their trials and Jedi sparring sessions were commonplace.

The thing is, I didn’t just suggest they were solely trained for ranged weapons, and similarly ranged opponents, but also that much of their concentration was spent learning the artful magnetism required for diplomacy. This is certainly the case in The Phantom Menace, where our glowing protagonist and his short-sighted master are sent to resolve a crisis - oh my! A negotiation with an interstellar shipping and trade conglomerate…. at least they did well against the meme-worthy battledroids confronting them - meaning all that remote-blaster training didn’t go to waste. But unlike their ancient counterparts - for example - the Hero of Thython, the modern Jedi just weren’t birthed into combat. That’s not just considering his the Cold War between the Galactic Republic and the Sith Empire either. If we’re to take the best prodigies from both era’s and do a side-by-side comparison, the modernists come out of the deal woefully, for example, as a padawan the Hero and his peers were already dealing with an uprising of alchemically-enhanced monsters, of whom were both armed to the teeth and lead by a Dark Jedi. That same dark Jedi of course, met his end to a fast adapting HOT, wielding a god damned vibro-blade. At that age Dooku was doing... what exactly? To be perfectly honest, that single altercation was probably more exciting than the entirety of Dooku’s Jedi career.

Does it nonetheless stand to reason that on average the PT Jedi were more focused and therefore less equipped for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat than their predecessors? Certainly,

Concession accepted.

but that doesn't mean the art was neglected, instead we have several masterful lightsaber duelists such as Sora Bulq, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Quinlan Vos, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Plo Koon etc. etc. whose demonstrated talent in saber to saber combat proves that 1. it was still being practice 2. it was therefore still being advanced across the ages.

The movie era - from an outwards perspective - contains more names than any other time period. Yet - funnily enough - you can still count the characters worth giving a shit using 10 fingers, and even with regards to your list, there are only four or five worth mentioning, or even thinking about in any meaningful way. These are people who weren’t particularly trained well nor were they primed for combat, rather that their personal experiences shaped them to the becomedecent fighters. For example, Obi Wan only took up Soresu after witnessing Qui Gons death at the hands of Maul. He certainly wouldn’t have had the insight to master an entire philosophy, if he wasn’t thrown into the deep-end against the first Sith lord to re-appear after one-thousand years. The same goes for Vos, who went from loosing to Cad Bane in TCW to beating Dooku in Dark Disciple, but only once he left the order. Their progress clearly has nothing to do with some imaginary advancement of techniques among the Jed.

You mean the most convenient for you? Dismissing the various other factors at play and focusing on those that best suit your argument is to oversimplify the issue, and is not an application of Occam's Razor, but rather confirmation bias . And none of the other factors I've raised are based on conjecture either. So I'd appreciate it if you address them, or alternatively offer up a concession. 👆

Son. Leave the philosophical tools for people who know how, and when to use them. Please don’t make this another debate where I have to teach you the meanings of simple words and concepts, that would otherwise require a few seconds of google for any half-way intelligent person to understand. This is a case of Occams Razor, because my ideas are backed up across the board by a simple comparison of the facts, while yours require an endless amount of assumptions that can’t be found, or even logically inferred anywhere but in your own imagination. It’s very simple, all inference is, is a step of the mind, an intellectual act by which one concludes that something is true in light of something else’s being true. If you threaten me with a knife in your hand, I probably would infer that you mean to do me harm. If you tell me that Jedi born after 50bby aren’t prepared for combat as their ancient predecessors were, then I would infer the latter group are better at fighting. Right now, your argument is piggybacked on some illusory evolution that the seven forms could have had, but almost certainly didn't. And other than the obvious case with Vaapad, that is not an argument. There is no single style, form, or any one of the intricate "marks of contact", such as Choi Mai, Sokan and Trakata that were popular in modern times, that couldn’t be found in the era of Exar Kun. And even if there was - that is - if your complete horseshit of a theory actually had some truth to be found, it’s merely a case of something working in theory, but not in practice. They didn’t have much water to field-test their bad ass imaginary new forms.

As for what's stated in LoE, I'm appreciate a quote as we are dealing with the same author here. Nonetheless while it's self evident that the Jedi had grown complacent by the point of the PT trilogy

Conccesion accepted.

we've little reason to assume this complacency was present over the entire 1,000 year period.

Unless scores of Yoda-aged Jedi were roaming between those centuries and lived well into their 900’s during the Clone Wars, then this is not just a moot point, but one that is 180 degrees removed from what you’re attempting to drum up. Yes, early Ruusan-formation Jedi were living in the aftermath of some big war. Yes, their training would have been influenced by the looming threat of another sith-uprising. Which is why the Jedi Path notes how in 1000bby, younglings were discouraged from practicing Ataru, as it was prone to sloppy execution in the midst of duel. Fast-forward a millenia-later, and form IV is one of the most popular forms, with Dooku being almost the sole practitioner of Makashi, lamenting the weakness of Ataru, with its “ridiculous acrobatics”. So where is this 1000 year advancement of training? Let’s compare that with Jedi from the great galactic war, where the padawans themselves were shadowing the republic military in preparation to fight the sith, while Qui-gon and pals were doing rock-climbing challenges...

So the Jedi Order's Battlemaster getting punked by a bounty hunter, isn't more humiliating than Jango taking out some no named mooks?

Firstly, as I recall the title 'battlemaster', was not exclusive to one person during Swotor, all due to - once again - the type of environment they were bread from. And Yes, it is far less humiliating than Jango taking out... eight(?) of those mooks with his bare hands. And if we really want to mention embarrassing battlemasters, Cin 'one-hit-dead'Dralig anyone?

Mmkay. Actually analyzing the respect eras through choreography does nothing to support your point. Not only does the Jensaarai's rationalisation suggest the TOR Jedi are equally inept in lightsaber combat, but if we for a moment dismiss his fanon and look at the facts, the PT Jedi, even when compared with TOR's cinematic trailers, fight with perceivably greater finesse.We also know that the rationalisation behind the PT choreography was to, in George Lucas' words, establish the era as the "prime of the Jedi", so the fact that the TOR Jedi visually do not compare speaks
volumes as to their inferiority. 🙂 [/B]

You're wrong there, analyzing choreography speaks volumes to how increasingly desperate you are becoming.

TL DR; The comparison between Bastilla Shan and Dooku is probably an understatement for the former, and the Hero is easily stomping anyone from the PT era bar Zonakin.

Ziggy, I enjoy reading your attempts to troll, but bro nobody is taking you seriously.

Mythlord is a closet-swotorian 👆

There is no trolling, btw.

I hate most characters in SWTOR, with exceptions being Nox, Revan, Vaylin and Valkorion. The rest can all burn in hell for all I care.

That's all ready 4 more characters than I like. You massive fanboy.