Maul, Ahsoka, Kenobi & Luke vs. Kun, Droma & Nyriss

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Filoni said as much in a TCW preview, he explains that Anakin was essentially training Ahsoka to fight more like him.

Sounds fair, but do you have a quote?

Grievous developed his own unorthodox form of fighting, which never seems to resemble Djem So, and which Dooku was nonetheless expert in.

Dooku lambasted him in LoE for using "power moves", so he does make ample use of his strength.

Regardless the Count was hard pressed to defeat him at certain times, was he not?

Certain times, but the wording makes it clear that it's not for a majority of times.

When he had zero training in lightsaber combat, is that an example really worthy mentioning?

Yes, because then his blows would've been brute strength, and Dooku notes, IIRC.

Not when after being properly trained, he knocked Dooku on his ass...

I've taken that as bad positioning for Dooku and poor planning in allowing Savage to build up momentum, but whatever.

You mean Canon Grievous, who crushed Mandalorian iron...

Sure, but he's hardly consistent.

Ventress also overpowers him in an OCW comic as I recall. mmm

You mean when Grievous basically hadn't even learnt how to use a lightsaber yet? Ventress had Durge's help and was still losing - towards the end of the fight she seems to start getting enraged and ends up disarming Grievous, then gets choked into unconsciousness.

By Y: DR, Dooku regards Grievous as more formidable than Ventress.

@Beni:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I commend you on your effort Myth, you have fought gallantly, worthy of recognition in the archives of the Jedi Order.

But now, time to an hero it is finished. 🙂

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=79

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No friend, you are wrong. ❌

For example here Ahsoka contends with Vader without losing any ground:

Um, even then, we can visibly see she's going backwards. And this was, what, five seconds? Dooku fending off both Anakin and Obi-Wan while fatigued, out-of-composure and taken a back by their skill after fooled into a false sense of security, is better, tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And that was when she was fatigued, the first half of the fight happens off panel, a full 50 seconds of it, in which Ahsoka is only driven a short distance from the entrance. Indicating that she was not on the back foot the entire time there either.

It seems more than a short distance to me, and given the speed with which they were fighting, 50 seconds of being driven back would be accurate. And Dooku while fatigued also deflected Anakin's attacks, again with the circumstances I listed above, and his overhand chop was described as "slidding across Dooku's defense".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now as for your overall assessment, a very impressive effort; and though I concede that Dooku was disadvantaged in that extract that I raised, the fact remains that fatigued or not, he still required vast amounts of power to parry Anakin's attacks and even more besides to block them. This aspect should remain constant no matter how much Force reserves Dooku possessed. All that would change is the extent to which it exhausted him, which in his present state was very much.

Well, if Dooku was facing Anakin alone without those disadvantages, he'd have more reserves to draw from, thus being able to put in more strength in his parries and have an easier time deflecting the assault. Much like that, he'd also be able to find a way to dispatch Anakin -- via martial ability, lightning, or any other way, which the novel clearly shows he can do -- and recompose/refill his reserves. So he wouldn't have been driven back as conclusively, and would've been able to land in more hits of his own. Perhaps take advantage of a defensive lapse and land a killing blow 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
However, while Dooku was already fatigued, we should remember that Ahsoka simply isn't as powerful a Force user as Dooku, and therefore does not possess his reserves. So that mitigates Dooku's disadvantage somewhat. On top of that a) as a Djem So/Ataru duelist, she would have been meeting Vader's attacks largely head on (i.e. blocking them) as opposed to deflecting them in the style of Makashi b) did so against a considerably stronger opponent.

Indeed, Tano is less powerful/masterful in the Force than the Count is. But, much like that, Dooku had to face two enemies of considerable skill that are, certainly, superior to Vader collectively. And he managed to land hits on them, as oppose to Ahsoka only ever landing a hit via cheapshot on Vader, or a inconsequential Force Push.

A) Dooku was also at times meeting Anakin's attacks head-on, although less frequently than Ahsoka. But it's also worth noting that Tano, as a Djem So master, had a perfect form to exercise her own strength. Dooku, however, didn't. We know that the Count is insanely strong -- he dominates Vos, Asajj and Kenobi and dispatches Anakin with celerity. But his form isn't suited for abusing such strength in combat, and when he does, it's usually with a one-handed grip that even further lessens the amount of strength he can abuse.

B) But with less negative circumstances on her part, and positive circumstances on Vader's.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point being? If we condense all these factors together, and stack them against Dooku being tired, and lacking in "composure", they more than balance one another out, and on that basis I would argue that this extract, and Ahsoka's duel with Vader, are yes, equivalent.

Then you agree Dooku's and Tano's showings are equivalent? I'd personally put Dooku's ahead since I consider Obi/Annie duo > Vader.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In which case we return to the question of who handle Vader/Anakin's attacks better, and I would again say it was undoubtedly Ahsoka, and by a considerable margin. If each blow she blocked of Vader's was aging her a proverbial decade, she wouldn't have survived the first 30 seconds, let alone almost two minutes, and as Joker rightly pointed out, that last attack should have cleaved her in half, she ****ing blocked it backhanded, then kept fighting.

Right, Tano does seem to handle it better, but given the negative circumstances of Dooku's own performance, and his form being less suited for such engagements than Ahsoka, it's no doubt Ahsoka would perform better. But in the context of who’d win in a fight between her and Dooku: she doesn’t have the strength nor the stamina to exploit Dooku’s weaknesses. I would say only Anakin/Vader+ level beings can do that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now to address these other instances in which Dooku wasn't on the back foot. All I'm seeing is the junior novelisation (besides the blade lock, which I will in a moment revisit) where "Down the long length of the room they fought, neither one able to gain an advantage", but that occurs only after Dooku gimps his powers through Dun Moch, whereas just previously he is described as expressly driving Dooku back.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Moving on, your first example over a minute into the fight, by which point Ahsoka was suffering major fatigue.
And in the second instance has already been covered, as considering Ahsoka has just come out of a marathon engagement, in which she fell several stories, before throwing herself at Vader in an attack that almost cut off is head, the fact that she is able to block this attack at all, let alone with her back turned, is nothing but impressive.

When she has the Force to protect her, I doubt falling that height would’ve badly damaged her, and it doesn’t seem that way, tbh. Dooku has fallen from greater heights and was unharmed:

And she also had more than enough time to refill her Force reserves before bullrushing Vader, and landing a cheapshot shouldn't have exhausted her. Honestly, the only thing making this feat of her impressive is inferior leverage in comparison to Vader.

That was part 1, here's part 2:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now in regards to your examples, the key word is leverage, something Dooku possessed in both instances, in the first because he had the high ground, and in the second because he was playing Anakin and Kenobi rather well. Without those advantages Dooku didn't perform so well, case in point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQATBFIZ13o&t=2m26s

I knew you were going to use that, and I came prepared. But first, let's get this out of the way: leverage. While he indeed did have leverage against Anakin in my first example, my second example shows him without such benefit. In fact, he would've needed to act quick in order to stop Kenobi's attack, and he didn't really play with Kenobi to make him interfere with Skywalker's attacks, he pushed back one, then the other.

Here, if anything, he's at a disadvantage since he needs to multitask and quickly drive off one of the assailants to he can fight the other. And also, why does it matter if Dooku has leverage? Dooku is a master of finding and exploiting superior positioning juxtaposed to his opponents and then defeating them with alacrity. In fact, to him position and leverage were as natural as breathing:

Taken from: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
He is a fencer. Leverage, position, advantage—they are as natural to him as breathing.

So if he can exploit leverage against Anakin, why not against someone less skilled like Ahsoka?

Next up is your example; despite Anakin clearly becoming enraged, and Dooku just wanting to get back his ship, Dooku didn't have trouble with Skywalker's strength or skill. Quite the contrary, there were moments where he bladelocked with Anakin without a problem before pushing him backwards.

What Anakin did was gain leverage over Dooku by kicking him then standing atop him. At this point, the Count was on the floor, being choked and still managed to contend with Anakin pretty well in the bladelock to the point where he then pushed him back before frying him with lightning and then TKing. This is easily comparable to what Ahsoka did to Vader near the end of their fight.

And Fact File notes how Anakin didn't really defeat Dooku, saying he never technically lost during any fight the Clone Wars:

Taken from: The Official Star Wars Fact File(2013/14 edition) #18
While Dooku only fought occasionally with his lightsaber during the Clone Wars, he was never fully bested. He achieved the near impossible by wounding Master Yoda during a fight on Vjun, before making a tactical withdrawl.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, this was before Anakin grew vastly in power, and then grew even more as Vader, so using TCW as evidence is only a wasted effort on your part.

Well, actually, Anakin grew vastly since Ahsoka left the Order, that is what the quote entails. And the two occasions that Anakin fought Dooku during this power growth -- one closer to Ahsoka leaving, the other closer to RotS -- Anakin was either on the losing side(Kenobi and he kept being outwitted and pushed back by Dooku) or the advantage was constantly shifting. So, while Anakin did surpass Dooku by RotS, it's not by any substantial margin IMO.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not the point, quite the opposite. Instead in a blade lock, where momentum is less of a factor, Dooku is able to perform rather well, because he is at liberty to bring all his Force power to bear in strength. However in a more common exchange of blows momentum (which Dooku is ineffective at generating) is a much bigger factor, and he has to balance strength with speed, precision etc., he underperforms, and yes against an individual such as Skywalker, finds himself woefully outmatched, and at no point is he shown to hold his ground (without the use of Dun Moch).

Indeed, I agree that Dooku isn't one built for a rapid exchange of blows. But, he's more than compensated for this. He has multiple tools at his disposal that allowed him to gain leverage and, indeed an advantage over Skywalker many times in the past and at least once during their duel in RotS that was filled with circumstances against Tyranus. If he can do so against a more skilled, and stronger Anakin, then I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do this against Tano.

Especially when Ahsoka is less skilled and less powerful juxtaposed to Dooku, and certainly weaker than Anakin, Mace, Grievous, etc.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now as for your point regarding Yoda, while an impressive showing, there is little indication that he met Yoda's strength head on. Instead he's described (and seen) to be "parrying brilliantly", deflecting Yoda's attacks away from himself, something he struggles to do against a Djem So duelist, which Yoda is not.

Now is Yoda strong? Of course, even stronger than Anakin, but undoubtedly in combat he favours speed and agility over strength. Which considering his stature is really not something he can bring to bear in any meaningful way, he's a fraction of Dooku's size, and has absolutely no leverage at all, he literally has to leap just to reach him. So to a Djem So stylist like Anakin or Ahsoka, it's an apples and oranges comparison.

The quote regarding parrying Yoda's strikes specifically kept mentioning Dooku's strength and how his strikes were backed by the power of the Force. It seems to be imply he could at least hold off Yoda somewhat in a bladelock. And Yoda's inferior leverage was never a problem when he needed to use strength, otherwise he wouldn't have been overpowering Darth Sidious(someone who physically outmatches Savage and Maul) during some sections of their duel. I don't see how, if this wasn't a problem against Sidious, it would be a problem against Dooku.

But fair enough on the comparison between Yoda and Djem So stylists. But that's hardly the only comparison I have. Another great example is Dooku being unmoved and casually blocking Mace Windu's bullrush(which is strong enough to create shockwaves that knock back MagnaGuards):

In fact, not only does Dooku simply block this assault with no issue, he proceeds to, after a few exchanges with Mace, put Windu on the defensive -- a stark contrast to what happened in the first panel of the fight where Mace was the aggressor:

This clearly demonstrates great strength and suggests that Ahsoka isn't winning by way of her physical superiority, which I'm sorta questioning, tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
This seems like conjecture. Vader's connection to the dark side strengthening doesn't make him... stronger? I don't think so. And let's not ignore his cybernetic enhancements also, they too notably enhanced his physicals.

Vader's connection to the Dark Side was indeed strengthened, but that doesn't neccessarily mean he's more powerful/stronger. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have some of the strongest connections to the Force in the entire mythos, stronger than Vader's even, yet you'd agree with me beings like Dooku or Vader would ragdoll them.

He's certainly closer to the Dark Side than he was before, certainly greater than the hindered and emotional mess on Mustafar. Yet that doesn't make him considerably stronger.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And considering only 8 years into his tenure as a Sith Lord, he's already overpowering a Lylek queen, again yes we have every reason to assume he's grown considerably stronger.

That's great. But Kenobi was holding back the full strength of a Sarlaac trying to eat him and bent Grievous' arm like a cheap spoon(Grievous having some insane strength feats like casually tearing through durasteel, killing Jedi and Clones by simply kicking them), yet got dominated by a hindered Anakin and incapacitated by Dooku strength-wise. I'd say that rivals Vader's Lylek Queen feat, tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean Canon Grievous, who crushed Mandalorian iron...

Ventress also overpowers him in an OCW comic as I recall. mmm

Just thought I'd mention this, but that was more of a piercing feat of Grievous' claws, rather than full-on strength. And Asajj was enraged and only ended up Force Pushing him before getting choked out like a beyatch.

Looking forwards to your reply, Beni.

OK so for some reason that Mace bullrushing Dooku image isn't appearing and I can't edit my post, so I'll just post it again here:

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds fair, but do you have a quote?

Dooku lambasted him in LoE for using "power moves", so he does make ample use of his strength.

I think it goes without saying that Ahsoka is anything but sloppy in her application of strength.

Certain times, but the wording makes it clear that it's not for a majority of times.

Yes, because then his blows would've been brute strength, and Dooku notes, IIRC.

Sure, but he's hardly consistent.

You mean when Grievous basically hadn't even learnt how to use a lightsaber yet? Ventress had Durge's help and was still losing - towards the end of the fight she seems to start getting enraged and ends up disarming Grievous, then gets choked into unconsciousness.

By Y: DR, Dooku regards Grievous as more formidable than Ventress.

Regardless the part I referred to was essentially a slugging match in which I doubt skill played much of a part, and she has Grievous on the back foot:

And Ahsoka should be quite a bit stronger than that. As for Grievous becoming more formidable, only in skill not physical ability.

Originally posted by MythLord

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have some of the strongest connections to the Force in the entire mythos, stronger than Vader's even,

I'm curious; what are you talking about?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm curious; what are you talking about?

Them being so in-tune with the Force, they essentially gained immortality? Until Vader was turned back to the Light, he was incapable of doing that. Their will and connection to the Force is obviously among the strongest in the mythos.

Originally posted by MythLord
Them being so in-tune with the Force, they essentially gained immortality? Until Vader was turned back to the Light, he was incapable of doing that. Their will and connection to the Force is obviously among the strongest in the mythos.

Or they discovered and learned a particular ability.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"We wanted to use the reverse grip of holding a lightsaber for Ahsoka because she was alien. Anakin now, as her master, you might notice this as we move on in the series, is actually training her out of that style, to be more like his style."

Interesting, but resembling Djem So hardly means it is Djem So. I'll accept that there's more of an emphasis on strength in Ahsoka's new form, but still not as much as with Anakin's, not to mention she still lacks RotS Anakin's sheer strength and Force reserves. She won't be doing anything similar to what he did.

And then lectures him on finesse, artfulness etc. evidently his point being that Grievous' brute force tactics were sloppy, and therefore ineffective against a proper master of form. Right, again sloppy and therefore easily deflected by one so skilled as the Count.

I'm referring to Tyranus' own strength here, not skill. Blocking raw strength blows is still a feat of strength.

Besides, Grievous' "sloppy" strength works plenty well against many supposedly master swordsmen - Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, Aayla Secura, etc.

I think it goes without saying that Ahsoka is anything but sloppy in her application of strength.

She's also not as strong as either of them.

Sure, but evidently his advantage over Grievous was not comfortable.

If he's not hard-pressed, then I'd define that as comfortable.

Within Canon he's fairly consistent. Regardless it's one continuity and that's probably one of his top strength feats, that and his TCW feet of smashing away piles of crates with his saber swings.

Well, Canon Grievous is even less refined than Legends Grievous, and you seemed to think that sloppiness would reduce the effectiveness of his strength-based blows considerably, so Ahsoka/Ventress etc's ability to hold their own against his strikes would also be reduced in value. You can't have it both ways.

Considering this is post-Grievous pwnage at Hypori, perhaps not? And this is just as early into Ventress' training as well.

I thought that was not too long after Grievous reconstruction? I might be wrong, though.

Regardless the part I referred to was essentially a slugging match in which I doubt skill played much of a part, and she has Grievous on the back foot:

She's clearly enraged there and won through a Force Push anyway.

And Ahsoka should be quite a bit stronger than that. As for Grievous becoming more formidable, only in skill not physical ability.

Suggesting that Ventress' physical ability supersedes Pre-TCW Grievous' is beyond laughable.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or they discovered and learned a particular ability.

Friend that was after they died, and literally merged with the Force.

Prior to that Vader definitely had the stronger connection, as did Anakin.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Friend that was after they died, and literally merged with the Force.

Prior to that Vader definitely had the stronger connection, as did Anakin.

But to come back as a spirit and literally escape death you'd need to have some insane connection to the Force, one that beings like Horak-Mul, Simus and Maw have, yet beings like Dooku and, lets say, Mace Windu don't.

But I doubt anyone would argue Horak, Simus or flucking Maw can rival or surpass Mace and Dooku in terms of power and combative use of the Force

Originally posted by SunRazer
Interesting, but resembling Djem So hardly means it is Djem So. I'll accept that there's more of an emphasis on strength in Ahsoka's new form, but still not as much as with Anakin's, not to mention she still lacks RotS Anakin's sheer strength and Force reserves. She won't be doing anything similar to what he did.

And no but I never suggested Dooku would get destroyed.

I'm referring to Tyranus' own strength here, not skill. Blocking raw strength blows is still a feat of strength.

Besides, Grievous' "sloppy" strength works plenty well against many supposedly master swordsmen - Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, Aayla Secura, etc.

Besides the fact they were exhausted, those aren't the names Dooku listed, and in that particular fight Grievous relies far more heavily on his unorthodox combat techniques.

She's also not as strong as either of them.

If he's not hard-pressed, then I'd define that as comfortable.

Well, Canon Grievous is even less refined than Legends Grievous, and you seemed to think that sloppiness would reduce the effectiveness of his strength-based blows considerably, so Ahsoka/Ventress etc's ability to hold their own against his strikes would also be reduced in value. You can't have it both ways.

I thought that was not too long after Grievous reconstruction? I might be wrong, though.

She's clearly enraged there and won through a Force Push anyway.

Suggesting that Ventress' physical ability supersedes Pre-TCW Grievous' is beyond laughable.

Originally posted by MythLord
But to come back as a spirit and literally escape death you'd need to have some insane connection to the Force, one that beings like Horak-Mul, Simus and Maw have, yet beings like Dooku and, lets say, Mace Windu don't.

But I doubt anyone would argue Horak, Simus or flucking Maw can rival or surpass Mace and Dooku in terms of power and combative use of the Force

I'll respond tomorrow.

That said, Asajj is clearly enraged there, and logically by copious amounts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No you don't, all we know about the criteria to become a Force ghost is that you have to "know yourself, your true self, then let go", according to the Force priestesses. Nothing is said about having an "insane connection to the Force", which would yes, give you equally insane powers, that's how the Force works.

Again, a strong connection doesn't always equal strong combative power. We know Anakin's connection to the Force is the strongest in the mythos overall(not including the entities), yet he's hardly the most powerful character in terms of combative power. We know Yaddle shares Yoda's affinity/connection to the Force and has achieved complete unity with it, yet canonical sources told us Yoda > her. We know beings like Simus have a connection to the Force and willpower strong enough to survive decapitation, but I doubt he's more powerful than Dooku, or Vader, or even Maul.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Regarding Vos, I'm referring to Legends, not Canon, of course.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's the likes of Tiin, Kolar and Kit, but yeah.

Originally posted by MythLord
The Force Priestesses said that to Yoda as he was about to face his Dark Side, IIRC. It isn't neccessarily the only requirement for surviving death through the Force.

Again, a strong connection doesn't always equal strong combative power. We know Anakin's connection to the Force is the strongest in the mythos overall(not including the entities), yet he's hardly the most powerful character in terms of combative power. We know Yaddle shares Yoda's affinity/connection to the Force and has achieved complete unity with it, yet canonical sources told us Yoda > her. We know beings like Simus have a connection to the Force and willpower strong enough to survive decapitation, but I doubt he's more powerful than Dooku, or Vader, or even Maul.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My point is what your saying is conjecture, and regardless, its not as if Vader didn't manage to become a Force ghost in the end.

Vader didn't become a Force Ghost, though, Anakin did 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Unrealised potential is certainly a factor but they do directly correlate, because its through your connection to the Force that you are able to draw on power. Yaddle for example while not as powerful as Yoda, could certainly be assumed to be within his league, and Simus' ability to survive being decapitated was a product of his knowledge over the Force, not a connection to the Force that exceeded Dooku's.

It might appear we have a different interpretation to what one's connection to the Force is. To me, it's the innate/raw power of a Force user, which doesn't always translate into realized or combative power.

OK but power is power, and considering Vader's innate potential was stunted post-Mustafar, surely Vader's connection to the Force strengthening wouldn't only be relevant in terms of strength he now has grasp over.