Maul, Ahsoka, Kenobi & Luke vs. Kun, Droma & Nyriss

Started by Beniboybling8 pages

I commend you on your effort Myth, you have fought gallantly, worthy of recognition in the archives of the Jedi Order.

But now, time to an hero it is finished. 🙂

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, really. The entire fight, she was the one in the retreat, never fully stopping his advance.
No friend, you are wrong. ❌

For example here Ahsoka contends with Vader without losing any ground:

And that was when she was fatigued, the first half of the fight happens off panel, a full 50 seconds of it, in which Ahsoka is only driven a short distance from the entrance. Indicating that she was not on the back foot the entire time there either.

And Dooku wasn't consistently being driven back, there were indeed moment when he stood toe-to-toe with Skywalker, the best example being this:

You've already raised this, and I addressed it, so I'll save what I have to say for your response to that point.

Now as for your overall assessment, a very impressive effort; and though I concede that Dooku was disadvantaged in that extract that I raised, the fact remains that fatigued or not, he still required vast amounts of power to parry Anakin's attacks and even more besides to block them. This aspect should remain constant no matter how much Force reserves Dooku possessed. All that would change is the extent to which it exhausted him, which in his present state was very much.

However, while Dooku was already fatigued, we should remember that Ahsoka simply isn't as powerful a Force user as Dooku, and therefore does not possess his reserves. So that mitigates Dooku's disadvantage somewhat. On top of that a) as a Djem So/Ataru duelist, she would have been meeting Vader's attacks largely head on (i.e. blocking them) as opposed to deflecting them in the style of Makashi b) did so against a considerably stronger opponent.

The point being? If we condense all these factors together, and stack them against Dooku being tired, and lacking in "composure", they more than balance one another out, and on that basis I would argue that this extract, and Ahsoka's duel with Vader, are yes, equivalent.

In which case we return to the question of who handle Vader/Anakin's attacks better, and I would again say it was undoubtedly Ahsoka, and by a considerable margin. If each blow she blocked of Vader's was aging her a proverbial decade, she wouldn't have survived the first 30 seconds, let alone almost two minutes, and as Joker rightly pointed out, that last attack should have cleaved her in half, she ****ing blocked it backhanded, then kept fighting.

Now to address these other instances in which Dooku wasn't on the back foot. All I'm seeing is the junior novelisation (besides the blade lock, which I will in a moment revisit) where "Down the long length of the room they fought, neither one able to gain an advantage", but that occurs only after Dooku gimps his powers through Dun Moch, whereas just previously he is described as expressly driving Dooku back.

Originally posted by MythLord
Except, everytime we visibly see Ahsoka's expression while she bladelocks with Vader, she seems to be experiencing some major difficulties:

Meanwhile, I can give you a ton of examples of Dooku bladelocking with Skywalker and actually pushing him back with one hand without any evident issues:

^ Just two off the top of my mind above.

First off, resize your ****ing images. 🙂

Moving on, your first example over a minute into the fight, by which point Ahsoka was suffering major fatigue.

And in the second instance has already been covered, as considering Ahsoka has just come out of a marathon engagement, in which she fell several stories, before throwing herself at Vader in an attack that almost cut off is head, the fact that she is able to block this attack at all, let alone with her back turned, is nothing but impressive.

Now in regards to your examples, the key word is leverage, something Dooku possessed in both instances, in the first because he had the high ground, and in the second because he was playing Anakin and Kenobi rather well. Without those advantages Dooku didn't perform so well, case in point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQATBFIZ13o&t=2m26s

Regardless, this was before Anakin grew vastly in power, and then grew even more as Vader, so using TCW as evidence is only a wasted effort on your part.

Originally posted by MythLord
What Dooku notes is that Makashi simply isn't a good style to generate momentum and meet Anakin's Djem So head on, especially when he has Kenobi for aid. This is true, but it doesn't mean Dooku will automatically be devastated whenever he attempts to bladelock with Anakin, as I've already shown above. In fact, against other extremely strong -- both physically and in the Force -- duelists like Yoda, Dooku did manage to meet their strength head-on with no issue:

So Ahsoka certainly isn't beating the Count by way of strength, and he can contend with Vader, certainly.

That's not the point, quite the opposite. Instead in a blade lock, where momentum is less of a factor, Dooku is able to perform rather well, because he is at liberty to bring all his Force power to bear in strength. However in a more common exchange of blows momentum (which Dooku is ineffective at generating) is a much bigger factor, and he has to balance strength with speed, precision etc., he underperforms, and yes against an individual such as Skywalker, finds himself woefully outmatched, and at no point is he shown to hold his ground (without the use of Dun Moch).

Now as for your point regarding Yoda, while an impressive showing, there is little indication that he met Yoda's strength head on. Instead he's described (and seen) to be "parrying brilliantly", deflecting Yoda's attacks away from himself, something he struggles to do against a Djem So duelist, which Yoda is not.

Now is Yoda strong? Of course, even stronger than Anakin, but undoubtedly in combat he favours speed and agility over strength. Which considering his stature is really not something he can bring to bear in any meaningful way, he's a fraction of Dooku's size, and has absolutely no leverage at all, he literally has to leap just to reach him. So to a Djem So stylist like Anakin or Ahsoka, it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Well yes, Tano did do better, albeit not by an exponentional margin, but it should be noted Dooku had more circumstances against him than Ahsoka did in her duel with Vader.
I disagree, but that's been covered.
So far, Vader's connection to the Dark Side has grown, but it doesn't automatically mean he's more powerful than Skywalker overall. And even if he subscribe to this idea, Vader's strength wouldn't have improved by a considerable margin.

That's about it. Looking forwards to your counter, Beni.

This seems like conjecture. Vader's connection to the dark side strengthening doesn't make him... stronger? I don't think so. And let's not ignore his cybernetic enhancements also, they too notably enhanced his physicals.

And considering only 8 years into his tenure as a Sith Lord, he's already overpowering a Lylek queen, again yes we have every reason to assume he's grown considerably stronger.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
For example here Ahsoka contends with Vader without losing any ground:


What's that? A five second .gif? 😂

Now now dear, don't butt in where you're not wanted. 🙂

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I don't think Beni & I disagree that Dooku is Tano's superior in an overall combative sense, just that her physical advantages could likely be a good contributor in netting her some decent minority victories.
Originally posted by MythLord
Well they'll be factors, I just don't see any massive physical disparity between Tano and Dooku -- both were driven back by insane power duelists and while the one Ahsoka fought was more-than-likely stronger, Dooku had more negative circumstances hindering him during his battle with Skywalker.
I would argue that Ahsoka's strength and subsequent stamina advantage would prove an undeniable advantage against a combatant whose proven himself vulnerable to duelists who abuse said strength, which Ahsoka does do, whereas I find Dooku's saber mastery less of an advantage when Ahsoka is handling Maul's saber talent just dandy.

So yeah, on that basis I'd say she definitely takes some victories, and maybe even a slim majority, depending on how you rate Dooku's skill.

Ahsoka's a really cool gal. 🙂

Ahsoka taking a slim majority against Dooku in lightsabers?

https://youtu.be/4sq9xM_NVWs?t=20

Unlikely, but not impossible.

Taking rounds, possibly. A majority? How? Being on the back foot against Vader doesn't constitute beating someone who held his own against Yoda, was an approximate equal to Mace Windu, held his own against Anakin + Obi-Wan, comfortably (and consistently) defeated Pre-TCW Grievous, comfortably defeated Ventress, defeated Sora Bulq, comfortably defeated Quinlan Vos, and "could outclass nearly anyone in the Order except for Yoda" as a Jedi before going on to improve as a Sith Lord.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Taking rounds, possibly. A majority? How? Being on the back foot against Vader doesn't constitute beating someone who held his own against Yoda, was an approximate equal to Mace Windu, held his own against Anakin + Obi-Wan, comfortably (and consistently) defeated Pre-TCW Grievous, comfortably defeated Ventress, defeated Sora Bulq, comfortably defeated Quinlan Vos, and "could outclass nearly anyone in the Order except for Yoda" as a Jedi before going on to improve as a Sith Lord.

You don't think she could give Dooku a solid fight?

Originally posted by carthage
You don't think she could give Dooku a solid fight?

I said she could take some rounds, which is better than a solid fight tbh

I just said she isn't taking a majority. Sounds a bit too far-fetched to me. Haven't read the whole debate here yet, though.

EDIT: I've read the debate now. Interesting...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Taking rounds, possibly. A majority? How?
I think it's been proved in this thread that Ahsoka has some handy physical advantages over the Count such as stamina and strength, two attributes which are pretty good to have. She's outperformed Dooku against a more skilled, stronger, and vastly more powerful opponent in Vader, and Dooku is also consistently on the back foot against TCW Anakin. It's an easy comparison to make, since they both fought the same people, but the fact is Ahsoka's opponent was much more dangerous. Listing Dooku's other feats seems kind of pointless when we have a direct link to compare him with Ahsoka through Anakin and Vader.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Being on the back foot against Vader doesn't constitute beating someone who held his own against Yoda,
Which is impressive, but it's not like Yoda was going all out with Dooku. Yoda's near equal with the blade is clowning Maul and Opress, the former combatant being very close, if not equal to Dooku.
Originally posted by SunRazer
was an approximate equal to Mace Windu,
If you're referring to Yoda's Y: DR quote -- that takes place before Windu's experience on Haruun Kal: "There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared." -Revenge of the Sith ----- I think that would pretty obviously make Windu much more effective in Vaapad, so Yoda's statements don't take into account Mace's very likely increase in ability.
Originally posted by SunRazer
held his own against Anakin + Obi-Wan,
Even Ventress can do that in TCW, and by RotS, Dooku is hanging on by a thread and is described as desperate, IIRC. And plus, usually Anakin performs much better alone against Dooku without the shitty teamwork of him and Kenobi getting in the way (as of TCW).
Originally posted by SunRazer
comfortably (and consistently) defeated Pre-TCW Grievous,
LoE claims Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel Grievous, so Dooku hardly is comfortably above him, and we've seen Dooku use the Force in his sparring sessions with Grievous, so there's no surprise he'd consistently defeat him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
comfortably defeated Ventress,
In particular, with his large Force advantage. And Ahsoka at 14 is holding off Ventress, add 20 years and she should be well ahead of Ventress, especially considering her noted high Force potential and advanced abilities for her age -- and honestly, her feats in Rebels suggest that's the case. I mean, Ahsoka's fighting evenly with peak!Maul, so I don't really see why the majority, if not all of these feats can't be accomplished by Ahsoka, seeing as how SoD Maul is quite close to Dooku as a duelist, and a good amount of the victories you listed were accomplished when Dooku used the Force against his opponents. We're discussing sabers only.
Originally posted by SunRazer
defeated Sora Bulq,
With Force lightning, and why do you feel the need to mention this as if Ahsoka couldn't also defeat Bulq?
Originally posted by SunRazer
comfortably defeated Quinlan Vos,
Originally posted by SunRazer
and "could outclass nearly anyone in the Order except for Yoda" as a Jedi before going on to improve as a Sith Lord.
Pretty sure Ahsoka also outclasses everyone bar Yoda and Windu as of TPM, too, and Dooku's feats as a Sith Lord have been addressed.

I'll respond soon, Beni boi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What's that? A five second .gif? 😂

> no she wasn't retreating for the whole fight
> you can't use a bit of the fight as evidence, she's holding her ground for most of it
> look let me prove it with this 4 second gif

kek

For the record, I'm using composite versions.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I think it's been proved in this thread that Ahsoka has some handy physical advantages over the Count such as stamina and strength, two attributes which are pretty good to have.

So did Grievous, and in greater proportions, but Dooku defeats him regularly, and often comfortably.

Ahsoka isn't Anakin - she lacks his Force reserves, his physical strength, and doesn't use a strength-oriented form. Ahsoka was forced to call upon her strength since Vader uses a fairly strength-based fighting style, but outside of that, ie. when she fought the Inquisitors, Maul etc. she didn't appear to make strength a priority, so in that case, it's really not worth mentioning.

Stamina - technically, though the junior novel has a different take on Dooku's stamina compared to the main novel, where Anakin's instead musing that the dark side keeps Dooku going indefinitely and that he can't tire Dooku out. I don't believe other renditions of RotS offer an opinion on this.

She's outperformed Dooku against a more skilled, stronger, and vastly more powerful opponent in Vader

Vader's more skilled than Dooku? Based on what?

Vastly more powerful? Vader's also vastly more powerful than Ahsoka, and Dooku's also more powerful (not sure if I'd say vastly, though) than Ahsoka.

and Dooku is also consistently on the back foot against TCW Anakin.

Who boasts stronger advantages than Ahsoka does, by the way. Besides, Dooku's also put Anakin on the back foot. The main "back foot" incident was on Naboo, where Dooku was retreating to his ship anyway, and Anakin was getting visibly enraged. That aside, Dooku performs demonstrably better against Anakin than Ahsoka does against Vader.

It's an easy comparison to make, since they both fought the same people, but the fact is Ahsoka's opponent was much more dangerous.

And without a form advantage.

Listing Dooku's other feats seems kind of pointless when we have a direct link to compare him with Ahsoka through Anakin and Vader.

Because it's not as simple as Vader > Anakin, especially if we're factoring in composite versions.

Which is impressive, but it's not like Yoda was going all out with Dooku. Yoda's near equal with the blade is clowning Maul and Opress, the former combatant being very close, if not equal to Dooku.

Actually, newer quotes suggest that Sidious is more skilled than any of the Jedi, which would include Yoda. Sidious' clowning is in large part due to his vastly greater power and physicals, by the way.

For that matter, greater power and physicals comprised the vast majority of Yoda's advantage against the Count. In some sources, the Count isn't really outskilled by Yoda, and supplementary sources confirm that Dooku actually held his own against Yoda - with regards to their lightsaber skill, which is what we're discussing here. And if you really want to push it, Fact File #68 and the AotC Expanded Visual Dictionary claim that the fight was a stalemate. Thame Cerulian also once claimed that Dooku was more skilled than even Yoda. Not that I'm saying these are true, but it's pretty handy hype.

If you're referring to Yoda's Y: DR quote -- that takes place before Windu's experience on Haruun Kal: think that would pretty obviously make Windu much more effective in Vaapad, so Yoda's statements don't take into account Mace's very likely increase in ability.

Shatterpoint takes place in 22BBY, not long after AotC. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place in 19BBY, shortly before RotS. So it takes place well after Mace's Haruun Kal experience. What's better is that Mace is only possibly his equal as per Yoda, so there's clearly a chance in Yoda's opinion that Dooku is his better.

Even Ventress can do that in TCW

The first instance was her running away after a few saber exchanges, turning around, clashing once or twice, and running away again.

The second instance with her being injured? Flat out PIS. And Dooku has beaten Ventress on several occasions.

and by RotS, Dooku is hanging on by a thread and is described as desperate, IIRC.

By RotS, Anakin might be even better than Vader as a swordsman, depending on whether or not Canon Vader had difficulty adjusting (I haven't read LotS in a while, I can't remember, but certainly the case for Legends), certainly a faster one and with a purer usage of Djem So. Then there's Obi-Wan, who's not only a comparable swordsman but the duo have the best teamwork in the galaxy. It's implied that they're better than even Yoda. Who wouldn't be desperate?

And plus, usually Anakin performs much better alone against Dooku without the shitty teamwork of him and Kenobi getting in the way (as of TCW).

Fair enough, but only because TCW's chock-full of WIS.

LoE claims Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel Grievous, so Dooku hardly is comfortably above him

No, the quote specifically mentions that there were "even times", ie. not a majority of them, when Dooku was hard-pressed. In other words, in most of their fights, Dooku beats him comfortably. Also, the ones where Tyranus is hard-pressed were the extensive combat sessions, in which case it might be "stamina" as you call it more than skill that causes Grievous to press the Count.

and we've seen Dooku use the Force in his sparring sessions with Grievous, so there's no surprise he'd consistently defeat him.

When? In OCW? He throws Grievous against a barrel, literally waits for Grievous to get back up and come at him again, and the fight resumes as normal. There was no meaningful impact on the outcome of the fight. If anything, it served to goad Grievous into greater aggression, that's all.

Dooku's trying to teach Grievous the saber arts and how to counter technical forms, so making liberal use of the Force to get an advantage wouldn't make sense, and OCW backs that up.

In particular, with his large Force advantage.

I'm talking about physical dueling only. For that matter, prior to TCW's stupid retcon, Ventress stayed as Dooku's acolyte until 19BBY, during which Dooku regarded Grievous as the more formidable warrior, and we know that Tyranus defeats Grievous comfortably most of the time.

Dooku also held his own quite well against Ventress and two of the most skilled Nightsisters simultaneously whilst drugged and with them being invisible.

And Ahsoka at 14 is holding off Ventress

Weaker versions of Ventress, yeah.

add 20 years and she should be well ahead of Ventress

15 years, not 20. There's only 14 years between RotS and Rebels.

especially considering her noted high Force potential and advanced abilities for her age -- and honestly, her feats in Rebels suggest that's the case. I mean, Ahsoka's fighting evenly with peak!Maul, so I don't really see why the majority, if not all of these feats can't be accomplished by Ahsoka, seeing as how SoD Maul is quite close to Dooku as a duelist, and a good amount of the victories you listed were accomplished when Dooku used the Force against his opponents. We're discussing sabers only.

Who said Old Maul improved as a swordsman since SoD? Growing in power is a nice indicator but hardly a certain one. In Legends, Vader grew in power following RotS, but became a worse duelist because of the restrictions of his suit. Likewise, Ben Kenobi also grew in power, but became a worse swordsman due to lack of practice. Unless Maul regularly dueled in exile, he probably deteriorated more than anything. I'm willing to say he's equal to SoD Maul, though.

So if Ahsoka's about equal with Maul, she'd be a bit below Dooku as a swordsman, and she doesn't use a whole lot of strength or ferocity in her form to take advantage of Makashi's weaknesses. Dooku's also more powerful than her. I'm not seeing where a majority comes into play.

With Force lightning, and why do you feel the need to mention this as if Ahsoka couldn't also defeat Bulq?

Force Lightning after disarming Bulq of one of his blades whilst in combat with Tholme. Also, Bulq's one of the most skilled Jedi ever and challenged Mace. He's not going down to Ahsoka without giving her a great fight - harder than the one he gave Dooku, IMO. And I'm just listing the Count's showings.

Regarding Vos, I'm referring to Legends, not Canon, of course.

Pretty sure Ahsoka also outclasses everyone bar Yoda and Windu as of TPM, too, and Dooku's feats as a Sith Lord have been addressed.

There's the likes of Tiin, Kolar and Kit, but yeah.

Why did you have to respond when I was about to go to sleep, Nova? Why? 🙁

That is the way of the Sith 🙂

@Nova, Ahsoka is a Djem So/Ataru stylist, so fierce and strength orientated attacks are her standard.

And evidently against the Seventh Sister, she uses Djem So to batter her into submission:

I assume she'd be intelligent enough to apply a similar strategy against Dooku.

I would also disagree that combatively Grievous has a strength advantage over Ahsoka. Ventress was capable of matching his strength blow for blow on Dathomir and Ahsoka manages to temporarily overpower him as a Padawan on Florrum:

This being the same Grievous who is effortlessly crushing Mandalorian iron and launching Darth Maul, so he's no slouch.

Originally posted by Selenial
> no she wasn't retreating for the whole fight
> you can't use a bit of the fight as evidence, she's holding her ground for most of it
> look let me prove it with this 4 second gif

kek

Honey, if we wish to nitpick the example I gave was a 7 second portion of a 25 second part of the fight we see, in math speak that's 30%.

Furthermore it was an example, Ahsoka actually holds her ground for the most of that portion, and also at points during the first half as well. And of course, we have the 50 second portion of the fight we do not see.

Finally I never recall actually claiming that she wasn't being driven back for the majority of the fight, only not constantly. Nice try tho. 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Nova, Ahsoka is a Djem So/Ataru stylist, so fierce and strength orientated attacks are her standard.

And evidently against the Seventh Sister, she uses Djem So to batter her into submission:

Your penchant for selecting a few seconds of a fight makes me unclear if I can trust you. I'll watch the full fight later.

Besides, what states that she uses Djem So? I thought she used Shien/Ataru.

I assume she'd be intelligent enough to apply a similar strategy against Dooku.

I'd assume Grievous would be too, since he's actually trained in Makashi. Except he never managed to hammer down the Count - Pre-TCW incarnation as well. Also, the Count easily slaps aside a pre-training Savage's strikes, which were all brute force. Even before Talzin worked her magic, Savage was punching holes in stone. This was the same Savage that sent Halsey and Knox flying with sheer strength, IIRC.

Ventress was capable of matching his strength blow for blow on Dathomir and Ahsoka manages to temporarily overpower him as a Padawan on Florrum:

This being the same Grievous who is effortlessly crushing Mandalorian iron, so he's no slouch.

It's freaking TCW Grievous, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Your penchant for selecting a few seconds of a fight makes me unclear if I can trust you. I'll watch the full fight later.
Besides, what states that she uses Djem So? I thought she used Shien/Ataru.
Filoni said as much in a TCW preview, he explains that Anakin was essentially training Ahsoka to fight more like him.
I'd assume Grievous would be too, since he's actually trained in Makashi. Except he never managed to hammer down the Count - Pre-TCW incarnation as well.
Grievous developed his own unorthodox form of fighting, which never seems to resemble Djem So, and which Dooku was nonetheless expert in.

Regardless the Count was hard pressed to defeat him at certain times, was he not?

Also, the Count easily slaps aside a pre-training Savage's strikes, which were all brute force. Even before Talzin worked her magic, Savage was punching holes in stone. This was the same Savage that sent Halsey and Knox flying with sheer strength, IIRC.
When he had zero training in lightsaber combat, is that an example really worthy mentioning? Not when after being properly trained, he knocked Dooku on his ass...
It's freaking TCW Grievous, lol.
You mean Canon Grievous, who crushed Mandalorian iron...

Ventress also overpowers him in an OCW comic as I recall. mmm

Anakin training Ahsoka in Djem So may also be in TCW novels by Karen Traviss / Karen Miller, too, but I'm not sure. I may check later.

I'll respond to you later Nova after I get some sleep lol