Originally posted by MythLordOK, she's pushed back a few inches, I'd still argue that is holding one's ground. And as I explained to Sel, if you look at the fight you'll find she largely holds her position around the corner of the Temple for the portion of that fight, just with greater difficulty.
Um, even then, we can visibly see she's going backwards. And this was, what, five seconds? Dooku fending off both Anakin and Obi-Wan while fatigued, out-of-composure and taken a back by their skill after fooled into a false sense of security, is better, tbh.[...]
It seems more than a short distance to me, and given the speed with which they were fighting, 50 seconds of being driven back would be accurate. And Dooku while fatigued also deflected Anakin's attacks, again with the circumstances I listed above, and his overhand chop was described as "slidding across Dooku's defense".
As for the omitted part, I'd rather not get into eyeballing the distance so I'll say this much; considering that Ahsoka was fatigued towards the latter end of the fight, and considering at the beginning she actually gains an advantage over Vader, it can be argued that if she were so inclined, she could have held her ground even better than she did so here. Which is pretty impressive.
----------------------
Now concerning Dooku fending off Obi-Wan and Anakin; as far as contending with the strength of the latter is concerned, no, Dooku remains miles away from Ahsoka's performance, doing even worse than he did after dispatching Kenobi:
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.So after three strikes Dooku almost gets sliced up, let's just compare that to the gif I posted:Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength - not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing - And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.
I count more than twice as many strikes from Vader, and zero injuries from Ahsoka who loses inches in ground, after which she loses no more than a meter or so, compared to Dooku back-pedalling "as fast as he dared."
The colossal difference in performance alone makes up for Dooku's fatigue and lack of composure. The fact that Ahsoka is again, also fatigued (arguably at this point even more), fighting against a stronger Vader, and meeting his strikes largely head on, makes her performance the decisively better one imo.
Well, if Dooku was facing Anakin alone without those disadvantages, he'd have more reserves to draw from, thus being able to put in more strength in his parries and have an easier time deflecting the assault. Much like that, he'd also be able to find a way to dispatch Anakin -- via martial ability, lightning, or any other way, which the novel clearly shows he can do -- and recompose/refill his reserves. So he wouldn't have been driven back as conclusively, and would've been able to land in more hits of his own. Perhaps take advantage of a defensive lapse and land a killing blow. 🙂Well that's essentially what I said, that with more reserves to draw on he'd find Anakin's assault less taxing. But the mimimum power required for Dooku to block Anakin's attacks would remain the same, he's not getting any weaker. And if Ahsoka needed to use up that much energy to block Vader's attacks (or rather more as he's stronger) she would have been exhausted very very quickly, but she wasn't, therefore she didn't.
As for your scenario, well that's conjecture I'm afraid, and when Dooku did restore his reserves and regain his compsure, he was still being decisively driven back.
Indeed, Tano is less powerful/masterful in the Force than the Count is. But, much like that, Dooku had to face two enemies of considerable skill that are, certainly, superior to Vader collectively. And he managed to land hits on them, as oppose to Ahsoka only ever landing a hit via cheapshot on Vader, or a inconsequential Force Push.Well his ability to land "hits" on them is a matter more of speed (and skill) than strength. Though if you which to discuss that I would point out that at the beginning of the fight Ahsoka was all over Vader who was struggling to keep up:
Where she lands two hits on him, in fact. So she's no slouch in that department.
A) Dooku was also at times meeting Anakin's attacks head-on, although less frequently than Ahsoka. But it's also worth noting that Tano, as a Djem So master, had a perfect form to exercise her own strength. Dooku, however, didn't. We know that the Count is insanely strong -- he dominates Vos, Asajj and Kenobi and dispatches Anakin with celerity. But his form isn't suited for abusing such strength in combat, and when he does, it's usually with a one-handed grip that even further lessens the amount of strength he can abuse.But always with great difficulty, and twice over expresses meeting Skywalker head on is simply not viable:
He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strengthAnd the way he says this in broad terms suggests its more to do with just fatigue.[...]
Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. [u]His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.
B) But with less negative circumstances on her part, and positive circumstances on Vader's.By which you mean?
Then you agree Dooku's and Tano's showings are equivalent? I'd personally put Dooku's ahead since I consider Obi/Annie duo > Vader.I believe that they possessed equally mitigating circumstances, making them directly comparable.
Right, Tano does seem to handle it better, but given the negative circumstances of Dooku's own performance, and his form being less suited for such engagements than Ahsoka, it's no doubt Ahsoka would perform better. But in the context of who'd win in a fight between her and Dooku: she doesn't have the strength nor the stamina to exploit Dooku's weaknesses. I would say only Anakin/Vader+ level beings can do that.Well that's largely the point, Dooku's form is a significant factor in his inability to compete in the strength department. Does she possess enough of an edge to exploit Dooku's weakness? Yes I believe so. And I'll take this opportunity to reiterate Dooku's duel with TCW Anakin on Naboo and address your points in that regard:
Next up is your example; despite Anakin clearly becoming enraged, and Dooku just wanting to get back his ship, Dooku didn't have trouble with Skywalker's strength or skill. Quite the contrary, there were moments where he bladelocked with Anakin without a problem before pushing him backwards.Simply put I find your assessment off, no Dooku was not on the offensive, but that shouldn't have hampered his defense. Furthermore Dooku proclaims at the beginning of the fight that "defeating you alone will be an easy task", yet ends up falling into a full retreat. We don't see what occurs between the gap in the duel, but we can assume Anakin succeeds in driving Dooku out of the dining room.What Anakin did was gain leverage over Dooku by kicking him then standing atop him. At this point, the Count was on the floor, being choked and still managed to contend with Anakin pretty well in the bladelock to the point where he then pushed him back before frying him with lightning and then TKing. This is easily comparable to what Ahsoka did to Vader near the end of their fight.
And while yes initially Dooku appears successful in blocking and deflecting the Count's attacks, in the latter half of the fight I referenced he shows clear signs of difficulty, and his stamina begins to seriously flag. His face is contorted with strain, he's grunting with exertion, his attacks become sloppy, and the only reason Anakin kicks him to the stairs is because he reveals a lapse in his defense, which we can assume is the result of fatigue. The fact that Dooku is then able to throw him off with his Force powers, doesn't change the fact he was undoubtedly on the losing end of that engagement, and Palpatine's grin tells it all. It's foreshadowing his ultimate defeat in RotS.
The point I'm making here is that you don't need to be RotS Anakin or Vader level to exploit this weakness. Anakin before growing "vastly" in power was able to do so decisively here, and frankly Ahsoka's ability to contend with Vader and Maul suggests she's not be far off that level at all.
----------------------
To reinforce this point as of her prime in Dark Disciple, Ventress was also strong enough to drive Dooku back, if only temporarily:
Snarling, Ventress charged at Dooku, reveling in the strength of her muscles as she dealt strike after strike. Her old master parried expertly, but she forced him back.Ahsoka should again, be quite a bit stronger than Ventress, and on top of that wields Djem So, so should be able to press him even harder. Altogether I think the bar is quite a bit lower than you believe.
Actually, prior to that Dun Moch attempt in the RotS junior novelisation, it's described as Dooku being calm and at ease and expertly parrying Kenobi's and Anakin's blows and that only collectively did they drive him back.Sure but that's not supported by other sources, even the script says Dooku was tired.
When she has the Force to protect her, I doubt falling that height would've badly damaged her, and it doesn't seem that way, tbh. Dooku has fallen from greater heights and was unharmed:That's not a very good example though, considering Dooku hadn't just fought a marathon engagement, then been blown away by a Force user who can explode Lyleks.And she also had more than enough time to refill her Force reserves before bullrushing Vader, and landing a cheapshot shouldn't have exhausted her. Honestly, the only thing making this feat of her impressive is inferior leverage in comparison to Vader.
Here's a better one:
"Now, as for Skywalker-Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.
The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.
He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet."
So arguably even Dooku would have been hard pressed to recover from that fall, nor does she land neatly on her feet. Instead when it cuts back 30 seconds later she's sprawled on the floor and appears to be recovering from unconciousness:
A disabling impact indeed, I would think. 👆
Regardless, its pretty obvious she was exhausted considering after throwing herself at Vader she collapses the floor, and struggles just to get to her feet:
So yeah, it's impressive, and under similar circumstances Dooku would not have escaped without injury. 🙂
I knew you were going to use that, and I came prepared. But first, let's get this out of the way: leverage. While he indeed did have leverage against Anakin in my first example, my second example shows him without such benefit. In fact, he would've needed to act quick in order to stop Kenobi's attack, and he didn't really play with Kenobi to make him interfere with Skywalker's attacks, he pushed back one, then the other.Nah, as you yourself said, Dooku doesn't need the high ground to generate leverage. He does this through positioning, pay attention to his footwork, he uses his stance to act like a spring and throw off Anakin's attacks. You'll also notice that Dooku never allows Anakin to properly bring his strength to bear, his attacks are almost entirely focused on off-balancing his opponents and he evades as many of Anakin's strikes as he parries.Here, if anything, he's at a disadvantage since he needs to multitask and quickly drive off one of the assailants to he can fight the other. And also, why does it matter if Dooku has leverage? Dooku is a master of finding and exploiting superior positioning juxtaposed to his opponents and then defeating them with alacrity. In fact, to him position and leverage were as natural as breathing:
So if he can exploit leverage against Anakin, why not against someone less skilled like Ahsoka?
Anakin never really gets an oppurtunity to focus down Dooku with his strength, and that plays to the Count's advantage, as he's able to keep his stamina up. In a 1 v 1 engagement however, and this applies to Ahsoka as well, though he's capable of applying all these tactics, in order to win he'd need to do more than just off-balance and evade, he'd have to press his advantage with a counter-attack, and therefore be more direct with his opponent and their strength. In which case his stamina would flag and his parries would become less effective.
And indeed, when facing Anakin alone, he didn't do as well, as I've already covered.
Well, actually, Anakin grew vastly since Ahsoka left the Order, that is what the quote entails. And the two occasions that Anakin fought Dooku during this power growth -- one closer to Ahsoka leaving, the other closer to RotS -- Anakin was either on the losing side(Kenobi and he kept being outwitted and pushed back by Dooku) or the advantage was constantly shifting. So, while Anakin did surpass Dooku by RotS, it's not by any substantial margin IMO.He was winning the first time, and the second fight was a stalemate. I say that because although Kenobi and Anakin were falling over one another, Dooku was doing nothing to press his offence. So it was an impasse.
Regardless my point is that none of these fights represent peak-Anakin, so they don't discount Dooku's performance in RotS.
Indeed, I agree that Dooku isn't one built for a rapid exchange of blows. But, he's more than compensated for this. He has multiple tools at his disposal that allowed him to gain leverage and, indeed an advantage over Skywalker many times in the past and at least once during their duel in RotS that was filled with circumstances against Tyranus. If he can do so against a more skilled, and stronger Anakin, then I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do this against Tano.Yet never managed to win in this way, merely delay his defeat. Regardless I don't deny that Dooku's skill gives him an edge over Ahsoka, and will net him a number of wins, but I'd still argue that 5-6 times out of 10, his stamina would luck out.Especially when Ahsoka is less skilled and less powerful juxtaposed to Dooku, and certainly weaker than Anakin, Mace, Grievous, etc.
But nah, she's combatively stronger than Grievous, and close to TCW Anakin. 🙂 👆
The quote regarding parrying Yoda's strikes specifically kept mentioning Dooku's strength and how his strikes were backed by the power of the Force. It seems to be imply he could at least hold off Yoda somewhat in a bladelock. And Yoda's inferior leverage was never a problem when he needed to use strength, otherwise he wouldn't have been overpowering Darth Sidious(someone who physically outmatches Savage and Maul) during some sections of their duel. I don't see how, if this wasn't a problem against Sidious, it would be a problem against Dooku.Bladelocks are different, as I've already covered, as they are less reliant on momentum and therefore the force of gravity literally pulling Yoda back to earth. And against Sidious he was standing atop the podium regardless.
But fair enough on the comparison between Yoda and Djem So stylists. But that's hardly the only comparison I have. Another great example is Dooku being unmoved and casually blocking Mace Windu's bullrush(which is strong enough to create shockwaves that knock back MagnaGuards):Yeah don't know about that, its pretty unprecedented for saber attacks to create kinetic repulses of any kind, so its more likely he simultaneously struck out at them with the Force, to stop them intervening. Which is an impressive feat for Windu, but has no bearing on Dooku's ability to handle his strength.In fact, not only does Dooku simply block this assault with no issue, he proceeds to, after a few exchanges with Mace, put Windu on the defensive -- a stark contrast to what happened in the first panel of the fight where Mace was the aggressor:
This clearly demonstrates great strength and suggests that Ahsoka isn't winning by way of her physical superiority, which I'm sorta questioning, tbh.
But sure, it's no suprise that Dooku can block an attack from Windu, Ahsoka does plenty of that (without being staggered) in her fight against Vader, and Dooku swinging at him in turn doesn't mean Windu had been pushed on the defensive lol, they are just exchanging blows.
That's great. But Kenobi was holding back the full strength of a Sarlaac trying to eat him and bent Grievous' arm like a cheap spoon(Grievous having some insane strength feats like casually tearing through durasteel, killing Jedi and Clones by simply kicking them), yet got dominated by a hindered Anakin and incapacitated by Dooku strength-wise. I'd say that rivals Vader's Lylek Queen feat, tbh.Did he now? Could you quote the feat sounds interesting. But fair enough, this is several years before Vader's prime however.
Part 1 of 3:
Originally posted by SunRazerIt's been shown that Dooku also uses the Force in his spars with Grievous, which may or may not have been contributors in the regularity of Grievous's defeats. Ahsoka at 16 y/o was performing admirably against Grievous's strength, and even at one point pushed Grievous back in a blade-lock in order to escape. Add 17 years of power growth, her Force augmentative powers should be vastly greater, adding to the amount of strength she can bring to the table. Dooku can't ragdoll Ahsoka like he can Grievous, and Ahsoka is more skilled than Grievous (Kenobi in RotS seemed only to be having difficulties with his speed, not necessarily skill, and Ahsoka is fighting evenly with Kenobi's peer in skill, Maul, and holding out against Vader), which is extremely important in an effective application of strength, especially against a Makashi user.
So did Grievous, and in greater proportions, but Dooku defeats him regularly, and often comfortably.
Originally posted by SunRazerShe doesn't have to be Anakin. But regardless, her physical strength is quite insane:
Ahsoka isn't Anakin - she lacks his Force reserves, his physical strength, and doesn't use a strength-oriented form.
^ An absolutely atrocious position for leverage, and she's blocking an overhead chop from Darth mother****ing Vader, and still manages to throw him off, recover, and resume dueling. That's a feat of strength I can't see Dooku coming even close to accomplishing, especially when Dooku was barely capable of defending against Anakin's strikes in RotS as per the novelization. Vader has cybernetic enhancements and has grown more powerful per LotS, so again, Ahsoka deals with Vader's strength far greater than Dooku does with Anakin's, so there's a distinct and easily noticeable strength advantage for Ahsoka. And even if she isn't as strong as RotS Anakin, she can still press her advantage, which is the point.
And, actually, Anakin trained Ahsoka in Djem So. Yes, it isn't her primary form she uses, but when fighting a fencer like Dooku who's noticeably inferior to her in strength, she has reason to fall back on it and try a strength-based approach.
Originally posted by SunRazerUsing a strength-based approach to defeat Maul wouldn't really make sense. As for the Inquisitors, she quite clearly retools her fighting style against the Seventh Sister and overwhelms her with her strength:
Ahsoka was forced to call upon her strength since Vader uses a fairly strength-based fighting style, but outside of that, ie. when she fought the Inquisitors, Maul etc. she didn't appear to make strength a priority, so in that case, it's really not worth mentioning.
When dealing with an extremely skilled fencer such as Dooku, and the fact Ahsoka will likely realize early on she's quite a bit stronger than Dooku, I don't think she will stick to the Ataru-blitz method.
Originally posted by SunRazerAnakin and Kenobi ****ing around with Dooku was tiring him out, as he himself notes. Ahsoka has a strength advantage and stamina advantage, comparable, though admittedly slightly inferior skill. If Ahsoka can maintain an assault, Dooku will eventually begin to tire and the overall advantage falls to Ahsoka.
Stamina - technically, though the junior novel has a different take on Dooku's stamina compared to the main novel, where Anakin's instead musing that the dark side keeps Dooku going indefinitely and that he can't tire Dooku out. I don't believe other renditions of RotS offer an opinion on this.
Originally posted by SunRazerNo, I meant more skilled than TCW Anakin. Do I have to put in the effort to substantiate that or can we both accept it to be the case?
Vader's more skilled than Dooku? Based on what?
Originally posted by SunRazerVader isn't "vastly" more powerful than Ahsoka, lol. If there was a massive Force deficit she wouldn't be giving Vader the fight she did, and she wouldn't be stated to "stand with the best" when it comes to the Force (Rebels Recon).
Vastly more powerful? Vader's also vastly more powerful than Ahsoka, and Dooku's also more powerful (not sure if I'd say vastly, though) than Ahsoka.
Originally posted by SunRazerRotS Anakin? Obviously. But when RotS Anakin is near buckling Dooku's wrists and making Dooku shit himself each time he blocks, I'd say you don't necessarily need to be at that level in strength to press a large advantage against him.
Who boasts stronger advantages than Ahsoka does, by the way. Besides, Dooku's also put Anakin on the back foot. The main "back foot" incident was on Naboo, where Dooku was retreating to his ship anyway, and Anakin was getting visibly enraged. That aside, Dooku performs demonstrably better against Anakin than Ahsoka does against Vader.
Originally posted by SunRazerYes, because Jar'Kai is phenomenal defending against dedicated strength duelists.
And without a form advantage.
Originally posted by SunRazerIt gives us a means of direct comparison, especially when it comes to physicals such as strength and stamina. You can attempt to prove Dooku has more skill with his other feats, but Ahsoka's duel with Vader is sufficient proof she is nearing Dooku in skill and completely outstripping him in physical ability.
Because it's not as simple as Vader > Anakin, especially if we're factoring in composite versions.
Originally posted by SunRazerWhat quotes, and wouldn't that conflict with the fact Yoda disarmed Sidious with the blade?
Actually, newer quotes suggest that Sidious is more skilled than any of the Jedi, which would include Yoda.
Originally posted by SunRazerTwo attributes Yoda has on Maul and Savage in mass as well, and also the two attributes that had Yoda contending with Sidious, so Yoda should still be more than capable of annihilating Maul and Opress similar to how Sidious was.
Sidious' clowning is in large part due to his vastly greater power and physicals, by the way.
Originally posted by SunRazerJust for the record, I'm not claiming Ahsoka is more skilled than Dooku, rather she's close enough and her greater physicals can push her towards a majority. Yoda's power and physicals were indeed a large contributing factor and it made Dooku completely exhausted in a very short period of time. The AotC script however notes how ridiculous Yoda's skill is, so I feel like it's implying it outstrips the Count's own skill: COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.
For that matter, greater power and physicals comprised the vast majority of Yoda's advantage against the Count. In some sources, the Count isn't really outskilled by Yoda, and supplementary sources confirm that Dooku actually held his own against Yoda - with regards to their lightsaber skill, which is what we're discussing here. And if you really want to push it, Fact File #68 and the AotC Expanded Visual Dictionary claim that the fight was a stalemate. Thame Cerulian also once claimed that Dooku was more skilled than even Yoda. Not that I'm saying these are true, but it's pretty handy hype.
YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light.
Count Dooku's lightsaber is sent cartwheeling from his hand. He staggers back, gasping and spent, against the control panel. YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.
In the AotC Junior novelization Yoda was effortlessly parrying Dooku and stonewalling him completely, evidently not really trying: Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.
The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.
The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable.
Part 2 of 3:
So, again, Dooku gets completely shatted on. Even in the AotC novelization, Yoda seems to hold a sizable skill advantage: Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.
It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Not fast enough.
[...]
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
[...]
A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.
The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.
The sources I posted seem to imply or outright show Yoda's superior skill. I would like the sources saying Dooku held his own against Yoda when it came to lightsaber skill, though. As for the other sources claiming the fight was a stalemate; I'm not even going to entertain that because it clearly is far from the case. And not a **** is given about Thame's opinion. Hype is well and all, but when we see the hype put to the test and Dooku is demonstrably quite inferior, I don't care much for it. Anoon Bondara's skills are supposedly "second to none", yet we see that he's obviously far below his actual hype.
Originally posted by SunRazerMmm, interesting, but wouldn't Dark Rendezvous's timeline be pushed back, seeing as how in TCW Ventress stayed under Dooku's tutelage much shorter? Either way, has Yoda actually seen Mace fight to his full extent between Haruun Kal and Dark Rendezvous?
Shatterpoint takes place in 22BBY, not long after AotC. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place in 19BBY, shortly before RotS. So it takes place well after Mace's Haruun Kal experience. What's better is that Mace is only possibly his equal as per Yoda, so there's clearly a chance in Yoda's opinion that Dooku is his better.
Originally posted by SunRazerUh, no, she held them off for over two minutes -- I timed it.
The first instance was her running away after a few saber exchanges, turning around, clashing once or twice, and running away again.
Originally posted by SunRazerTo be fair, she was also pissed as hell, but even then, she's showed the ability to contend with the duo before, so I wouldn't dismiss it as PIS. And yes, that's the point, people who are vastly inferior to the Count can hold off Kenobi and Skywalker in TCW.
The second instance with her being injured? Flat out PIS. And Dooku has beaten Ventress on several occasions.
Originally posted by SunRazerCanon seems to have a vastly different take on Vader than Legends, wouldn't you agree? And if what you mean by adjusting is what I think you mean, then: "Darth Vader has developed his own style of lightsaber fighting, designed to overcome the restrictions of his life-supported armor." -- Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know
By RotS, Anakin might be even better than Vader as a swordsman, depending on whether or not Canon Vader had difficulty adjusting (I haven't read LotS in a while, I can't remember, but certainly the case for Legends),
Originally posted by SunRazerI don't know why Anakin having a purer use of Djem So matters. Vader's style is more versatile and covers his bases more, and he still posses the same mastery of Djem So regardless, but with more experience and more general intelligence to make himself a better fighter in general. Speaking of Djem So -- Ahsoka has the advantage of that form over the Count, but she doesn't have the disadvantage of lacking mobility because of it, so Dooku can't exploit that like he did with Anakin. And yeah, obviously anyone would be desperate, but I was simply responding to you claiming he "held his own" when he was really getting trashed.
certainly a faster one and with a purer usage of Djem So. Then there's Obi-Wan, who's not only a comparable swordsman but the duo have the best teamwork in the galaxy. It's implied that they're better than even Yoda. Who wouldn't be desperate?
Originally posted by SunRazerOkay, fair enough.
No, the quote specifically mentions that there were [b]"even times", ie. not a majority of them, when Dooku was hard-pressed. In other words, in most of their fights, Dooku beats him comfortably. [/B]
Originally posted by SunRazerInteresting -- so when Dooku's stamina wanes, an opponent who he's usually comfortably ahead can make him hard-pressed to outduel. Ahsoka holds out against Vader for nearly two minutes, and Dooku by contrast stamina starts to wane when dealing with Kenobi and Skywalker when they were completely ****ing with him (and he was ****ing with them too). Then when he's dealing with Skywalker solo:
Also, the ones where Tyranus is hard-pressed were the extensive combat sessions, in which case it might be "stamina" as you call it more than skill that causes Grievous to press the Count.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-
In red, is everything Vader and Skywalker hold in common. Vader possess greater strength than Skywalker and is also relentless, as seen in his fight with Ahsoka. In purple is how Dooku reacts to it. Compare that to how Ahsoka deals with Vader, and it's clear she handles Vader's strength far better (which obviously indicates she's much stronger than Dooku) and her stamina doesn't deplete nearly as quickly. Holding off a similarly dominating fighter in Vader for two minutes >>> Dooku's performance against Skywalker, at least as it relates to stamina and strength.
Originally posted by SunRazerIt could serve as a reprieve for Grievous's assault, but yeah, fair enough.
When? In OCW? He throws Grievous against a barrel, literally waits for Grievous to get back up and come at him again, and the fight resumes as normal. There was no meaningful impact on the outcome of the fight. If anything, it served to goad Grievous into greater aggression, that's all.Dooku's trying to teach Grievous the saber arts and how to counter technical forms, so making liberal use of the Force to get an advantage wouldn't make sense, and OCW backs that up.
Originally posted by SunRazerEven still, we see in Dooku's fights with Ventress he abuses his Force advantage. Ahsoka has also proved she's nearing Dooku in skill through her fights with Maul and Vader and has better physical abilities than Ventress by far so I think Ahsoka would also defeat Ventress with similar ease.
I'm talking about physical dueling only. For that matter, prior to TCW's stupid retcon, Ventress stayed as Dooku's acolyte until 19BBY, during which Dooku regarded Grievous as the more formidable warrior, and we know that Tyranus defeats Grievous comfortably most of the time.
Originally posted by SunRazerWhich is very impressive, but do Nightsisters even have lightsaber training? I think any of them would be outclassed by a high-tier duelist, even if they're the most skilled in their clan with their types of weaponry. I don't think I'd put them above or at even Inquisitor level. And trained Force-sensitives don't need to rely on sight to duel, as Dooku notes in the fight, so them being invisible isn't a massive edge.
Dooku also held his own quite well against Ventress and two of the most skilled Nightsisters simultaneously whilst drugged and with them being invisible.
Originally posted by SunRazerLmao, she's still 14 years old and has only been training under Anakin, for what, a few weeks, months?
Weaker versions of Ventress, yeah.
Originally posted by SunRazerIIRC Ahsoka fought Ventress in 22 BBY ("Cloak of Darkness"😉 -- Rebels by Season 2 is 3 BBY; so 19 years of powergrowth. But let's not get caught up in semantics with this point.
15 years, not 20. There's only 14 years between RotS and Rebels.
Part 3 of 3:
Originally posted by SunRazerNot necessarily saying he improved skill-wise, but with an increase in power his augmentative abilities would've increased, making him overall more effective.
Who said Old Maul improved as a swordsman since SoD? Growing in power is a nice indicator but hardly a certain one.
Originally posted by SunRazerI don't think that's the case in Canon for Vader -- but either way, good thing Maul doesn't have a gigantic robotic suit he has to wear that could potentially hamper his abilities. *shrug*
In Legends, Vader grew in power following RotS, but became a worse duelist because of the restrictions of his suit.
Originally posted by SunRazerMaul is far more physically orientated and obsessed than Kenobi, so I find it unlikely he would've allowed himself to deteriorate like Kenobi did.
Likewise, Ben Kenobi also grew in power, but became a worse swordsman due to lack of practice. Unless Maul regularly dueled in exile, he probably deteriorated more than anything. I'm willing to say he's equal to SoD Maul, though.
Originally posted by SunRazerShe's about as equally skilled as Maul which would still place her close to Dooku in skill, and she matched Maul's physicals which are likely superior to his SoD physicals through Force augmentation. I've covered the misconception that Ahsoka doesn't use a whole lot of her strength and LOL @ the claim she doesn't use a lot of ferocity in her form. And how is Dooku being more powerful than her change the fact she still drastically outstrips him physically and is close to him in skill, two combinations that should make Ahsoka the likely victor?
So if Ahsoka's about equal with Maul, she'd be a bit below Dooku as a swordsman, and she doesn't use a whole lot of strength or ferocity in her form to take advantage of Makashi's weaknesses. Dooku's also more powerful than her. I'm not seeing where a majority comes into play.
Originally posted by SunRazerTholme isn't that great in the grand scheme of things, I don't think. And people get disarmed all the time in duels and can recover. Point is, Dooku only "defeated" Bulq through use of the Force.
Force Lightning after disarming Bulq of one of his blades whilst in combat with Tholme. Also, Bulq's one of the most skilled Jedi ever and challenged Mace. He's not going down to Ahsoka without giving her a great fight - harder than the one he gave Dooku, IMO. And I'm just listing the Count's showings.
Originally posted by SunRazerHence the gif. 🙂
Regarding Vos, I'm referring to Legends, not Canon, of course.
Originally posted by SunRazer
There's the likes of Tiin,
Originally posted by SunRazer
Kolar
Originally posted by SunRazer
and Kit,
lol, I can't even click on "quote post". I better get rewarded for this. Anyway, I'm not going to respond to everything - not the things that get covered more than once.
It's been shown that Dooku also uses the Force in his spars with Grievous, which may or may not have been contributors in the regularity of Grievous's defeats.
You already conceded further down your post that the Force was irrelevant to Dooku's victories over Grievous. Moving on.
Ahsoka at 16 y/o was performing admirably against Grievous's strength, and even at one point pushed Grievous back in a blade-lock in order to escape.
Canon Grievous is highly inconsistent and goes from pressing the likes of Obi-Wan/Maul to having Nahdar "perform admirably" against his strength and even push him back (and Nahdar did wreck the Magnaguards earlier, but heck, even they are hugely inconsistent).
Dooku pushed back TCW Anakin during their Naboo fight once as well, even though he was the one being pushed back for most of the fight, as you noted.
Add 17 years of power growth, her Force augmentative powers should be vastly greater, adding to the amount of strength she can bring to the table.
Fair enough.
Dooku can't ragdoll Ahsoka like he can Grievous
What are Ahsoka's Force feats besides landing a leeway Force Push?
and Ahsoka is more skilled than Grievous (Kenobi in RotS seemed only to be having difficulties with his speed, not necessarily skill
Obi-Wan had access to a form that specifically countered Grievous', though.
and Ahsoka is fighting evenly with Kenobi's peer in skill, Maul, and holding out against Vader), which is extremely important in an effective application of strength, especially against a Makashi user.
Even with the off-panel part, their duel was hardly over 20 seconds.
That said, I agree she's strong enough to not "sloppily" apply her strength, as Beni would describe it.
She doesn't have to be Anakin. But regardless, her physical strength is quite insane:
Agreed with this and the Djem So talk, since I can't be bothered making a response to that. I'll address your overemphasis of Anakin's strength advantage over Dooku later.
That said, your "leverage' argument works for Dooku as well, since he blocked an attack from Anakin in a similar position here, not to mention Anakin's Force leap building up momentum for him (and shortly afterwards, he also pushes Anakin back after a saberlock):
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=185
Ahsoka has a strength advantage and stamina advantage, comparable, though admittedly slightly inferior skill. If Ahsoka can maintain an assault, Dooku will eventually begin to tire and the overall advantage falls to Ahsoka.
That didn't work for Grievous. Stamina I'm addressing below, as I said.
Vader isn't "vastly" more powerful than Ahsoka, lol. If there was a massive Force deficit she wouldn't be giving Vader the fight she did, and she wouldn't be stated to "stand with the best" when it comes to the Force (Rebels Recon).
I'll have to see the quote from recon, and even then, Plo Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, but Dooku could tear him apart. Your other argument is downright flawed. Obi-Wan did better against Maul than Ahsoka did against Vader, and he's indeed vastly less powerful, so your logic's flawed. Hardly the only example, by the way - at least if we're going by Legends. Ventress contended with Anakin, Brianna rivaled Atris, etc. in lightsaber contests, but they're indeed vastly less powerful and were promptly stomped in the Force.
RotS Anakin? Obviously. But when RotS Anakin is near buckling Dooku's wrists and making Dooku shit himself each time he blocks, I'd say you don't necessarily need to be at that level in strength to press a large advantage against him.
You're overexaggerating the strength/stamina weakness here. You're taking in only the RotS novel, which is only one specific take on the fight. And even there, with Dooku "aging ten decades" per block, after he gets kicked down from the balcony, he draws the Force in and removes all that fatigue immediately:
"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away."
-- Revenge of the Sith Novelization
I mean, you' know how tired he is, and if just a moment's respite is enough for him to eradicate his fatigue instantly, then could you not see him doing something similar here? If he manages to get a moment of respite, somehow - for instance, if he TK'd Ahsoka away, he'd be able to just rejuvenate himself.
That aside, as I mentioned above, you're only considering the RotS novel, which is only one take on the fight. In the film/comic, Anakin isn't pressing anything near such a drastic strength edge over Dooku, at least until he enters "the zone". The film script? I'll link it for you here: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html
But there's something worth noting in there:
"As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry."
-- Revenge of the Sith script
Note that Dooku is tiring at the same rate as Obi-Wan, which is actually a very good level of stamina. On that subject, Silver once made a good point on CV that Anakin tiring Dooku was the exception, rather than the rule. That would explain why Dooku's stamina is actually up there with Obi-Wan - since he's been fine against the likes of Grievous - and Obi-Wan also tired under an immensely hindered RotS Anakin's attacks, so actually, it's more to do with the stupidly immense Force reserves and physical strength that RotS Anakin has rather than Dooku's own lack of stamina. Also note that the script mentions "intense fighting" more than once after this, so clearly, while Dooku does tire, he can keep on fighting, which is once again a testament to his stamina more than anything else.
The junior novel has Anakin unable to outlast Dooku since the latter can sustain himself indefinitely:
"He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed. "
-- Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization
Do I take this as the gospel truth? No, but it's yet another take on the fight. The RotS novel and junior novel are simply polar opposite depictions of the fight. And other than personal confirmation biases, there's not really much of a reason to take one over the other. Regardless, there is one theme that is consistent in every iteration of RotS - that Dooku actually has really good stamina. In the script, his stamina is about the same as Obi-Wan's, whom I'm sure you wouldn't be pushing as somebody who would tire rapidly under Ahsoka's attacks. In the novel, he can eradicate his fatigue as soon as he gets some respite - which he likely will in a fight against Ahsoka, be it through landing some leeway kick or TK. And the junior novel has Dooku sustaining himself for indefinitely through the dark side. Pick whatever you want, but Ahsoka sure as hell ain't tiring the Count out in the way you're making it out to be.
What quotes, and wouldn't that conflict with the fact Yoda disarmed Sidious with the blade?
Not necessarily. I mean, at most, Sidious would only be slightly more skilled than Yoda, and Yoda can feasibly win a couple rounds out of ten, say 4. What we saw in the junior novel (I believe it's not in another other source?) could just be one of those four rounds.
I'm referring to the quote that claims "Sidious can defeat even the greatest Jedi in lightsaber duels" or something like that. It seems to support Filoni's take on the fact that Sidious can beat anyone in Canon (bar the Ones, of course).
The sources I posted seem to imply or outright show Yoda's superior skill. I would like the sources saying Dooku held his own against Yoda when it came to lightsaber skill, though.
Here:
"It was Count Dooku's combination of finesse and superior craftsmanship that enabled him to best both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, as well as hold his own against Jedi Master Yoda, during the Battle of Geonosis."-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #68
Regarding Dooku's performance against Yoda, as you mentioned, most of Yoda's advantage comes down to vastly greater power/reserves/physicals, especially in the novel. There's different takes on the fight in the different versions of the film, as you'd expect, but interestingly, just about every supplementary source doesn't suggest that Dooku was having his shit pushed in, with many quotes praising Dooku's performance against Yoda.
And apparently the new Star Wars Fact File says:
"Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former padawan."
Apparently referring to skill there. So that does support the notion that Yoda's advantage lies in his greater power/physicals as opposed to technical skill.
Uh, no, she held them off for over two minutes -- I timed it.
I'm talking about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzNbjhYANYQ
Where she first jumps to higher ground for an advantage, then the fight starts with her almost exclusively dueling Anakin, then Obi-Wan joins in, they have about fifteen seconds of a fight, and then she runs away again. And that's the last of properly "holding her own".
Mmm, interesting, but wouldn't Dark Rendezvous's timeline be pushed back, seeing as how in TCW Ventress stayed under Dooku's tutelage much shorter? Either way, has Yoda actually seen Mace fight to his full extent between Haruun Kal and Dark Rendezvous?.
No, that's just TCW's stupidity and ignorance for continuity, so it becomes a massive retcon. Timelines don't get pushed back. The novel was written to be months before RotS. As for whether or not Yoda has seen Mace fight, well, the course of the war might've given them a chance to spar a bit, but other than that? I can't remember them going on similar missions.
Canon seems to have a vastly different take on Vader than Legends, wouldn't you agree? And if what you mean by adjusting is what I think you mean, then:
Sorry, but because it was "designed" to overcome the restrictions doesn't mean it was entirely successful in doing it. Vader designed his form to counter the restrictions in Legends as well, but sources have told us he was still restricted compared to RotS Anakin by ANH.
I don't know why Anakin having a purer use of Djem So matters. Vader's style is more versatile and covers his bases more, and he still posses the same mastery of Djem So regardless, but with more experience and more general intelligence to make himself a better fighter in general. Speaking of Djem So -- Ahsoka has the advantage of that form over the Count, but she doesn't have the disadvantage of lacking mobility because of it, so Dooku can't exploit that like he did with Anakin. And yeah, obviously anyone would be desperate, but I was simply responding to you claiming he "held his own" when he was really getting trashed.
Because when your form is being diluted by adding in all these other forms, there's less of an emphasis on Djem So, which is the strength-oriented part.
And you can't juggle between Ahsoka having the strength advantage in Djem So and then not having Anakin's immobility that the Count can't exploit. She can only use one form at a time - either Djem So, or Ataru. If she's going for Djem So, she won't be as mobile as when she's using Ataru.
Interesting -- so when Dooku's stamina wanes, an opponent who he's usually comfortably ahead can make him hard-pressed to outduel.
I offered a potential explanation, not a conclusive or definitive one.
In red, is everything Vader and Skywalker hold in common. Vader possess greater strength than Skywalker and is also relentless, as seen in his fight with Ahsoka. In purple is how Dooku reacts to it. Compare that to how Ahsoka deals with Vader, and it's clear she handles Vader's strength far better (which obviously indicates she's much stronger than Dooku) and her stamina doesn't deplete nearly as quickly. Holding off a similarly dominating fighter in Vader for two minutes >>> Dooku's performance against Skywalker, at least as it relates to stamina and strength.
Sorry, but you're comparing Anakin and Vader way too much. Ahsoka doing better against Vader than Dooku did against Anakin proves that she's stronger, but that in of itself does not, in any way, indicate how Ahsoka would do against Dooku relative to how Anakin did. To do that, you have to compare Anakin to Ahsoka.
What matters here is that Ahsoka isn't as based in Djem So as Anakin and isn't as skilled in the form, isn't as skilled as Anakin in general, lacks Anakin's physical strength, and completely lacks Anakin's Force reserves and augmentation. Moreover, she's never once demonstrated that same level of insanely relentless assault that Anakin made against Dooku. She's not pressuring Dooku nearly as much as Anakin did.
And the nail in the coffin is the fact that you don't know how much Ahsoka tired under Vader's blows. We only have a film version to judge - from the RotS film alone, would you judge that Dooku was tiring nearly as badly as the novel depicts? Hardly. A novelized version of the fight might offer a better insight into this, but as of yet, she could well be tiring under Vader, just still having the stamina to keep fighting (not suggesting that she would've tired like Dooku did against Anakin, of course).
For that matter, most of the first part of her engagement with Vader is dodging his blows - hardly meeting them head on, anyway.
Even still, we see in Dooku's fights with Ventress he abuses his Force advantage.
So? That doesn't mean he's forced to - the Witches of the Mist fight proves that Ventress can't directly stand up to Dooku in a physical fight and has to run away.
Which is very impressive, but do Nightsisters even have lightsaber training? I think any of them would be outclassed by a high-tier duelist, even if they're the most skilled in their clan with their types of weaponry. I don't think I'd put them above or at even Inquisitor level. And trained Force-sensitives don't need to rely on sight to duel, as Dooku notes in the fight, so them being invisible isn't a massive edge.
It'd be stupid of those Nightsisters to wield lightsabers for the first time against Dooku. I assume they had some level of training in lightsaber combat - at least, those ones. Otherwise, why would they use lightsabers?
Maul is far more physically orientated and obsessed than Kenobi, so I find it unlikely he would've allowed himself to deteriorate like Kenobi did.
That has nothing to do with skill, and Maul doesn't get to choose his level of deterioration. Practice against thin air doesn't stop you from deteriorating to an extent. You have to practice against skilled adversaries. But I already said we can consider Maul equal to his SoD incarnation for the sake of not having another point to debate.
I'm not addressing the next few points, because I agree with your responses.
And how is Dooku being more powerful than her change the fact she still drastically outstrips him physically and is close to him in skill, two combinations that should make Ahsoka the likely victor?
Grievous had that advantage as well, yet he lost every time he fought Dooku.
To sum up? You're vastly overexaggerating Dooku's stamina issues, and overexaggerating Anakin's pressuring of the Count by using just one source. I've given a bigger picture and indicated that Tyranus' stamina is more along the lines of Obi-Wan, that he can restore his stamina with just a moment's respite (which, in a realistic fight, will happen, since it's not just going to be Ahsoka driving Tyranus back endlessly until she wins). Your argument is also based a lot on Vader, whereas the real comparison is between Ahsoka and Anakin, and there, Anakin's just better in every way.
With that said, Tyranus is in fact the more skilled combatant out of the two, and it's not like he doesn't have experience fighting stronger enemies or relentless ones (he fights Grievous on a regular basis). If Ahsoka decides to go all Anakin on Dooku, that doesn't mean she'll be as successful - perhaps not even nearly. She's not as skilled as the Count, unlike Anakin, and she has nowhere near the seemingly endless Force reserves he demonstrated in the novel - not to mention he notes that the Force was extraordinarily strong with him that day, however you want to take that. And in the end, you're overplaying the extent of Anakin's strength/stamina edge. Despite Stover's immensely hyperbolic descriptions of Dooku's fatigue, he still managed to kick Anakin/Obi-Wan away and KO Obi-Wan with the Force, and managed to recover after getting kicked in the face over the balcony and falling at speeds "resembling terminal velocity". And after that, he literally just washed away the fatigue by drawing upon the Force. Once Dooku gets tired against Ahsoka, he only needs to try and break away from the fight via a melee strike or something to gather the Force and replenish himself. On the other hand, Dooku's greater skill is a consistent advantage throughout the duel and a more reliable way of winning than Ahsoka's "tire-out" strategy. Ahsoka has no actual counter for Tyranus' greater skill, either.
Nyriss saves her team. She can take on both Kenobi and Luke at the same time; she did that with Meetra and Scourge, and these two are just better duo than Kenobi and Luke. She basically mopped the floor with them; even if you are as brave as to say RotS Kenobi+RotJ Luke > Meetra+Scourge, can you really argue the gap between these two is enough to change Nyriss from CRUSHING to losing?
Since she was crushing Meetra+Scourge, team that is at absolute worst "around" level of RotS Obi+RotJ Luke, she at the worst scenario beats these two in a good fight.
Exar Kun can defeat Ahsoka; they are similarly skilled as martial artists, pretty difficult to compare them to make a judgement, but Kun's far more powerful than her, so he basically holds the only clear edge in that fight.
Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Maul is decided by lightsaber combat; both are titans, but Maul just comes off as better. However, Maul won't save his team, when everyone else falls before Kun and Nyriss.
Originally posted by JKBartHow can anyone take you seriously if you have Hitler as your avatar?
Nyriss saves her team. She can take on both Kenobi and Luke at the same time; she did that with Meetra and Scourge, and these two are just better duo than Kenobi and Luke. She basically mopped the floor with them; even if you are as brave as to say RotS Kenobi+RotJ Luke > Meetra+Scourge, can you really argue the gap between these two is enough to change Nyriss from CRUSHING to losing?Since she was crushing Meetra+Scourge, team that is at absolute worst "around" level of RotS Obi+RotJ Luke, she at the worst scenario beats these two in a good fight.
Exar Kun can defeat Ahsoka; they are similarly skilled as martial artists, pretty difficult to compare them to make a judgement, but Kun's far more powerful than her, so he basically holds the only clear edge in that fight.
Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Maul is decided by lightsaber combat; both are titans, but Maul just comes off as better. However, Maul won't save his team, when everyone else falls before Kun and Nyriss.