Originally posted by SunRazerShe's also more powerful.
Bump. They're about even in terms of straight up skill; Qui-Gon's physically stronger and could strain Asajj that way but Ventress is faster and more nimble. The big thing is that Ventress' stamina is better than Qui-Gon's. I suspect most people would favour Ventress, including myself at first, but I'm wondering if Qui-Gon's encyclopedic knowledge of Makashi would give him the edge he needs to win a majority here.
yea not sure what qui gon's strength is doing vs someone who's dealt with tcw anakin/ tcw kenobi throughout the war or who when with two blades was stalemating oppress under unfavorable circumstances.
Also skill wise, driving back dooku, beating fisto while massvely pre prime, holding her own with tcw anakin/kenobi seems better to me than fighting evenly with tpm maul with the aid of someone who was by this point already approaching qui gon in skill.
And while qui gon may have indepth knowledge of makashi, ventress has already faced kenobi multiple times, someone's who's ataru application is certainly superior to qui gon's given how it fared vs a superior version of maul
And yea there's also her being more powerful
Siding with ventress
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
based on?
I hope its more than maul being a tier 8
Better feats (matching Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan, humbling Anoon Bondara, and beating ANH Vader) and accolades (Sidious musing that his skills are "nonpareil" and "peerless" on different occasions, him being "all but invincible" in battle, and being repeatedly called one of the premier Sith in the mythos, etc.)
He's also just better with the Force — being trained in all walks of Sith life, being able to blunt Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's use of the Force and cloud Obi-Wan's mind mid-combat, vastly outstripping the Force knowledge of Mighella (classic Nightsisters were supposed to be highly powerful and knowledgeable in the Force), having raw power that eclipses that of Talzin's, etc.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
yea not sure what qui gon's strength is doing vs someone who's dealt with tcw anakin/ tcw kenobi throughout the war or who when with two blades was stalemating oppress under unfavorable circumstances.
Ventress has only fought them in the early stages of TCW - their strength feats up to then aren't better than going head-to-head with Maul; not even as good, actually.
The point about Savage is fair.
Also skill wise, driving back dooku
That was very brief. Qui-Gon drove back Maul for a substantially longer period of time on Naboo, and was able to do it consistently against Maul on Tatooine as opposed to Ventress only being able to do it once.
For the record, even AotC Obi-Wan managed this briefly and yet Dooku was still left expecting more from Qui-Gon's legacy.
beating fisto while massvely pre prime
With a form that specifically countered his. And after studying him. Given Qui-Gon's own superiority to Kit, this isn't something out of Qui-Gon's paygrade in the slightest.
holding her own with tcw anakin/kenobi seems better to me than fighting evenly with tpm maul with the aid of someone who was by this point already approaching qui gon in skill.
Is there a specific quote for Obi-Wan approaching Qui-Gon in skill?
And no, Qui-Gon was a match for Maul on Tatooine until he started tiring.
And while qui gon may have indepth knowledge of makashi, ventress has already faced kenobi multiple times, someone's who's ataru application is certainly superior to qui gon's given how it fared vs a superior version of maul
A bit of an understatement here. Qui-Gon doesn't just have an "in-depth knowledge" of Makashi; he's mastered the form, and more importantly, has sparred with Dooku thousands of times - an amount sufficient to give Dooku encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru and its weaknesses. One can surmise that the same would be true for Qui-Gon and Makashi.
By contrast, Ventress is no doubt familiar with Ataru but certainly doesn't have anything approaching Qui-Gon's handle on Makashi. She will probably recognise some of Qui-Gon's techniques through her experiences with Obi-Wan, but that won't be the same as Qui-Gon knowing all of her moves. After all, Ventress is established by sources as using Dooku's specific fighting style (just an imperfect version of it), and Qui-Gon, having sparred thousands of times with Dooku, would literally know every move she makes and how to counter it.
As for fighting Obi-Wan, Ventress only did that in the early seasons of TCW. Obi-Wan's showings against Maul all came afterwards.
And yea there's also her being more powerful
Yeah, unfortunately Qui-Gon just isn't very explored with the Force. We do have him Mind Tricking Hutts, casually using TK to pull Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos from a river whose currents were outmatching their strength and simultaneously communicating with Obi-Wan via TP, and possessing a "perfect mastery of the Force". As well as the RotS novel claiming that he was a legendary Jedi Master; the context of the quote suggests that Qui-Gon's legendariness is similar to Dooku's — which the novel had earlier defined as being one of the most powerful and respected Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history. So the implication is that Qui-Gon is also one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history.
Not enough to put him on par with Ventress, but pretty good all the same.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Ventress has only fought them in the early stages of TCW - their strength feats up to then aren't better than going head-to-head with Maul; not even as good, actually.The point about Savage is fair.
That was very brief. Qui-Gon drove back Maul for a substantially longer period of time on Naboo, and was able to do it consistently against Maul on Tatooine as opposed to Ventress only being able to do it once.
For the record, even AotC Obi-Wan managed this briefly and yet Dooku was still left expecting more from Qui-Gon's legacy.
With a form that specifically countered his. And after studying him. Given Qui-Gon's own superiority to Kit, this isn't something out of Qui-Gon's paygrade in the slightest.
Is there a specific quote for Obi-Wan approaching Qui-Gon in skill?
And no, Qui-Gon was a match for Maul on Tatooine until he started tiring.
A bit of an understatement here. Qui-Gon doesn't just have an "in-depth knowledge" of Makashi; he's mastered the form, and more importantly, has sparred with Dooku thousands of times - an amount sufficient to give Dooku encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru and its weaknesses. One can surmise that the same would be true for Qui-Gon and Makashi.
By contrast, Ventress is no doubt familiar with Ataru but certainly doesn't have anything approaching Qui-Gon's handle on Makashi. She will probably recognise some of Qui-Gon's techniques through her experiences with Obi-Wan, but that won't be the same as Qui-Gon knowing all of her moves. After all, Ventress is established by sources as using Dooku's specific fighting style (just an imperfect version of it), and Qui-Gon, having sparred thousands of times with Dooku, would literally know every move she makes and how to counter it.
As for fighting Obi-Wan, Ventress only did that in the early seasons of TCW. Obi-Wan's showings against Maul all came afterwards.
Though wasn't there her duel vs anakin where she gave him a scar(off course that part of the fight was an abush)? Also for what its worth she was able to land multiple hits with metal instruments when facing anakin in season 5 despite being ragdolled right after.
Off course ventress was also pre prime i those fights vs the duo. Off course there was her fight in dd vs grevious(though that may have been on a darkside nexus iirc)
2. fair points.
3. Forgot about the fisto being a tier 7
4. Basing this on qui-gon being uncertain about his ability to beat pre-tpm kenobi in a sparring session which escalated into a serious fight with raised stakes(though he wins eventually)
Qui gon started getting driven back in about 20 seconds, Him specifically being able to match him in skill briefly really doesn't change he;s signifcantly inferior overall. And on naboo he drove maul back after getting several seconds to fully recharge his stamina.
5.
Fair points. Though ventress making use of jarkai makes her style distinctly seperate from dooku's
Off course qui gon's is seperate from kenobi's and is far less acrobatic.
6.
Fair
Yea there's actually a solid case for qui gon winning as a duelist, off course the likely force gap should give ventress the edge
As for tpm maul, yea, he should be better. His accolades certainly beat Ti's. Unforutantely ventress doesn't get scaling from later versions of tcw kenobi/anakin unlike say grevious.
Off course theres her performance vs grevious but those were with amps and on even ground their showings vs kenobi and dooku's assessmet has grevious who does get scaling from later versions of kenobi as superior.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Fair point, especially given how those versions of the dream team were getting wrecked by oppress and falining to deal with season 3 ahsoka.Though wasn't there her duel vs anakin where she gave him a scar(off course that part of the fight was an abush)? Also for what its worth she was able to land multiple hits with metal instruments when facing anakin in season 5 despite being ragdolled right after.
She landed one hit by getting the higher ground and then kicking him as soon as he jumped up, followed by a punch. That was it. The rest of the fight was her running away. When Anakin caught up to her, she was crushed.
EDIT: Never mind, she connected a blow with one of her metal weapons. Superficial all the same, though.
Off course ventress was also pre prime i those fights vs the duo. Off course there was her fight in dd vs grevious(though that may have been on a darkside nexus iirc)
That's fair.
4. Basing this on qui-gon being uncertain about his ability to beat pre-tpm kenobi in a sparring session which escalated into a serious fight with raised stakes(though he wins eventually)
Where's this? Qui-Gon is pretty confident of his superiority in the TPM novel despite Obi-Wan being faster, and even by AotC Obi-Wan hasn't reached Qui-Gon's level yet. Presumably, Qui-Gon's an 8, whereas Obi-Wan's still a 7 in AotC.
Qui gon started getting driven back in about 20 seconds, Him specifically being able to match him in skill briefly really doesn't change he;s signifcantly inferior overall.
Not really. The latest rendition of that fight in Legends had it from Maul's perspective, and Maul notes that he only started getting an edge when Qui-Gon's stamina started flagging. Even the TPM novelization, which is very generous towards Maul, has Qui-Gon and Maul driving each other back and forth after the initial stage where Maul has the clear advantage.
And on naboo he drove maul back after getting several seconds to fully recharge his stamina.
Actually, I'm talking about the part before he gets rest. Here: https://youtu.be/yHqdESArkqU?t=84
That's 1:24 - 1:55. I know there's synctime, but it's 31 seconds of Qui-Gon driving Maul back.
And both Qui-Gon and Maul got time to rest during the break. Except Maul didn't need it - he stayed fresh throughout the fight. Whereas Qui-Gon tired and was nearing exhaustion by the time of the break. So the fact that he managed to keep applying pressure on Maul and drive him back is an incredibly good feat on his part.
5.
Fair points. Though ventress making use of jarkai makes her style distinctly seperate from dooku'sOff course qui gon's is seperate from kenobi's and is far less acrobatic.[/b]
Not that distinct. Luminara Unduli was able to recognise that style even with her vision clouded. IIRC, there's various others who recognise it as Dooku's style; that's good enough for Qui-Gon to captitalise on it. Whereas Obi-Wan primarily uses Soresu and only uses Ataru sparingly against Ventress, so she would only be able to read so much of Qui-Gon's Ataru even if it was identical to Obi-Wan's.
6.
FairYea there's actually a solid case for qui gon winning as a duelist, off course the likely force gap should give ventress the edge
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Originally posted by SunRazer
She landed one hit by getting the higher ground and then kicking him as soon as he jumped up, followed by a punch. That was it. The rest of the fight was her running away. When Anakin caught up to her, she was crushed.EDIT: Never mind, she connected a blow with one of her metal weapons. Superficial all the same, though.
That's fair.
Where's this? Qui-Gon is pretty confident of his superiority in the TPM novel despite Obi-Wan being faster, and even by AotC Obi-Wan hasn't reached Qui-Gon's level yet. Presumably, Qui-Gon's an 8, whereas Obi-Wan's still a 7 in AotC.
Not really. The latest rendition of that fight in Legends had it from Maul's perspective, and Maul notes that he only started getting an edge when Qui-Gon's stamina started flagging. Even the TPM novelization, which is very generous towards Maul, has Qui-Gon and Maul driving each other back and forth after the initial stage where Maul has the clear advantage.
Actually, I'm talking about the part before he gets rest. Here: https://youtu.be/yHqdESArkqU?t=84
That's 1:24 - 1:55. I know there's synctime, but it's 31 seconds of Qui-Gon driving Maul back.
And both Qui-Gon and Maul got time to rest during the break. Except Maul didn't need it - he stayed fresh throughout the fight. Whereas Qui-Gon tired and was nearing exhaustion by the time of the break. So the fact that he managed to keep applying pressure on Maul and drive him back is an incredibly good feat on his part.
Not that distinct. Luminara Unduli was able to recognise that style even with her vision clouded. IIRC, there's various others who recognise it as Dooku's style; that's good enough for Qui-Gon to captitalise on it. Whereas Obi-Wan primarily uses Soresu and only uses Ataru sparingly against Ventress, so she would only be able to read so much of Qui-Gon's Ataru even if it was identical to Obi-Wan's.
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3. Emperor 339 posted it, though as stated before it was a sparring session so I'd take tpm novelization over it anyway.
4. Fair
5. Wasn't maul leading qui gon to a location of his choosing there?
6. Fair points
5. Wasn't maul leading qui gon to a location of his choosing there?
Yes, but once the shields activated and Qui-Gon was allowed to meditate, everything changed. Once the shields came down Jinn actually came onto Maul so hard that he was stymied and literally was not sure if he would actually survive. Not only that, but Maul is almost killed by Jinn, just barely managing to jump over the pit before getting cut down.
Jinn definitively wins. He has an in-depth knowledge of Form II, and going against Ventress' unrefined style wouldn't be too hard. I suspect his power blows would get the better of her, and his defense would be adequate enough due to his thorough understanding of Form II to stone wall any offense on her part.
Let's remember that Jinn on Tantooine was 'surging back and forth' with Maul, a master of Form VII, the most aggressive lightsaber form, which is highly impressive for a Form IV specialist.
So, like I said, Jinn definitively wins.
PS I don't believe Kenobi's Ataru *ever* got to the same level as Qui-Gon's.