@samappo
Note: I'd just like to make a note that in many of your rebuttals you made claims that were unsupported by the preceding or following passages you posted. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming most of your claims are verified by the passage that covers their fight in the novel, but for future reference, it's common courtesy to source your claims before or after your post rather then interspersed throughout as it makes much harder to check and respond to.
[[Ah but not all of the text is taken into account, just one passage that works in your favor.]]
There are about 2 or 3 other posts that say pretty much the same thing. Would you like me to post them for you?
[[Here it says that Jinn matched Maul blow to blow. It also displays Jinn's experience in high intensity lightsaber duels, since Jinn remembered Anakin, yet Maul did not.
Obviously, the fact that Jinn was his first worthy opponent (not considering Sidious who is leagues above both) other than gangsters etc. is not surprising, however, Maul was committed to the challenge, which means Jinn matched him]]
I'm sorry, but Jinn being a challenge that Maul was determined to overcome does not mean he was his equal. I never doubted Jinn being able to match Maul's strength for a time but he has to draw heavily on his Force reserves to do so and obviously runs out of stamina far quicker then Maul as is noted in the passage itself.
[[Despite Jinn facing Maul's Form VII offensive, he did not become unbalanced in the sand, despite every attempt by Maul.]]
Yes, it shows that Jinn is skilled at adapting to his environment. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us much about his technical skill in regards to lightsaber combat.
[[Jinn is so advanced a duelist that he can see what Darth Maul (a solid 8) is going to do before it happens. He even goes as far as to say that the fight was over. However he didn't anticipate Jinn's flagging stamina.]]
Where does Jinn say the fight is over? If you're referring to Maul, he's not saying his fight with Jinn is over, he's saying that if an opponent has a solid grasp of your fighting capabilities and the style you employ it means they have a good chance of beating you. It's why Maul changes up his method of attack, so that Jinn can't get a good grasp of how his opponent will act.
[[At this point I will point out that in the novelisation, in Jinn's perspective, Maul was: younger, quicker and stronger than Qui-Gon.]]
Yes, Maul is physically superior to Jinn.
[[The Jedi Master blocked him again and again, but could not find an opening that would give him any chance of escape.]]
Just wanted to focus on this passage for a moment since you brought it up. It's rather telling that despite his best efforts to disengage with Maul the Zabrak gave him no openings to do so. Qui Gon wasn't even trying to beat him, simply escape, something that should have been easy for Jinn to have accomplished had he possessed equal skill and equal augmentation against an opponent with an injury.
Note also, Jinn knew all he had to do was get back to the ship where he could recover his energies and rest meaning he would have no reason to be drawing on his reserves to a far greater degree then he would have during a normal fight unlike Maul who had wheathered a sandstorm and fought off pirates and mercenaries beforehand and knew that if he defeated Jinn he would need to fight off the remaining passengers on the Queen's ship.
[[Qui-Gon could read Maul's every move, despite Form VII being a highly randomised form that used unconnected sequences to confuse adversaries. This feat by Jinn can be attributed to his experience facing Form VII (Bondara) on a regular basis, as well as his strength in the force. What makes this even more impressive however, is that every Form VII application is quite different, since the user draws from the styles they learnt.]]
An impressive feat to be sure, but again, this only applies to the style Maul employed at the beginning of the fight. Like standard Juyo forms that he through out as soon as he realized his opponent knew how to counter them.
[[This shows that the battle was 'back and forth' and definitely not a one-sided engagement. The open nature of the field of battle would definitely help Jinn due to his reliance on Form IV. This also means Jinn put Maul on the defensive half the time as well.]]
Maul's injury and Jinn recklessly expending Force energy to keep up helps to explain his performance. After a short interval Jinn is running on fumes and begins to lose.
"It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best." - The Phantom Menace.
"I feel the Jedi is beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him." - The Phantom Menace.
[[I will note that Darth Maul is slightly better than Jinn, but only due to the Jedi Master's age and reduced stamina. But this only came into effect in both battles during the end stage.]]
Direct quotes, supported by Maul's injury and Jinn's energy usage in their first fight would indicate that such an assessment is off. While I could agree that Jinn approaches Maul in regards to technical skill he's still unable to match him.
[[This is more impressive for Darth Maul than Jinn, but regardless, Jinn immediately followed up on Maul's attempt to enter the ship, and Jinn was able to overpower Maul, though granted Maul was on the lower end of the ramp.]]
Again, you're ignoring context. The novel states he was "balanced precariously." A strong blow from any physically weaker combatant can send a physically stronger combatant over the edge if their position doesn't afford them balance.
@SunRazer
[[1. There's quite a few sources on this, but there's one saying that Maul only equalled the skills of the two Jedi and another saying that Maul "threatened to eclipse" the skills of the two, which means he hasn't actually done so. One can deduce that Maul isn't in fact more skilled. On the other hand, sources establish Maul as blunting the Jedi's use of the Force with the dark side and the TPM junior novelization in particular has Obi-Wan noting that Maul is clouding his mind. That could explain his advantage.]]
If Maul is matching both Qui Gon and Obi Wan simultaneously then yes, that still means his skill supersedes either of them or at least that his overall ability as a lightsaber combatant does. And if it's the latter that means he has to exceed the combined augmentation of both Jinn and TPM Kenobi. Yes, I'm aware of Maul clouding their minds. It would have taken Maul some effort to do so in the middle of combat. Obviously it was a more beneficial use of his energy then if he had diverted it to augmentation, but how much more beneficial is debatable.
[[2. That's a nice quote from Qui-Gon's perspective but the novel goes on to say that the two surge back and forth across the flats, which indicates a degree of relative parity between the two. Certainly the newest source on the fight, End Game, which is from Maul's perspective, depicts as much — with Qui-Gon only beginning to lose once his stamina flagged. We can presume that they were relatively equal otherwise, enough so that Maul actually thought the Force was actively favouring Qui-Gon over him.]]
I address this in my response to sam. Jinn has no reason to hold back in his energy usage unlike Maul meaning he is able to put more ( more then normal for him at least ) energy towards augmentation and matching or exceeding Maul's own. You might say that Jinn admitting Maul is faster, stronger, etc. would contradict this but I believe he's referring to their baseline physical capabilities since he prefaces the statement by noting that Maul is "younger."
[[3. Maul mentions it being there but "barely perceptible"; almost negligible. Qui-Gon himself wasn't exactly at his best either, since he had just been running through the desert. There's apparently sources that mention how tired he was even before engaging Maul in combat but I've yet to find them.]]
It's notable enough for Maul to believe it made a difference in the fight.
Then that's simply further highlights how much exponentially worse Jinn's stamina, energy reserves are in comparison to Maul. Regardless, Jinn has no reason to hold anything back as his only worry is his need to get to the ship where he can recover his energies before having to face Maul again.
Actually, two-vs-ones are literally never represented as a "combine the skills of the duo versus the singular" scenario. There's plenty of incidents where character X fights off both Y and Z simultaneously despite Y alone being an equal or near-equal to him. Dooku vs Obi-Wan/Anakin (especially in the junior novel) is a good example. Qui-Gon isn't a precise match for Maul but is pretty damn close barring his stamina deficiencies. Obi-Wan just wasn't a significant difference, especially with the unorthodoxy of Maul's saberstaff and Maul clouding their minds/blunting their use of the Force.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Actually, two-vs-ones are literally never represented as a "combine the skills of the duo versus the singular" scenario. There's plenty of incidents where character X fights off both Y and Z simultaneously despite Y alone being an equal or near-equal to him. Dooku vs Obi-Wan/Anakin (especially in the junior novel) is a good example. Qui-Gon isn't a precise match for Maul but is pretty damn close barring his stamina deficiencies. Obi-Wan just wasn't a significant difference, especially with the unorthodoxy of Maul's saberstaff and Maul clouding their minds/blunting their use of the Force.
I find Dooku to be more skilled then either Obi Wan or Anakin tbh.
IIRC Kenobi is one of the best combatants in the Order by this point.
Not in the Junior novel, where Dooku and Anakin were completely even on their own until Anakin drew on the dark side. And yet the Count was able to hold both him and Obi-Wan off simultaneously.
That's nice but not exactly going to make a substantial difference. If anything, it just goes to show how good Maul is.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
@samappoNote: I'd just like to make a note that in many of your rebuttals you made claims that were unsupported by the preceding or following passages you posted. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming most of your claims are verified by the passage that covers their fight in the novel, but for future reference, it's common courtesy to source your claims before or after your post rather then interspersed throughout as it makes much harder to check and respond to.
Yeah sorry I had to rush it, won't happen again in the future 🙂
There are about 2 or 3 other posts that say pretty much the same thing. Would you like me to post them for you?
Sure, why not?
I'm sorry, but Jinn being a challenge that Maul was determined to overcome does not mean he was his equal. I never doubted Jinn being able to match Maul's strength for a time but he has to draw heavily on his Force reserves to do so and obviously runs out of stamina far quicker then Maul as is noted in the passage itself.
If Jinn wasn't at least a match for Maul (until Jinn tired) then Maul wouldn't have trouble just cutting the Jedi Master down. Jinn matched and equalled Maul until Jinn ran out of stamina.
Yes, it shows that Jinn is skilled at adapting to his environment. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us much about his technical skill in regards to lightsaber combat.[quote]Defending Maul's attacks whilst balancing himself in the sand does show that he can defend himself, and therefore even on uneven terrain his lightsaber skills are good enough to defend against Maul's offense?
[[Jinn is so advanced a duelist that he can see what Darth Maul (a solid 8) is going to do before it happens. He even goes as far as to say that the fight was over. However he didn't anticipate Jinn's flagging stamina.]]
[quote]Where does Jinn say the fight is over? If you're referring to Maul, he's not saying his fight with Jinn is over, he's saying that if an opponent has a solid grasp of your fighting capabilities and the style you employ it means they have a good chance of beating you. It's why Maul changes up his method of attack, so that Jinn can't get a good grasp of how his opponent will act.
I'm referring to Maul. And I recall Maul thinking, if an opponent can read your moves, the battle is over. Obviously he didn't anticipate that Jinn was going to tire out quicker than Maul, and probably infers that he would be unable to actually beat Jinn if the Jedi Master could keep up for as long, since Jinn was reading his every move.
Just wanted to focus on this passage for a moment since you brought it up. It's rather telling that despite his best efforts to disengage with Maul the Zabrak gave him no openings to do so. Qui Gon wasn't even trying to beat him, simply escape, something that should have been easy for Jinn to have accomplished had he possessed equal skill and equal augmentation against an opponent with an injury.
I feel like your reasoning is flawed. Jinn could not find an opening, but nor could Maul. If I use your logic in reverse, I could say that Maul attacked again and again, but couldn't find an opening, even though Jinn was trying to escape more than win the duel. In this viewpoint it makes Maul look a little worse off. If the two were equal, then if Maul wanted to kill Jinn, and the Jedi Master was more concerned about escaping, then Maul would have gained an advantage, but it's clearly stated that only when Jinn started tiring did Maul get an advantage.
Note also, Jinn knew all he had to do was get back to the ship where he could recover his energies and rest meaning he would have no reason to be drawing on his reserves to a far greater degree then he would have during a normal fight unlike Maul who had wheathered a sandstorm and fought off pirates and mercenaries beforehand and knew that if he defeated Jinn he would need to fight off the remaining passengers on the Queen's ship.
Jinn had been running kilometers in the hot sun of Tantooine, I highly doubt Maul's injury or fight with mercenaries and pirates would give Jinn much of an advantage. Again, it's clearly stated in the novelisation that the fight was even and Maul only started getting an advantage when Jinn started to tire and slow down.
An impressive feat to be sure, but again, this only applies to the style Maul employed at the beginning of the fight. Like standard Juyo forms that he through out as soon as he realized his opponent knew how to counter them.
We can't be certain exactly how he changed his approach, but most likely he was mixing styles or something. That just gives more credit to Jinn.
Maul's injury and Jinn recklessly expending Force energy to keep up helps to explain his performance. After a short interval Jinn is running on fumes and begins to lose.
In spite of the fact that Jinn was preoccupied trying to find a way out, the fight surged back and forth. He was probably quite reckless to use the force to increase his stamina to optimal levels because he had been running in the Tantooine sun from the town to the ship, plus his mind was occupied elsewhere trying to escape.
"It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best." - The Phantom Menace."I feel the Jedi is beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him." - The Phantom Menace.
Direct quotes, supported by Maul's injury and Jinn's energy usage in their first fight would indicate that such an assessment is off. While I could agree that Jinn approaches Maul in regards to technical skill he's still unable to match him.
1. Let's define imperceptible: so slight, gradual, or subtle as not to be perceived.
It seems like Maul is over exaggerating a little bit, considering that Jinn not only did not expect a duel yet threw Maul off when he instantly blocked Maul's initial jump attacks, and yet had also had been running, indicates that both were not at their best. It's very wrong to definitively say Jinn had an advantage considering the context and since that statements is also Maul's point of view.
2. This is already known. Jinn loses once he tires out.
[[This is more impressive for Darth Maul than Jinn, but regardless, Jinn immediately followed up on Maul's attempt to enter the ship, and Jinn was able to overpower Maul, though granted Maul was on the lower end of the ramp.]]
Again, you're ignoring context. The novel states he was "balanced precariously." A strong blow from any physically weaker combatant can send a physically stronger combatant over the edge if their position doesn't afford them balance.
I said it's more impressive for Maul than for Jinn.
[[Yeah sorry I had to rush it, won't happen again in the future]]
No problem.
[[Sure, why not?]]
"Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi." - Star Wars Fact File 1.
"The battle began in the hanger. Darth Maul activated his double-ended lightsaber, a weapon he fashioned himself under my supervision. In his hands this weapon was flawless - or so I thought. He made the Jedi run. They had to use everything they knew and more to meet his skill. They went at him, two on one, and they could not defeat him." - Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul.
''They settled into a pattern then, working as a team against their enemy, waiting for an opening. But the Sith Lord was too smart to give them one, and so the battle had gone on.'' - The Phantom Menace.
[[If Jinn wasn't at least a match for Maul (until Jinn tired) then Maul wouldn't have trouble just cutting the Jedi Master down. Jinn matched and equalled Maul until Jinn ran out of stamina.]]
The difference being, Jinn has no reason to scale back the amount of energy he's drawing on from his reserves since his only goal is to escape while Maul has to partition his and was injured at the time.
[[I'm referring to Maul. And I recall Maul thinking, if an opponent can read your moves, the battle is over. Obviously he didn't anticipate that Jinn was going to tire out quicker than Maul, and probably infers that he would be unable to actually beat Jinn if the Jedi Master could keep up for as long, since Jinn was reading his every move.]]
I already addressed this in my last post. Maul's opening Juyo sequences were thrown out for the unorthodox when he realized Jinn was reading his moves.
[[I feel like your reasoning is flawed. Jinn could not find an opening, but nor could Maul. If I use your logic in reverse, I could say that Maul attacked again and again, but couldn't find an opening, even though Jinn was trying to escape more than win the duel. In this viewpoint it makes Maul look a little worse off. If the two were equal, then if Maul wanted to kill Jinn, and the Jedi Master was more concerned about escaping, then Maul would have gained an advantage, but it's clearly stated that only when Jinn started tiring did Maul get an advantage.]]
The difference being Maul was trying to find an opening in Jinn's defense which he could exploit while Jinn was simply trying to find an opening where he could escape back to the ship. The former requires that Jinn slip up in regards to lightsaber combat while the latter only requires that Qui Gon manage to gain some distance/time with which to make his escape. I'll let you decide what's the more difficult feat of the two. And no, simply because Jinn's goal is escaping does NOT mean he would be any less effective of a combatant. It makes him more effective because he only needs to focus on fighting defensively and exploiting any opportunity Maul gives him to escape. Given he was unable to accomplish this against an injured Maul despite having no reason not to draw fully on his reserves since he could recover them as soon as he was back on the ship, I'd say this puts Maul squarely ahead of Jinn in regards to skill.
The following is a good example of what I'm talking about above.
https://youtu.be/DMylmOlot4g?t=60
We see Maul sacrifice his positioning in an attempt to block off Jinn's escape by leaping over him. Maul is the only one being combatively restricted by Jinn's goal of escaping.
[[Jinn had been running kilometers in the hot sun of Tantooine, I highly doubt Maul's injury or fight with mercenaries and pirates would give Jinn much of an advantage. Again, it's clearly stated in the novelisation that the fight was even and Maul only started getting an advantage when Jinn started to tire and slow down.]]
And Maul had been fighting off bands of mercenaries and pirates. Your point? Also, we have a pretty good gauge of how much the injury affected Maul since we know he was at least Jinn and Kenobi's equal without it.
[[We can't be certain exactly how he changed his approach, but most likely he was mixing styles or something. That just gives more credit to Jinn.]]
That he could keep up with him at all? Yeah, sure. But it doesn't mean Jinn could read Maul past the initial opening sequence which is the point.
[[In spite of the fact that Jinn was preoccupied trying to find a way out, the fight surged back and forth. He was probably quite reckless to use the force to increase his stamina to optimal levels because he had been running in the Tantooine sun from the town to the ship, plus his mind was occupied elsewhere trying to escape.]]
Again, Jinn is not hindered by his goal of escape. He's benefiting from it because it forces Maul not only to have to focus on combating a Jinn drawing heavily on his reserves but also to plan on how to cut off potential escape attempts by Jinn.
[[1. Let's define imperceptible: so slight, gradual, or subtle as not to be perceived.
It seems like Maul is over exaggerating a little bit, considering that Jinn not only did not expect a duel yet threw Maul off when he instantly blocked Maul's initial jump attacks, and yet had also had been running, indicates that both were not at their best. It's very wrong to definitively say Jinn had an advantage considering the context and since that statements is also Maul's point of view.
2. This is already known. Jinn loses once he tires out.
This is more impressive for Darth Maul than Jinn, but regardless, Jinn immediately followed up on Maul's attempt to enter the ship, and Jinn was able to overpower Maul, though granted Maul was on the lower end of the ramp.]]
1. Yes. That is the textbook definition.
You cannot assume a character is exaggerating without evidence.
What do you mean Jinn wasn't expecting Maul? He saw Maul approaching on his speeder before engaging him in combat which is why he was able to warn Anakin to get down. He wasn't taken off guard.
Sorry but, Maul fighting mercenaries and pirates is just as, if not more, energy exhaustive as making a trip a 9 year old child could. When you add in Maul's injury on top of it the negative factors stacked against them aren't comparable.
The text acknowledges Jinn is tired and Maul never said anything about his opponent's state. Only how his injury is affecting his own performance.
2. I direct you to my this same section on my last response. Jinn managing to unbalance Maul when he was on the edge of a rising platform isn't indicative of anything.
[[I said it's more impressive for Maul than for Jinn.]]
Yes, it is. Which is why I don't understand why you brought it up.