Banite power scaling

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The beliefs which are the very basis of Bane's Order and that's exactly what that quote described, the intention behind the Banite Sith Order.

only thing cool about Darth Bane is he finally provides a solid connection between Batman and Star Wars

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The beliefs which are the very basis of Bane's Order and that's exactly what that quote described, the intention behind the Banite Sith Order.

Originally posted by ares834
People are stupid and hilariously biased. It's really that simple.

Well, seeing as Palpatine was the culmination of the Banite Sith's "political power", which made him so politically powerful that Yoda couldn't defeat him in one-on-one combat, then yeah, we can presume that the Banite Sith advanced in "political power" in that context 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Honestly reading this:

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
--Taken from Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

And interpreting it to be referring to their political or economic powers is just ****ing stupid lmao.

Again Beniboy,

This is another misinterpretation. We are agreed that this passage doesn't refer to political power, but it does not refer to power in the force either. Rather that it refers to the number of power(s) that are disposable to them. Of course, if your knowledge of force lore is increased you would know more 'powers' - hence the plural. Which is the only logical interpretation of that sentence. This should be basic comprehension - but yet again - it's essentially it's another issue of Sidious supporters wearing beer goggles, in which case I'll have to cite Leland Chee on the matter again:

"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate"

"us continuity people don't deal in absolutes."

- Leeland Chee

You can't win this argument Beni, unless you can literally find me a text stating that each member of the Banite line's "power in the dakrside / Force" increased, one after the other. Yet even then, it's still up for interpretation as LFL house policy 🙄

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, seeing as Palpatine was the culmination of the Banite Sith's "political power", which made him so politically powerful that Yoda couldn't defeat him in one-on-one combat, then yeah, we can presume that the Banite Sith advanced in "political power" in that context 👆

Bane's thoughts are what formed the basis of his Order, there is little discussion in that and that they are important for it's working is only logical nor do I think that it's reaching to look deeper into the real working and idea behind the Order. That many have not even committed one argument in favor of their 'theory' speaks volumes about how strong it actually is.

PS My favorite Banite Sith is Darth Tenebrous so if I really am biased then I wouldn't be having this discussion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, seeing as Palpatine was the culmination of the Banite Sith's "political power", which made him so politically powerful that Yoda couldn't defeat him in one-on-one combat, then yeah, we can presume that the Banite Sith advanced in "political power" in that context 👆

No one says it's only referring to political power, it can define multiple interpretations of power. However you can't deny that Bane's primary goal was to destroy the Jedi Order through the manipulation of the political world, something which Palpatine eventually succeeds in.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
No one says it's only referring to political power, it can define multiple interpretations of power. However you can't deny that Bane's primary goal was to destroy the Jedi Order through the manipulation of the political world, something which Palpatine eventually succeeds in.

I'm being sarcastic and referring to Ziggy's infamous "it refers to political power" argument.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm being sarcastic and referring to Ziggy's infamous "it refers to political power" argument.

My arguments disagree with your view on the matter, and that is simply why you don't like them. Which is the same reason you've auto-conceded on many occasions - because your arguments for Sheev rely on me accepting various rules, and trying to dispute premises according to your logic. But when I debunk the philosophy, starting with the assumptions and then move into various contradictions that may arise. You're literally impotent - hence the ducking. The assumption here is that 'power' refers to a small slice of a bigger cake. Power must mean power in the Force' because Sunrazor wants it to mean that, rather than power referring to a multitude of things - IE political/military might. For the final time:

Question asker - "Right, one question Leland: say if we were having a debate on who was the most powerful sith ever, and a random sourcebook states that Sidious is, would that make it absolute, and render the discussion over, or would is still only be a matter of opinion and still up for debate?"

Leland Chee himself - "There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate. Is the power being measured referring to his mastery over the dark side of the Force, the governmental powers he wields as Emperor , or some combination of both?"

There is no article in canon declaring Sidious is the most powerful Force wielder among the sith lords, because it goes against LFL house policy.

You might think that. Too bad nobody takes that seriously, so I (nor Zoltan, or anybody else) don't have to worry about the apparent "auto-concessions" I'm making to you.

Besides, nobody debates with flat-earthers, but is that a recognition in logical flaws? Hardly. Nobody debates with people who aren't worth their time. That you proposed "political power" in quotes that blatantly refer to Force mastery... well, you can figure out what that means for yourself, my much wittier and much more intelligent friend.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
That many have not even committed one argument in favor of their 'theory' speaks volumes about how strong it actually is.

We don't make arguments, because it's ****ing obvious. What should I debate next? That water is wet?

Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]You might think that. Too bad nobody takes that seriously, so I (nor Zoltan, or anybody else)

That is not an excuse to attempt to save face. You avoided every turn to debate when you were so convinced I was Nai on comicvine too - which btw is hilarious - causing you to shit your pants. There is no denying it Nova, you don't like entering debates you can't win and you don't like answering questions that don't have justified answers. It really is that simple. Arthur Schopenhauer once said When you state a question or an argument, and your opponent gives you no direct answer or reply, but evades it by a counter-question or an indirect answer, or some assertion which has no bearing on the matter, and, generally, tries to turn the subject, it is a sure sign that you have touched a weak spot, sometimes without knowing it. I have, as it were, reduced you to silence. And now your getting upset that I repeat these points. And Zoltan, really? the guy almost certainly has a case of autism given his tendancy to get hostile when people don't agree with his opinions - telling darthduelist to kill himself, and I don't think he was joking either.

That you proposed "political power" in quotes that blatantly refer to Force mastery... well, you can figure out what that means for yourself,

You have so far not brought up a single quote that blantanly refers to 'Force powers', making this point a moot one.

my much wittier and much more intelligent friend.

Don't forget better looking.

The damage Gravid did to the Order of the Sith Lords was eventually recovered and taken even further in its vastness. So that is a non-point.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Again Beniboy,

This is another misinterpretation. We are agreed that this passage doesn't refer to political power, but it does not refer to power in the force either. Rather that it refers to the number of power(s) that are disposable to them. Of course, if your knowledge of force lore is increased you would know more 'powers' - hence the plural. Which is the only logical interpretation of that sentence. This should be basic comprehension - but yet again - it's essentially it's another issue of Sidious supporters wearing beer goggles, in which case I'll have to cite Leland Chee on the matter again:

"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate"

"us continuity people don't deal in absolutes."

- Leeland Chee

You can't win this argument Beni, unless you can literally find me a text stating that each member of the Banite line's "power in the dakrside / Force" increased, one after the other. Yet even then, it's still up for interpretation as LFL house policy 🙄

Anyway you've got in wrong again, any one Sith Lord has access to a plurality of powers (i.e. telekinesis, telepathy, Force lightning etc.), so it's no surprise the plural would be opted for when referring to them, plural, increasing.

However, nowhere does it specifically refer to only the number of powers they knew, increasing. It uses general terms, we must therefore assume general terms, i.e. of their preexisting powers increasing, new powers they learned increasing, and yes the number of abilities they gained increasing. Overall power in general. You have no basis I'm afraid for reducing it to any one aspect.

Aside from biased and stupidity of course. 🙂

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Bane's thoughts are what formed the basis of his Order, there is little discussion in that and that they are important for it's working is only logical nor do I think that it's reaching to look deeper into the real working and idea behind the Order. That many have not even committed one argument in favor of their 'theory' speaks volumes about how strong it actually is.

PS My favorite Banite Sith is Darth Tenebrous so if I really am biased then I wouldn't be having this discussion.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
What should I debate next? That water is wet?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
What should I debate next? That water is wet?

Good debate. mmm

The word 'power' has different meanings, regardless from this quote, Bane uses the word power for combative Force power, political power, ... while Leland Chee mentioned the same thing. That's an undeniable fact, like how Bane's intention behind his Order is to destroy the Jedi by manipulating galatic events, which Sidious eventually succeeds in. The quotes that are presented in this thread describe the ultimate goal of Bane, every generation of Sith gaines power, yet we know that his ultimate goal (according to the Bane trilogy) is to destroy the Jedi through the true power of the Dark Side (manipulation, cunning, ...) so there's the conflict. Reducing Bane's entire Order to just gaining Force power seems very limited thinking and is close to ignoring Bane's true intentions. Does this mean that it's unpossible for a Banite Sith to gain more power? Not at all, I see it as entirely plausible that the combative Force power of at least a few Sith improved (most notably Plagueis and Sidious) but I regard it more as a side effect then the primary goal of the Banite Sith Order.

It's apparently "obvious" that in this case power refers to actual Force Power but where do we draw the line between something that's "obvious" and something that's worth having a debate over? It's entirely subjective, so even if someone starts a debate about something you regard as "obvious" by presenting actual feats & facts it can in the end only strengthen your theory (if it's so "obvious"😉.

I only presented facts about Bane's use of the word power and his intentions behind his Order which could very well make one doubt it's meaning yet because I go in against the generally accepted theory it means I'm biased. I responded to this thread because I actually had these kind of doubts before but in no way do I have a preferable outcome so If you can counter my arguments then please do so, I would definitely encourage it.