Banite power scaling

Originally posted by Petrus
What about this? Wouldn't this sort of contradict that every apprentice surpassed their masters?

No, given that Gravid's apprentice still beat him in one vs. one combat. You can take a step back but still take two steps forward right afterwards.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
As far as tactical ability is concerned, modern technological advancements render most, if not all of Alexander's tactical repertoire, obsolete. This is not to say that he is a crappy tactician by today's standards, but that there are additional factors by today's standards that he would not be able to overcome with his tactical aptitude alone.

We see a fine example of this concept in the Mutara Nebula battle of Star Trek II Wrath of Khan in which Khan, despite being openly acknowledged as the superior tactician, is bested by Kirk due to being unfamiliar with three dimensional naval combat. As Spock put it, Khan's pattern indicated "two dimensional thinking."

The same can't quite be said as far as ancient force wielding sith and modern force wielding sith are concerned. In their case, a great deal of knowledge had actually been lost, not gained, over time, as we see in the case of Darth Gravid. This is not to say that each generation didn't grow stronger over time, but that it's a bit difficult to quantify precisely how.

That's just getting stuck on the particulars of the analogy; Stonehenge is legendary but we obviously can outstrip it today, etc.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Arthur Schopenhauer once said When you state a question or an argument, and your opponent gives you no direct answer or reply, but evades it by a counter-question or an indirect answer, or some assertion which has no bearing on the matter, and, generally, tries to turn the subject, it is a sure sign that you have touched a weak spot, sometimes without knowing it. I have, as it were, reduced you to silence.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
No I'm referring to Ellimist's bullshit argument that if there were that many generations between Bane and Sidious Bane has to be scaled down beneath Dooku regardless of what arguments you can build around his feats.

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond, given your hilariously transparent evasion of ever engaging me in a debate, but it isn't clear to me why powerscaling downwards is less valid than scaling upwards, seeing as how Sidious has better established feats than Bane's dubious ones on a nexus, so it makes more sense to use him as the benchmark.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I suppose I should take Ziggy's silence to mean that I've struck upon a weak spot. 🙂

No you shouldn't.

On phone right now though, so you can expect something with pretty pictures and links soon. 😮‍💨

OK. But just remember, there is no shame in a concession. 🙂

Yes there is.

I won't hold it against you, I promise. 🤣

But I would hold it against myself. However, if you did truly bring light to some-point and urge in a manner I can not contest - I would concede the point.

*eventually.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Can't. My PM's don't get sent for some reason.

Sorry just saw this now. Shall we use this thread to converse?

Yeah my PM's aren't working either.

Sure. Ever read Insomnia Troc?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Loving the double standards friend "it's up for intepretation but this is the only logical intepretation"

Anyway you've got in wrong again, any one Sith Lord has access to a plurality of powers (i.e. telekinesis, telepathy, Force lightning etc.), so it's no surprise the plural would be opted for when referring to them, plural, increasing.

There is no contradiction Beniboy. Your interpretation is that the Banite line experienced some increase in their - best put - power levels, as their knowledge of Sith lore grew wider. This has lead you to believe that all their abilities had increased, such as telekinesis, augmentation and barriers. I find that to not just be illogical, but very unlikely. Some of the best telekinetic showings in the mythos are exhaulted by absolute neophytes. Those who haven’t had much knowledge of the Force outside of basic study compared to someone like Plagueis who - as far as I recall - had an entire library of holocrons and sith artifacts. Telekinesis and augmentation are very basic techniques, and what level one can use them at is dependent on their Force potential, not one’s knowledge of Sith lore. And we know that Force potential is decided at birth, dictated by the amount of midi-chlorians in one’s blood - which is why Anakin and Yoda are considered prodigies, which why Anakin can best the far more knowledgeable Dooku with his innate force potential, which is why Maul’s speed can effectively stand up to Sidious when enraged or why Starkiller can briefly hold back Sheev’s lightning.

However, nowhere does it specifically refer to only the number of powers they knew, increasing. It uses general terms, we must therefore assume general terms, of their preexisting powers increasing, new powers they learned increasing, and yes the number of abilities they gained increasing. Overall power in general. You have no basis I'm afraid for reducing it to any one aspect.

Not at all. The passage is certainly open to debate. As Leeland Chee said - it’s all up for interpretation. Which to the contrary, does not mean your autistic - and fanboyish - interpretation should be placed ahead of a logical one. As their knowledge increased, so did their power(s). Not that the powers ‘enhanced’, got ‘better’ or ‘stronger’. There is only so much knowledge one can obtain to enhance their lightning - because in the grand scheme of things, it’s a basic sith power. For example - Bane can receive Addedu’’s holocron and learn nothing new about the Force, which is why it’s more logical to assume the passage refers to the number of powers they learnt, rather than that knowledge strengthening their connection to the Force. And as we can with Sidious and Plageuis, a lot of those powers have little to do with combat. In all of his fights, we see that Sidious favours the practical abilities against other Force wielders. His uses of TK, Lightning, Augmentation are the only things we see him use mid-fight. These areas where he has no visible edge against Bane. So yes, Bane vs Sidious is very much on the cards. And I’d argue in favour for the former.

So now it is up for interpretation, I thought there was only one possible reading? Stick to a story please, I'm beginning to think you're biased. 🙂

Regardless the general gist of you argument seems to be that an increment in knowledge of the dark side could not lead to an increment in their Force abilities in general. But like, no? All knowledge of Sith techniques would feed into their knowledge and understanding of the nature of the dark side as a whole, as well as press and therefore expand the limitations of the practitioner, altogether contributing to and advancing their command of the Force in a wider sense. There being many examples of Sith Lords uncovering ancient Sith knowledge and become holistically stronger because of it, not simply learning a few new spells and tricks.

For example Bane during his apprenticeship describes how the ancient Sith knowledge would be key to unlocking his full potential:

Taken from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Bane spent several hours each day studying the ancient records. He found them fascinating. Many of the scrolls were historical records recounting ancient battles or glorifying the deeds of ancient Sith Lords. By itself the information had little practical use, but he could see each individual work for what it actually represented: a tiny piece of a much larger puzzle, a clue to a much greater understanding.

The archives supplemented what he learned from the Masters. It gave context to abstract lessons. Bane felt that, in time, the ancient knowledge would be the key to unlocking his full potential. And so his understanding of the Force slowly took shape.

Taken from Tales of the Jedi

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

So no, I'm not seeing how there is a lack of correlation between the two at all. An understanding of the nature of the dark side is fundamental to any and all of its expressions.

You can also add Krayt getting more powerful when learning DT.

Or Revan getting stronger trapped for 300 years.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't know why I'm bothering to respond, given your hilariously transparent evasion of ever engaging me in a debate, but it isn't clear to me why powerscaling downwards is less valid than scaling upwards, seeing as how Sidious has better established feats than Bane's dubious ones on a nexus, so it makes more sense to use him as the benchmark.

Originally posted by Sinious
DMB, you're not allowed to say another thing about the DBT until you face Elimist. 🙂

Originally posted by Syndicate
Sure. Ever read Insomnia Troc?

Did you get my pm?

Originally posted by Sinious
DMB, you're not allowed to say another thing about the DBT until you face Elimist. 🙂

😉