Is The Entity from SWTOR Kreia?

I'm confused why you felt the need to respond point-by-point when you only made one point relevant to me responding back to.

Originally posted by SunRazer
First of all, spirits begin their existence at the moment of their death, and Traya did not die in the pit. What happens to the corpse (which is now just an empty shell) after the physical death is irrelevant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm confused why you felt the need to respond point-by-point when you only made one point relevant to me responding back to.

Sounds like a concession to the other points. But I wanted you to answer me if Voss!Voice > DK!Voice.

Proof? That may be the case for Jedi spirits, but that doesn't necessarily make sense for Sith spirits. Or else they would then immediately attack their slayer (take Marr's or Kallig's spirit, for example).

Sith spirits suffer dramatic losses in power, so why would they attack somebody who had just slain their more powerful form?

Also, I believe most Sith spirits manifest later than the time of their death, but their spirits are relative to their physical selves as they died, not after.

Examples? Exar Kun? Marka Ragnos? Naga Sadow? They all died on nexuses as well, but they never absorbed the power of those nexuses into their being. In fact, they produced nexuses upon dying.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds like a concession to the other points.

And then the only last part is what I responded to just then. You're way too insecure.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But I wanted you to answer me if Voss!Voice > DK!Voice.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sith spirits suffer dramatic losses in power, so why would they attack somebody who had just slain their more powerful form?

Also, I believe most Sith spirits manifest later than the time of their death, but their spirits are relative to their physical selves [b]as they died, not after.

Examples? Exar Kun? Marka Ragnos? Naga Sadow? They all died on nexuses as well, but they never absorbed the power of those nexuses into their being. In fact, they produced nexuses upon dying. [/B]

Cool. I don't believe that, especially since you have no proof. This thread is clearly an opinion thread. Obviously, though, my opinion is better than yours. Anyway...

Uh, what proof do you have that they didn't? That seems like a hard claim to make. I find it very likely that, with their death, the nexus was instrumental in their transfer to the afterlife.

Once again, it provided an anchor of dark side energy for their conscience to live on. For Kreia, that nexus was a pit of near-tangible dark side energy that vastly outstrips that of Yavin IV or Korriban.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, what other points? You literally made none. You agreed she didn't want to be a spirit. You agreed Vitiate's Voice is far weaker than his normal sense.

Well, I claimed that it was likely one of TOR's continuity-ignorant retcons, which you didn't reply to. I take that you agree, then?

And then the only last part is what I responded to just then. You're way too insecure.

Tough talk coming from a child like you.

Definitely not.

Why? I mean the Voice that fought HoT.

Uh, because they're a spirit? Generally you can't fight a ghost. Luke Skywalker and Darth Nox (prior to mastering the walking technique) learned that the hard way.

Spirits tend not to be able to do things to more powerful Force users. Luke and Nox weren't as powerful as Kun + Kyp/Kallig at the time of their losses.

Cool. I don't believe that. This thread is clearly an opinion thread. Obviously, though, my opinion is better than yours. Anyway...

So far, you've been getting disproven all thread. Not much of a record to base your superiority on, eh?

Uh, what proof do you have that they didn't? That seems like a hard claim to make. I find it very likely that, with their death, the nexus was instrumental in their transfer to the afterlife.

Because Sadow lost to Barel Ovair (I know he may not have entirely possessed Eison Gynt, but w/e) and Ragnos lost to Jaden Korr? And Kun couldn't use all of his powers in life? I don't think that would happen if they were more powerful as spirits than in life.

Once again, it provided an anchor of dark side energy for their conscience to live on. For Kreia, that nexus was a pit of near-tangible dark side energy that vastly outstrips that of Yavin IV or Korriban.

Tangible energy? The Tombs of Kressh/Nadd/Sadow left behind tangible energy centuries or even millennia after their death.

Also, Ragnos died on Korriban, which had a more potent nexus at that time than during the KotOR era, and we know how powerful the nexus was then. As for Kun, he died on Yavin IV, which, three centuries later, was still "on another level entirely" to Oricon, which was "immeasurably strong in the dark side". I question whether the Malachor nexus was more powerful than either.

So, Kreia's spirit is anchored somewhere. Oh my, I wonder where it could it. It couldn't possibly be the uber nexus her body literally fell in and her spirit is directly above, could it?

Oh my, I wonder who's going to be more powerful. Kreia's physical body, who's a mediocre Sith Lord, or Kreia's spirit, who's power is directly tied to one of the most powerful nexus' in history.

Face the facts. You brought yourself into a thread that didn't need to have a debate, and now you're going to leave beaten, afraid, more insecure, and emotional than before.

The instances you cited with Ragnos and Kun don't compare to Kreia's circumstances. The depths of Malachor V is a vastly greater nexus than Korriban and the Dark Temple (which Jedi students were fine operating in).

And, to mop up your final points:

Spirits tend not to be able to do things to more powerful Force users. Luke and Nox weren't as powerful as Kun + Kyp/Kallig at the time of their losses.

I see absolutely no reason that a spirit's energy can't clash against another's energy because they are "more powerful."

The fact Krayt and Skywalker's energy bodies were able to hang with Abeloth is further proof of this - and further proof of why I'm a god.

Why? I mean the Voice that fought HoT.

Yeah. 👆

Well, I claimed that it was likely one of TOR's continuity-ignorant retcons, which you didn't reply to. I take that you agree, then?

I took that as a concession on your end for not looking at this intelligently. Was I mistaken?

Only Nova and I can have a heated two page debate on the power of Kreia's spirit.

mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

So, Kreia's spirit is anchored somewhere. Oh my, I wonder where it could it. It couldn't possibly be the uber nexus her body literally fell in and her spirit is directly above, could it?

Thanks for providing the evidence to kill off your own case. Traya's "anchored" to a nexus that's no longer existent since Malachor V canonically gets destroyed, and as your quotes state, destroying that source of power/anchor gets rid of the spirit.

So at best, the Entity is anchored somewhere else, not Malachor V. Also, your quotes state that Sith spirits rarely move beyond their anchors, and the Entity's on Corellia. And I know you're going for that quote stating that the anchor is related to their death, but it says "usually", not "always". Malachor V's destroyed, so it's impossible to be related here.

And at the end of the day, it says the anchor allows the spirit to manifest, not that it amps the spirit. I've given you plenty of examples, and not one Sith spirit was more powerful than it was in life. You have no case for why Kreia as a spirit would be stronger than she was in life.

Oh my, I wonder who's going to be more powerful. Kreia's physical body, who's a mediocre Sith Lord, or Kreia's spirit, who's power is directly tied to one of the most powerful nexus' in history.

Mediocre? She's effortlessly crushed "ultra-powerful Sith Lords" who are among the greatest of the OR era.

That you've resorted to petty lowballing proves that you're on the retreat. You're running out of actual arguments.

Face the facts. You brought yourself into a thread that didn't need to have a debate, and now you're going to leave beaten, afraid, more insecure, and emotional than before.

https://youtu.be/yZ6QQsJ0eFE?t=4

The instances you cited with Ragnos and Kun don't compare to Kreia's circumstances. The depths of Malachor V is a vastly greater nexus than Korriban and the Dark Temple (which Jedi students were fine operating in).

You saying this doesn't prove it, lol. Ragnos died on a nexus more powerful than the KotOR/KotOR II Korriban nexus, which affected Surik and her companions a hell of a lot more than on Malachor (yes, Surik grew since Korriban, but again, Ragnos' Korriban > KotOR Korriban, so it cancels out).

And, to mop up your final points:

You mean mop up your act of proving my points? 😂

Kallig was mentally enslaving the entire area around the Dark Temple, and then ragdolled Nox. He's well beyond him.

That's what I said. Thanks for agreeing with me.

I see absolutely no reason that a spirit's energy can't clash against another's energy because they are "more powerful."

They can, but they don't have to. You already cited instances where they did, lol.

The fact Krayt and Skywalker's energy bodies were able to hang with Abeloth is further proof of this - and further proof of why I'm a god.

Because their full essences and Sith spirits which are canonically weaker than their physical selves are comparable?

For a god, you're getting humiliated.

Yeah. 👆

I asked why, not yes or no, which you already answered.

I took that as a concession on your end for not looking at this intelligently. Was I mistaken?

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

On the other hand, I can comment on the fact that TOR's already butchered and retconned a number of Kreia's major aspects, so why stop there?

Thanks for providing the evidence to kill off your own case. Traya's "anchored" to a nexus that's no longer existent since Malachor V canonically gets destroyed, and as your quotes state, destroying that source of power/anchor gets rid of the spirit.

So at best, the Entity is anchored somewhere else, not Malachor V.

Take the nexus Palpatine formed above Endor, for example. 👆

Mediocre? She's effortlessly crushed "ultra-powerful Sith Lords" who are among the greatest of the OR era.

That you've resorted to petty lowballing proves that you're on the retreat. You're running out of actual arguments.

I'm surprised you're even trying to argue otherwise, especially since I believe you have that stance too.

You saying this doesn't prove it, lol. Ragnos died on a nexus more powerful than the KotOR/KotOR II Korriban nexus, which affected Surik and her companions a hell of a lot more than on Malachor (yes, Surik grew since Korriban, but again, Ragnos' Korriban > KotOR Korriban, so it cancels out).

Because their full essences and Sith spirits which are canonically weaker than their physical selves are comparable?

But the former can... and the latter can. 👆

asked why, not yes or no, which you already answered.

You've lost, Nova. Embrace defeat.

You added this, so:

And at the end of the day, it says the anchor allows the spirit to manifest, not that it amps the spirit. I've given you plenty of examples, and not one Sith spirit was more powerful than it was in life. You have no case for why Kreia as a spirit would be stronger than she was in life.

Kreia's source of power is the greatest font of nexus on Malachor V. 👆

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

The destruction of the planet wouldn't have destroyed the energies around the area. 😬

Take the nexus Palpatine formed above Endor, for example. 👆

Which wasn't anything of substance, compared to the likes of Dagobah, which was formed by some mook Dark Jedi dying. Obviously it was lessened dramatically.

Also, I'm pretty sure Palpatine's nexus dissipated not too long afterwards. It's not that big. It's been 300 years between KotOR II and TOR. The nexus would've declined immensely even if it did remain.

She's unquestionably mediocre compared to Kun, Revan, Ragnos, Sadow, etc. She even states as such.

I'm surprised you're even trying to argue otherwise, especially since I believe you have that stance too.

Saying she's mediocre compared to top guns doesn't make her mediocre in the grand scheme of things, lol. After all, Revan and Sadow etc. are mediocre compared to Sidious.

Also, she states that she's mediocre to Sadow?

The nexus of Malachor mind-****ed Kreia to the dark side. 😬

You mean according to Chronicles of the Old Republic, which got retconned by Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide so that she was tempted by forbidden knowledge/Sith hermetica into studying the dark side.

By contrast, in the actual game, Korriban's nexus evidently affected the Exile & party more than Malachor.

What? Krayt and Luke are vastly inferior to Abeloth - just as you argued inferior spirits can't take on more powerful characters.

But the former can... and the latter can. 👆

Don't you top your language classes? Please tell me you can understand what I was saying.

I was mocking the notion that Luke/Krayt beyond shadows were similar to Sith spirits who were canonically weaker than their physical selves. Also, they fought a portion of a weakened Abeloth and were still losing until she died in other places in the galaxy.

Uh, better feats?

Forcing out Sel-Makor > failing to destroy T3 🙂

Friend, there's something called circumstances. Doesn't DK!Voice/Scourge claim that he's the weakest he's been recently? If there's nothing to indicate that, I'll agree with you.

You've lost, Nova. Embrace defeat.

No, I haven't. You haven't proven anything.

It associates the spirit's "power" with the nexus. It states that if you cut it off from the nexus, it's power is gone.

Kreia's source of power is the greatest font of nexus on Malachor V.

Even though she's on Corellia, and as your same source states, Sith spirits don't stray from their anchors? Halfway across the galaxy and 300 years after the nexus was destroyed. Funny.

Ragnos was tied to a very powerful nexus, yet he lost to Jaden Korr. I'm pretty sure you and a lot of others reason that it's because Korriban's nexus sucked hard at that point/Tavion's body sucked. But I mean, those factors can't be relevant according to this discussion.

Which wasn't anything of substance, compared to the likes of Dagobah, which was formed by some mook Dark Jedi dying. Obviously it was lessened.

Saying she's mediocre compared to top guns doesn't make her mediocre in the grand scheme of things, lol. After all, Revan and Sadow etc. are mediocre compared to Sidious.

Also, she states that she's mediocre to Sadow?

The level of power Wrath is implying is vastly inconsistent with what we know Kreia to be capable of (not much).

Also, she states that she's mediocre to Sadow?

You mean according to Chronicles of the Old Republic, which got retconned by Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide so that she was tempted by forbidden knowledge/Sith hermetica into studying the dark side.

I was mocking the notion that Luke/Krayt beyond shadows were similar to Sith spirits who were canonically weaker than their physical selves. Also, they fought a portion of a weakened Abeloth and were still losing until she died in other places in the galaxy.

Also, let's refer back to your dismissal of Kun attacking Luke. You state "Spirits tend not to be able to do things to more powerful Force users," but Kun directly did stuff to Luke. The fact Durron was there to aid doesn't change the fact that Kun was still less powerful than Luke - but still managed to do things to him.

By contrast, in the actual game, Korriban's nexus evidently affected the Exile & party more than Malachor.

In KotOR II, Malachor was portrayed as a dark side abomination that corrupts all who walk on it's surface. That isn't the same for Korriban.

On Korriban, the greatest focal point of power is the Star Map. Now, if we're going to act like that's a more powerful nexus than the Trayus Core, we're done here.

Ah, so Rivi-Anu > Mace and Anakin.

Friend, there's something called circumstances.

LMFAO WHAT? How the **** are we suppose to compare the Voices then? The Voss!Voice couldn't even kill himself. He was pathetically weak.

If we're not comparing them by feat or accolades, we're just being guessing blindly. And while you can do that and be laughed at, I'm not.

Doesn't DK!Voice/Scourge claim that he's the weakest he's been recently?

Even though she's on Corellia, and as your same source states, Sith spirits don't stray from their anchors? Halfway across the galaxy and 300 years after the nexus was destroyed. Funny.

Darth Baras' compound must have a taint of the dark side in it. Hm, who would have guessed? 🙄

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I have no clue what point you're trying to make about Dagobah, but I see absolutely no indication it was lessened. Even if it was, the nexus was so ridiculously powerful it shouldn't even matter. Plus, Kreia states Baras desecrated a physical resting place for her, so her corpse must have been found in the rubble that was remained from Malachor V, further strengthening the notion of her attachment to the local area (i.e. the energy of Malachor V).

My point is that Palpatine's death should've made an incredibly powerful nexus, but it ended up being only a small one, so the destruction of the Death Star likely dramatically lessened it. Moreover, aren't dark side nexuses places where DS energy is imbued in physical places?

Look at your quote again:

They're anchored to an object or location, which, when annihilated, severs their ties to the universe. Malachor V/the Trayus Core was destroyed (you see the Trayus Core crumbling away, and it's reaffirmed by sources), which should sever her ties to the universe. So she's not anchored to Malachor.

It also states "most" DS spirits, again, not all. Kreia seems like an exception to this "anchor" stuff. The only thing she seems anchored to is Baras, lol.

In the ground scheme of things, she's still mediocre. She's not among the greats - she's not even the next level down.

Given the amount of fodder and co. that exist, she's pretty high up.

The level of power Wrath is implying is vastly inconsistent with what we know Kreia to be capable of (not much).

Funny. That's not how you take the quote about Meetra saying Mando Wars Revan >> Nihilus.

Uh, the whole ancient Sith Lords would rape me speech?

The one about lightsaber combat? Yeah, not relevant.

There's no retcon. Chronicles states she was consumed by the dark side as she entered Malachor V. The Campaign Guide states the foundation and formation of Kreia's philosophy that the Force is evil. They can stand together.

Not at all. You claimed that the nexus mindraped her, which didn't happen. She got intrigued by Sith hermetica and decided to study more of the DS lore. Nothing to do with the nexus.

Yeah, and I said that was a retarded point - and then explained why. 👆

No, you didn't. You didn't know what I saying, lol.

Also, let's refer back to your dismissal of Kun attacking Luke. You state "Spirits tend not to be able to do things to more powerful Force users," but Kun directly did stuff to Luke. The fact Durron was there to aid doesn't change the fact that Kun was still less powerful than Luke - but still managed to do things to him.

Kun + Kyp is powerful enough to affect Luke, not to mention it being attacks that Luke couldn't counter. I never denied that this could happen.

It's almost like they grew as characters. mmm

Keep up, child. I already accounted for this earlier by stating that it's cancelled out by the Korriban nexus deteriorating between Ragnos' death and KotOR.

In KotOR II, Malachor was portrayed as a dark side abomination that corrupts all who walk on it's surface. That isn't the same for Korriban.

That's what she claimed - it didn't happen to any of the Exile's comrades, just as it didn't on Korriban. Except Korriban literally blocked the Exile's companions from entering at certain points, and it mindraped the Exile a hell of a lot more than Malachor V did despite being a Wound in the Force.

On Korriban, the greatest focal point of power is the Star Map. Now, if we're going to act like that's a more powerful nexus than the Trayus Core, we're done here.

Do you have a quote?

LMFAO WHAT? How the **** are we suppose to compare the Voices then? The Voss!Voice couldn't even kill himself. He was pathetically weak.

You mean because Sel-Makor took control of him? Failing to destroy T3 on a nexus is also pathetically weak.

We can compare them as equals. There's no reasonable factor to influence the difference between the two in terms of power - other than the fact that Vitiate gets weakened again by another failed ritual prep, IIRC. Otherwise, it's just him possessing bodies. No difference, lol.

Darth Baras' compound must have a taint of the dark side in it. Hm, who would have guessed? 🙄

The same quote says they have to be familiar with the place and can't travel to places that they haven't been to before.

Can you fix the formatting?

Is it better now?

Alright. We're getting really off track here, and it seems clear neither of our positions are really going to waver. I'll still respond to all your points though - and reclarify some of mine.

The destruction of Malachor V doesn't classify as annihilation. It wasn't wiped completely. Malachor V is still there, just turned into asteroids. Apparently Kreia's body rested somewhere on the asteroids. The energy also can't be destroyed when the rocks split apart. That's basic science. Your point concerning Endor doesn't stand because the nexus was the remnants of Palpatine's physical body. His spirit and power was preserved as a spirit, so thus the nexus wasn't on an extreme scale. That's my interpretation on it, at least. In regards to Corellia, I find it silly to assume Kreia never traveled to their before. It's one of the most populous and important planets in the galaxy. But yes, my argument requires speculation. The entire debate is speculation trying to make sense of BioWare's disgrace of KotOR II. However, the area where she trapped in can easily pass as a nexus if we're being reasonable. Fine, you may disagree - I don't care enough to spend numerous pages debating it with you and neither of us getting no where. I presented the evidence on why I think this is the case, and I've also admitted the areas where a bit of brain work is needed. If you don't want to give the benefit of the doubt on those few gaps, whatever.

Your theory is simply not consistent with what we know of Kreia's power and character. And no, this is different from the instance with Revan and Nihilus because, unlike them, I have presented an actual reasoning why the difference in Kreia's power may be the case. If no reasoning was available, like in regards to Revan and Nihilus and it's pretty clear and dry, I'd agree, but that isn't the case. Also, KotOR II heavily suggests Revan's superiority to Nihius time and time again as well, so it's not even inconsistent either - it just looks strange due to a feat comparison.

In regards to proof about the Star Map, you know the quote I'm referring to, so I'm not sure why you're asking for it.

In regards to spirits not being able to affect more powerful beings than themselves, your Kun point makes no sense because it's wrong, but since you can't grasp my point, I'll refer to another example. On the False Emperor flashpoint, the protagonists confront, battle, and vanquish a Sith spirit. Is it ridiculous to assume that this random Force spirit wasn't more powerful than the Hero of Tython? If not, then your point doesn't hold. Since you want it to hold though, I assume you'll say that isn't the case.

And I find a difference because Voss Vitiate was seemingly intentionally given to Vitiate by Baras because the body had weaknesses. That isn't the case for the Emperor that the Knight fought. Also, during the Voss episode, wasn't Vitiate also orchestrating the ritual that would have consumed the galaxy and dominating the minds of the Jedi strike team? In his final fight with the Hero of Tython, his power isn't spread out as thin.

I don't see the point of continuing this debate. It's not getting anywhere and it's not relevant. You're blatantly ignoring my points - either out of ignorance or bias. Unless you have something meaningful to add, I'll have to pull the "agree to disagree" card, since I don't see myself continuing this at 1:30 am, and I don't see myself continuing this tomorrow where I can assume our interest in this topic would be completely gone.

Like Sasukedc said:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's certainly not an implausible idea.

And I'll leave it at that. 👆

I'll respond later. I'm not ignoring anything.

Typical Nova; always wanting the last laugh. 😂

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Typical Nova; always wanting the last laugh. 😂

Not at all. I've let plenty of people have the last word just because it doesn't mean anything. I'm interested in presenting my case, that's all.

Do you get profits from belittling everyone?

You just described over half the forum with that last statement.

Nah, some do it more than others. DC's messing with me, though.