Originally posted by SunRazer
Ood's fight with Exar doesn't give us anything to scale off, lol. They clashed sabers like once before Ood got blindsided.
I'm referring to Ood then turning into a tree, afterwards, and placing a barrier that Kun couldn't break.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You don't think maybe Ood was weakened by y'know, turning into a tree, getting wrecked by a supernova and spending 4000 years in a coma?Regardless, Sedriss used the energy of the charged atomsphere and he did so as a suicidal last act.
Millennia to heal is probably enough, tbh. Not to mention he spent those millennia connected to a Force nexus planet.
And so what if he used the atmosphere? He merely drew power from it, as Ood did the ground, to then counter balance him. Remove the two respective nexuses and the result is the same -- Sedriss annihilates that which stops Kun dead in his tracks.
And it wasn't suicide; Bnar simply managed to fight back.
Originally posted by MythLord
Millennia to heal is probably enough, tbh. Not to mention he spent those millennia connected to a Force nexus planet.And so what if he used the atmosphere? He merely drew power from it, as Ood did the ground, to then counter balance him. Remove the two respective nexuses and the result is the same -- Sedriss annihilates that which stops Kun dead in his tracks.
And it wasn't suicide; Bnar simply managed to fight back.
He wasn't healing, he was in a coma/asleep. If he were healed he'd just turn back into a humanoid form and carry on as a Jedi.
No, he "called down energy from the planets charged atmosphere" into a blast on lightning. It wasn't a nexus, he used the ionised atmosphere to fuel a massively powerful attack. The part where his power comes into play was merely harnessing and directing that energy. Which annihilates himself as well as Bnar when the two attacks meet.
The text says he knows it's his final battle, so he "hurls his mind deep into the dark side". He was clearly going for massive final attack.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He wasn't healing, he was in a coma/asleep. If he were healed he'd just turn back into a humanoid form and carry on as a Jedi.
He was still drawing on the energies from the planet, and for millennia, while asleep. Hence why it says he uses powers that were "Using powers that lay dormant in him for thousands of years" as he "draws power on the living energy of the planet through his roots".
He also seems to be in a permanent state of a tree, otherwise he would've turned into a Jedi and fought Sedriss 1v1, head on, without the need to sacrifice himself. This is further backed up by TCSWE, where it notes that Ood Bnar "evolved" into said tree, meaning it's a new state of being.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he "called down energy from the planets charged atmosphere" into a blast on lightning. It wasn't a nexus, he used the ionised atmosphere to fuel a massively powerful attack. The part where his power comes into play was merely harnessing and directing that energy. Which annihilates himself as well as Bnar when the two attacks meet.
Did it ever occur to you Sedriss charged the atmosphere himself? Even so, using and directing a blast powerful enough to destroy something Exar couldn't would still make him comparable to Kun. I mean, Kun is more knowledgable than Sedriss, so I assume he knew the same technique of calling down lightning, so why couldn't be do it?
This isn't the point, either. The point is, Luke's Force Shield is considerably greater than Ood's which withstood a supernnova and is something Kun couldn't break through(i.e. DE Luke is Exar Kun).
Originally posted by Nephthys
The text says he knows it's his final battle, so he "hurls his mind deep into the dark side". He was clearly going for massive final attack.
It was his final battle because he was entangled within Ood's roots, and couldn't break free. Even if he overpowers Bnar, he'd still get killed by his own powerful blast.
Kun had the luxury of being capable of attacking from a distance, yet didn't because he couldn't.
Originally posted by MythLord
He was still drawing on the energies from the planet, and for millennia, while asleep. Hence why it says he uses powers that were "Using powers that lay dormant in him for thousands of years" as he "draws power on the living energy of the planet through his roots".He also seems to be in a permanent state of a tree, otherwise he would've turned into a Jedi and fought Sedriss 1v1, head on, without the need to sacrifice himself. This is further backed up by TCSWE, where it notes that Ood Bnar "evolved" into said tree, meaning it's a new state of being.
No, he wasn't. The fact that he does so when he was conscious doesn't mean that he did so when he wasn't. You even posted the quote saying his power was dormant for thousands of years. It's also highly unlikely he'd wake up and immediately be 100%, especially without having truly fought in that form before.
Or he couldn't because he was enfeebled and damaged.
Originally posted by MythLord
Did it ever occur to you Sedriss charged the atmosphere himself? Even so, using and directing a blast powerful enough to destroy something Exar couldn't would still make him comparable to Kun. I mean, Kun is more knowledgable than Sedriss, so I assume he knew the same technique of calling down lightning, so why couldn't be do it?This isn't the point, either. The point is, Luke's Force Shield is considerably greater than Ood's which withstood a supernnova and is something Kun couldn't break through(i.e. DE Luke is Exar Kun).
He didn't. If you think he did, prove it. The atmosphere was charged due to the radiation from the supernova. And no, that isn't true. Merely directing energy isn't that impressive. It's not even remotely close to Kun's level, where he uses his own actual power. If Sedriss needed to use the power of the atmosphere, his own was clearly inadequate.
It isn't. Luke wasn't the focal point of the attack. He was clear of everything but the very edges. It's a meaningless feat that proves nothing and gives him no great credit.
Originally posted by MythLord
It was his final battle because he was entangled within Ood's roots, and couldn't break free. Even if he overpowers Bnar, he'd still get killed by his own powerful blast.Kun had the luxury of being capable of attacking from a distance, yet didn't because he couldn't.
So he couldn't overpower Bnar then? Interesting argument you have there. The text says he realises it's his final battle and then as a response he conjures his own attack. Not that he'd kill himself and therefore knew it.
Kun had to leave because of the supernova. That he couldn't waste time breaking through Bnar's barrier proves nothing. Kun is confirmed to be far more powerful than any Jedi or the era, full stop.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he wasn't. The fact that he does so when he was conscious doesn't mean that he did so when he wasn't. You even posted the quote saying his power was dormant for thousands of years. It's also highly unlikely he'd wake up and immediately be 100%, especially without having truly fought in that form before.
The fact that his power was dormant means nothing. Karness Muur was dormant for seven millennia, an undoubtably longer time, and still managed against Krayt just fine, despite several disadvantages.
There really is nothing to suggest he's not as powerful as he was back in the day, just because he was in stasis for that time, rooting himself into Ossuss' very core, and because this is the first time he fought in said form.
The form is meant to be his "evolved" form, so he's obviously going to be more powerful with it, and not hindered by it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Or he couldn't because he was enfeebled and damaged.
Not at all. He "evolved", i.e. he surpassed his old limitations. He's more powerful in this state than in his humanoid one.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't. If you think he did, prove it. The atmosphere was charged due to the radiation from the supernova. And no, that isn't true. Merely directing energy isn't that impressive. It's not even remotely close to Kun's level, where he uses his own actual power. If Sedriss needed to use the power of the atmosphere, his own was clearly inadequate.
The radiation would've subsided over the course of millennia, so Sedriss would've have much to draw from, whereas Ood was drawing from the very core of the planet, whereas Sedriss was drawing and manipulating the charged energy of the atmosphere.
And Sedriss just wasn't directing the power, either. He's clearly adding his own. Bnar already tanked a supernnova, and this is just a subdued bit of radiation from it that Sedriss is drawing from. Logically, it'd be a footnote to Bnar, unless of course Sedriss is ramping the power up.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't. Luke wasn't the focal point of the attack. He was clear of everything but the very edges. It's a meaningless feat that proves nothing and gives him no great credit.
Luke was a meter away from the attack itself, and Jem was literally being held onto by Sedriss during the struggle, and only let go immediately after the explosion.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So he couldn't overpower Bnar then? Interesting argument you have there. The text says he realises it's his final battle and then as a response he conjures his own attack. Not that he'd kill himself and therefore knew it.
And at the end of the day, what does this prove? Sedriss, as can be seen in the comic, targets Ood himself. Precog let him see if he'd likely die, so he intended to kill Bnar first.
That really means little in the way of discreditting the fact that he annihilated Bnar when Kun couldn't.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kun had to leave because of the supernova. That he couldn't waste time breaking through Bnar's barrier proves nothing. Kun is confirmed to be far more powerful than any Jedi or the era, full stop.
But if he is "far more powerful", he'd have an easy time breaking through his barrier. And even if he's above Sedriss by a vast amount, he would've murked Ood instantaneously since Sedriss and Ood annihilated each other in the span of seconds.
Kun clearly had several seconds to spare. In fact, he had more, seeing as how he had to sit back and witness his Massassi fight Sylvar. If he was in a hurry, he'd one-shot her as he did in Sith War 3.
To further drive this point home, the supernnova was errected hours after the struggle between Bnar and Kun on Ossuss. So clearly Exar had more than enough time to go back to Ood, overwhelm him, and then move on with his life. But he didn't, because he couldn't. Sedriss could. He sacrificed himself at the end of it, but at least he achieved something Kun couldn't.
I have come here to give Myth my concession. Good game sir. I will now be waving the banner of Sedriss for saber and Force power. Well not really, but I had never seen that comparison up until now and it does prove that Kun can't just walk through everyone as I once thought, and that he is more on the level with Vader and Co.
However there is a mistake with Jacen's cannon deflection argument that must be adressed. The fire he deflected didn't chew up starfighters, those were different guns entirely. The same goes for Jaina and Lowbacca being disarmed.
Another thing to note, is that if Bnar's strength in that form is primarily drawn from the planets life energy, than he would logically be a lot weaker in
Dark Empire than in Tales of the Jedi. Given that during Kun's time the planet's surface was covered in water and an abundance of flora and fauna - life energy - and in 10ABY it was basically desolate until the Galatic alliance was formed 30 years later. So Kun's certainly not out of the game, and just because he couldn't get past the defences, and really, of a guy who had survived planetary devastation, I won't hold it as a black mark against him.
Nice find Myth, seems pretty conclusive. Though I'd also add that Luke is noted to be weakened in these contexts after a "fierce struggle" against "nearly impossible odds":
There is also the fact that it wasn't just Sedriss' power but Bnar's power as well that caused the explosion (which is visually a lot more potent) the latter being enough to knock Kun on his ass and leave him struggling to get up:
http://i.imgur.com/hhXMbn0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WHeJlOw.jpg
So an explosion of this magnitude could have well KO'ed him or something. Whereas Luke is not only no worse for wear, but leaves a Force adept he protected unscathed as well:
http://i.imgur.com/aXwN2ZA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/D6YjxtO.jpg
i.e. he absorbed the blast entirely. So even if we were to assume that Bnar's powers and the power of the planet had declined over the years, Luke should still be at least as powerful if not more powerful than Kun by this comparison. The fact that he one-shotted Sedriss in a weakened state, who succeeded where Kun failed, is the icing on the cake. 🙂
