Where to rank Kit Fisto and/or Shaak Ti?

Originally posted by ILS
Fisto's style is pretty context-dependent, it'll cause havoc for Grievous, his Magnaguards and in general anyone who responds poorly to high speed, randomised assaults. Meanwhile a Makashi practitioner like Ventress is going to have an edge over Fisto (though apparently she studied his style before they fought?). Other than that, Fisto's brand of Shii-Cho has no noted inherent weaknesses to other forms or any glaring issues we can interpret from the material. "It wasn't designed for dueling" clearly isn't an excuse because Fisto manages just fine using it as a dueling form.

I'm sceptical if Ti can actually make use of Makashi to undermine Kit, given the disparity in their accomplishments. Slapping a not-fully-charged TCW Grievous around with visible ease versus getting destroyed by OCW Grievous perhaps isn't the fairest comparison to make, but it's near enough the only one we have. Other than that, Fisto was chosen over Ti for the B-team and Ti is regarded as lower than Cin Drallig at the time of RotS by a couple of sourcebooks. I'd say by RotS Fisto is certainly beyond RotS Ti.

Whether she improved enough by TFU to surpass him, I'm not totally sure, and it's also a case of determining what version of TFU's Felucia battle you rely on. The Graphic Novel outright suggests that Felucia is a Dark-sided environment and Ti is a lone beacon of the Light Side. The novel suggests that Ti's Light Side practice over the years has "stifled" the Dark Side's ability to manifest in the area, which weakened Marek. And obviously the duels are visibly different from source to source.

You're actually incorrect in saying Shii-Cho has no inherent weaknesses to other forms. As a dueling form it is simply outclassed. Jedi vs Sith; An Essential Guide to the Force puts it best by saying, quite bluntly:

"Because the ancient Jedi did not have Lightsaber-wielding enemies, Form I does not address Lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat."

And yes you're right, Fisto duels well with it. But he does that because he is an incredibly fast Jedi. Shii-Cho is characterized by sweeping motions that leave one's defense wide open. It is why no duelist would ever favor Shii-Cho. Kit however is astoundingly fast, so can make up those weak-spots in his defenses far quicker than an enemy could exploit them.... unless his enemy is equally or nigh-equally his speed.

Moreover, Shii-Cho's only dueling application is noted as being against numerous blade wielders, or opponents wielding multiple blades. So one would expect a fit and able Kit Fisto to perform better against a weakened and damaged Grievous, than a tired Shaak Ti whose entire arsenal of abilities relies on not being tired would while facing a fresh Grievous. That's pretty ****ing obvious.

That Cin quote has been thoroughly debunked numerous times, by the way.

I agree that the TFU sources are markedly different, though one could suggest they're both equally valid interpretations of the fight, and how the fight could play out. No matter how you look at it, all three sources have Shaak Ti dominating the fight, overextending slightly and falling because of it. Whether it's to a fortunate Force Push and hate-filled Lightning burst, or a desperate telekinetic block.

Originally posted by MythLord
I have the 2011 one, and it says the same thing.

The Star Wars Character Encyclopedia?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511SkrkMNCL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

That the cover?

Idk. Mace wouldn't have picked Fisto if he sucks in an actual duel. He was also superior to AotC Kenobi as a duelist.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The Star Wars Character Encyclopedia?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511SkrkMNCL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

That the cover?

Yup. I don't recall him being the best duelist, I only recall it says even someone as esteemed as Drallig can't beat Anakin, or something along those lines.

Also Q, where is everyone getting these Prima game guides as of late? I look, yet can't find any reliable place.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yup. I don't recall him being the best duelist, I only recall it says even someone as esteemed as Drallig can't beat Anakin, or something along those lines.

So you don't have the book on hand to actually check?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So you don't have the book on hand to actually check?

I actually do have a physical copy, I just have no idea where it is.

Originally posted by ILS
Now I could be wrong, but was Ti put in defence of the temple before Order 66 was happening, or after? I don't see why a defence would be rallied before Order 66, because sans that, the only invasion threat is Sidious himself and droids... and if the droids had a snowballs chance in hell of invading the Temple successfully I'm sure they'd have done it by now.

But more to the point, if Ti is a superior combatant to Kolar, Tiin or Fisto, why didn't Mace bring her instead when confronting the most powerful Sith of the age? Why was she left behind at the temple with Drallig while, by her own admission, "the best" were away to capture or kill Sidious?

Just to pipe in here, because why not...

Ti was put in defence of the temple before Order 66 happened, she was left behind in case Mace and his crew failed in their mission to take Palpatine.

But that's kind of the point. She was the back up. She was "Plan B". Theoretically, if Mace wanted the best team to take down Palpatine, he needed her as well as the other three. Hell, he could have taken Drallig too. He left both of them behind however, to defend the temple in case they failed. That's effectively Mace saying "Either he'll kill us all with ease, or we'll wipe him out no problem", he obviously didn't think it'd be close either way or he would have taken more Jedi.

So for his backup plan, who better to leave defending the temple than the most celebrated War General of the Republic bar Anakin/Obi-Wan, and the instructor who knew the Temple better than anyone?

Another avenue of thinking is that Mace simply left her behind for the same reason he left Anakin. He knew the B-Team, they'd follow him unquestionably. Both Shaak Ti and Anakin however were publicly viewed as incredibly close to the Chancellor. In the waning days of the war, she was his bodyguard and a personal friend to the Chancellor, an individual he trusted dearly. Windu wanted Palpatine dead if need be, and he may have simply left her and Anakin (who is unquestionably > the B Team) behind because they might not see it through.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Idk. Mace wouldn't have picked Fisto if he sucks in an actual duel. He was also superior to AotC Kenobi as a duelist.

I'm not saying he sucks in an actual duel, merely that he overwhelmingly relies on speed to compensate for the flaws in his form. Given her own speed feats, he won't be significantly outpacing her, and both of her forms are aggressive and designed to penetrate weak spots in a defence.

Originally posted by MythLord
I actually do have a physical copy, I just have no idea where it is.

Hmm...alright, well then I'll remain on the lookout.

Found it! I actually does say Cin is the Temples Finest swordsman. Sad part is, though, he's the Temple's finest swordsman by the middle of the raid on the Temple, at which point Shaak's either dead(like it was originally intended) or fled.

Pretty sure it refers to Cin in the context of all of Operation Knightfall, not the very moment that Vader struck him down.

During Vader's raid, Shaak escaped Vader's raid since she was his first target(or meant to be, in the RotS novel). After her death/escape, did the attack on the Temple actually fully commence, IIRC.

Originally posted by MythLord
Found it! I actually does say Cin is the Temples Finest swordsman. Sad part is, though, he's the Temple's finest swordsman by the middle of the raid on the Temple, at which point Shaak's either dead(like it was originally intended) or fled.

But it's noted that Ti put up a defense against the Clones and then started evacs according to TFU and then fled. So I'm sure it's also covering that too.

Even still, so there's that quote from that and the Visual dictionary now.

Yeah, that actually is noted in the TFU Databank. But it's also noted she survived and escaped the massacre, and Anakin went to her as the primary target, prior to the raid happening. What I speculate happened is, as many Jedi believed, they fought but he didn't kill Shaak, she survived and alarmed the rest of the Jedi Temple defense force.

Then she escaped as the raid began.

The Visual Dictionary is still under debate, tbh.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, that actually is noted in the TFU Databank. But it's also noted she survived and escaped the massacre, and Anakin went to her as the primary target, prior to the raid happening. What I speculate happened is, as many Jedi believed, they fought but he didn't kill Shaak, she survived and alarmed the rest of the Jedi Temple defense force.

Then she escaped as the raid began.

The Visual Dictionary is still under debate, tbh.

But the raid already started by the time of Ti rallying Jedi to defense of the Temple as the Clones attacked.

Why would she flee the Temple before the raid began?

But ah can you post the Encyclopedia quote? Cause I can't find the book.

She rallied the Jedi defenses upon realizing what Anakin had planned. And here's the quote:

Taken from: Star Wars Character Encyclopedia
Despite being the Temple's finest swordsmaster at the time of Darth Vader's raid on the Jedi Temple, even the esteemed Cin Drallig is unable to defeat the raging Sith Lord in combat.

However, now that I think about it, Cin might be a better swordsmaster than Ti, but is he a better warrior? His technical skill is certainly superior, but his combative skill may not be, in a similar vein to how Kas'im is superior as a technical duelist to Bane, yet Bane is the better warrior, or how the GI is a better technical duelist than Kanan, yet Kanan's the better warrior.

mmm

He's the Battlemaster, so he's bound to be the best swordsman, the most masterful duelist.

Originally posted by MythLord
She rallied the Jedi defenses upon realizing what Anakin had planned. And here's the quote:

However, now that I think about it, Cin might be a better swordsmaster than Ti, but is he a better warrior? His technical skill is certainly superior, but his combative skill may not be, in a similar vein to how Kas'im is superior as a technical duelist to Bane, yet Bane is the better warrior, or how the GI is a better technical duelist than Kanan, yet Kanan's the better warrior.

mmm

Right and it's noted according to TFU Databank, she fought with her Jedi to repel the Clone attack, so it's clear she was in the Temple during the raid. She then did evacs when realizing the Temple was lost and fled.

She quickly rallied other Jedi and fought bravely to repel the attack. But it was soon obvious that the Temple would be lost. After ensuring several Padawans and their Masters escaped. Shaak Ti too reluctantly fled.

- TFU Databank.

Well if we go by accolades from Dooku, he notes that Grevious wouldn't have a chance against Cin as of the Hypori battle. Among other quotes about Cin and his lightsaber combat, who trained him(Yoda) etc.

Of course granted, Ti wasn't in full condition as of Hypori, yet neither was Mundi and he did fairly well against Grevious there.

But anyway, I'd probably give a slight edge to Cin when taking into all that account.

If nothing else the disparity between the two isn't that large.

Dooku was scolding Grievous for using "power moves" and he doesn't say Grievous doesn't have a chance, just asks if he wishes for Dooku to demonstrate what Drallig would do to him. He then lists Mace and Kenobi, both of whom had actual problems with Grievous and didn't have a clear cut victory, and both of whom are above Cin.

So the accolade shouldn't be taken at face-value, especially when there's a supposed LoE reprint stating the same only with Ti replacing Cin.

Mundi got dispatched faster than Ti did, though. Then Ki-Adi got back up later, and fought Grievous for several seconds. But this can be more attributed to endurance, rather than skill.

And given Shaak at least survived an implied engagement with Skywalker, and her greater aptitude with the Force, I'd say she'd beat Drallig unquestionably.