Originally posted by SunRazerDo you have sources for this? The earliest sources on Maul indicate him to be a legitimate Sith Lord/apprentice.
Yeah, in Legends, it seems like Maul was initially envisioned as just a tool for Sidious, which changed with newer sources implying that Sheev was considering him as a true apprentice. Canon builds off that and is a lot more favorable towards Maul.
Off the top of my head, there's Sidious stating that "While I will choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor" in BoS. He also had a pretty scathing review of Maul and how much of a puppet he was in JvS, IIRC. Or was it something else?
There's more from early sources. I'll have to find them.
Originally posted by SunRazerI assume you have examples of them being replicated then. I highly doubt your generic Sith adept could dull the Force powers of Qui-Gon Jinn. mmm
Half of those quotes are the Consume Essence and generic Sith powers, it seems. The "Jedi arts" refers to dulling.
The Palpatine being surprised at Maul's survival is kind of weird with new quotes suggesting that Palpatine would be able to replicate that.In Canon or Legends?
He's obviously not "mediocre", but he's not particularly amazing with respects to either demonstrated Force feats, provided Force accolades, or shown Force knowledge. Is there anything that provides exposition on what he studied under Sidious/what dark side knowledge he had access to? We'll mostly have to use inference for this, which I don't like (but I can make do with it if necessary).I'd say he's particular impressive as Sith Warrior tbh, beyond his exceptional ability in TK, TP etc. he's evidently mastered a lot of techniques designed to make him more exceptional and effective in combat. The only areas he's lacking in are Sith lightning and sorcery. But many of the most advanced Sith e.g. Bane, Tenebrous, Plagueis, never even used the latter.
But of course we should be ever aware that Maul was only around 20 when his training was cut short.
I'm aware of the "far more knowledgeable than Mighella" stuff but that's hardly special.I would disagree, the Nightsisters are highly advanced in the Force, but evidently Maul is just a cut above that. Especially within the contexts of negating her Force lightning its quite impressive.
Originally posted by SunRazerDo you mean Book of Sith? That's not really a new source, more following on from a slew of contradictions on Palpatine's part tbh.
Off the top of my head, there's Sidious stating that "While I will choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor" in BoS. He also had a pretty scathing review of Maul and how much of a puppet he was in JvS, IIRC. Or was it something else?There's more from early sources. I'll have to find them.
1. Sorry, but Consume Essence is used by basically every Sith. Relishing in negative emotions is part of Sith identity.
As for Cloud Mind, that's quite good, indeed. Though it comes from those junior novel sources that have some crazy things like Dooku sustaining himself indefinitely with the dark side (and Anakin not being able to outlast him) and things of that nature.
2. Canon. It's a new website quote that claims that "Like his master, Maul is resilient and has the uncanny ability to cheat death".
Anyways, both Sion and Maw have done this or better, and they're regarded to be among the weakest of characters used on the battles board.
3. Obviously exceptional by the norm, but that's not what we judge people by here. We're comparing him to elite Sith, of course. Nobody disputes that he's far above some mook unnamed Sith warrior from TOR.
4. Being far more knowledgeable than Nightsisters is not that amazing when you compare it to all of the high-tier Sith Lords in history.
5. Yeah, as I said, in Legends, it's quite conflicting. BoS is one of the more recent sources, though. DMB & WollfMyth have posted a bunch of those quotes on CV at some point. We'll have to find them.
Originally posted by SunRazerIn general yeah, but I can't think of many if any examples of it being applied effectively in combat, certainly not the weaken your opponent, apart from Lord Scourge, for whom it was regarded as exceptional.
Sorry, but Consume Essence is used by basically every Sith. Relishing in negative emotions is part of Sith identity.
As for Cloud Mind, that's quite good, indeed. Though it comes from those junior novel sources that have some crazy things like Dooku sustaining himself indefinitely with the dark side (and Anakin not being able to outlast him) and things of that nature.There are two sources that attest to that feat though. And of course, that example is contradicted by the RotS novelisation and other sources, not that it can't be interpreted reasonably.
Canon. It's a new website quote that claims that "Like his master, Maul is resilient and has the uncanny ability to cheat death".OK but is it referring to both clauses? Sidious has never cheated death in Canon, and instead its made out to be a live long and ultimately unachieved pursuit.
Anyways, both Sion and Maw have done this or better, and they're regarded to be among the weakest of characters used on the battles board.A fair point but that's Legends, in Canon is made out to be a lot more impressive, given that it astounded even Sidious. So I find that comparison questionable.
Obviously exceptional by the norm, but that's not what we judge people by here. We're comparing him to elite Sith, of course. Nobody disputes that he's far above some mook unnamed Sith warrior from TOR.As I say, he's more advanced than the Wrath.
Being far more knowledgeable than Nightsisters is not that amazing when you compare it to all of the high-tier Sith Lords in history.In terms of power and skill yeah, knowledge of the dark side not so much.
Yeah, as I said, in Legends, it's quite conflicting. BoS is one of the more recent sources, though. DMB & WollfMyth have posted a bunch of those quotes on CV at some point. We'll have to find them.The quote from The Book of Sith is interesting, as he describes Maul as a Sith Warrior never being able to expand "beyond their limited set of tasks", and yet he was essentially proven wrong in TCW... perhaps he's simply being disparaging to save face.
However my point more is that there as been a trend from the beginning for Maul being a legitimate Sith Lord, rather than an expendable tool, with the Dark Side Sourcebook and Lucas' AotC commentary indicating as much.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Off the top of my head, there's Sidious stating that "While I will choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor" in BoS. He also had a pretty scathing review of Maul and how much of a puppet he was in JvS, IIRC. Or was it something else?There's more from early sources. I'll have to find them.
I believe there's a quote where Sidious is speaking to Vader saying Dooku was a stepping stone for Anakin while Maul was a "true loss."
Legends was a mixed bag with contradictory statements everywhere, so you could argue over that all day.
Canon's view however is clear and makes a lot more sense IMO.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
"One of the most highly trained sith in history" He should be around Mace then, but no. All that training, a lifetime, to be at Kenobi level...
Mace Windu is one of the greatest Jedi Masters of all time. So no doesn't necessarily make him Mace level, especially given Maul left the Sith Order way too early, and wasted 10+ years in a junkyard, unlike Mace.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul was never "just an assassin" not in Canon or Legends. Canon just expanded on him cerebrally.He was described as one of the most highly trained Sith in history, so we've no reason to believe his training was basic. And though his primary role was that of a Jedi Killer (although TCW significantly expanded on that job description) that doesn't at all preclude him having access to more advanced Force abilities, many of which are combat applicable. Especially when he was considered by Palpatine as a legitimate apprentice and a true Sith Lord.In fact he shows a lot of advanced abilities in his fight against Jinn and Kenobi, such as concealing his presence in the Force, dulling their own connection to the Force and feeding off Kenobi's rage:Now I don't know about the quote you're referring to, but he is stated to have been instructed by Sidious in Sith lore (and the Jedi arts)😮f which the Banite Sith had stockpiled over the course of 1,000 years.
He's also described as having "far superior" knowledge of the dark side than Mighella, despite her being a master of Force lightning and one of the most powerful of the Dathomirian witches:In fact I think its pretty telling that it's the point at which Maul tanks' Mighella's lightning that she realises this:Indicating that he wasn't just powering through it, but actually using his knowledge and mastery over the dark side to negate/dispel it.
And of course we have one of his most impressive showings, namely using some manner of Force technique to survive bisection. Which Kenobi attributes to both his power in the Force and knowledge over the dark side:Which though conjecture on Kenobi's part does carry with it authorial intent, it being a feat that Darth Sidious himself did not think possible, the realisation that it was leading him to rescue Vader😖o yeah, despite not being capable of shooting lightning out of his hands (which he could nonetheless seemingly dispel) and casting spells, he's still highly advanced as a Sith warrior. More advanced than say, the Emperor's Wrath - who is anything but a "mediocre Sith Lord". And definitely more advanced than Ventress, lol.
Maul had the potential to be an even bigger/more iconic villain than Vader, too bad Lucas had to kill him and introduce this bullshit prophecy and magic Skywalker bloodline.
Anyway, this "Maul is just a disposable tool" business was never a part of Lucas' vision and never had any basis in the higher canon or in the early 2000s EU. It's just bullshit that some hacks dreamed up years later based on Dooku's musing of Maul being "an animal" and a "skilled beast, but a beast nonetheless".
In the PT trilogy Sidious was completely dedicated to the Sith cause and fully intended to be surpassed by his apprentice("Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"😉. Maul was originally supposed to be his successor, and all of that entails.
In the TPM novelization's ending Sidious is seething with anger at Maul's death. He thinks that fate itself conspired to rob him of Maul and swears vengeance on the Jedi. The point is, even with the 20000 midichlorian wonder now in play, Maul's death is still considered a huge loss.
Coincidentally, the better writers of the EU(i.e: James Luceno) always understood this. In the Plagueis novel, Plagueis himself thinks that Sidious has a "filial bond" with Maul. That's because way before Anakin showed up, Maul was the one Sidious picked to be his successor. That means that:
a)Maul had the innate potential to reach Yoda/Sidious levels and surpass them
b)Sidious poured all of his heart and soul into training Maul, since Maul was going to be his legacy
Originally posted by Beniboybling
As I say, he's more advanced than the Wrath.
In terms of what? I don't recall much in the way of esoteric combat techniques from Maul while the Wrath has been credited with telepathy, beast control, force cloak, force drain, force stasis and force terror. The Wraths command of the dark side has been stated to be legendary.
Originally posted by NephthysOut of interest where has the Wrath been credited with stasis or drain?
In terms of what? I don't recall much in the way of esoteric combat techniques from Maul while the Wrath has been credited with telepathy, beast control, force cloak, force drain, force stasis and force terror. The Wraths command of the dark side has been stated to be legendary.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Out of interest where has the Wrath been credited with stasis or drain?
Both from the Holonet.
"Though the lightsaber is the Warrior’s primary method of attack, he also uses his dark command of the Force to paralyze, terrify, and kill."
"Protecting their allies and punishing their adversaries, they charge into the thick of any fray, and take the brunt of the assault and are even able to drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve "