Why is Maul such a mediocre force user?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't know friend, you seem suddenly less convinced of the Wrath's superiority. Figures I guess.

Right, he fed off Kenobi's rage, empowering homself in the process, I fail to see how that is different from the Wrath's ability to "drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve" other than whatever false contexts you might try to construct.

And what Jedi? Exactly?

So Fohargh > Jinn now, I see. mmm

But nah, I'm more impressed by negating lightning through innate abilities than with a the aid of a conductor.

I'm still unsure how exactly you think you're tripping me up here. I'm allowed to hold a position and still possess enough flexibility to argue above it at times if the facts support it. Its not as if I didn't include "if not better" in my statement.

Because..... thats entirely different? 😕 Draining the energy of enemies is totally different from feeding on their anger. Thats obviously a different ability, not even nearly similar.

No one in particular, they just mind**** a Jedi in combat. Go check it out in Ants RT.

yes that is exactly what I said good jorb. Honestly though, that Kenobi was so freaked by such a basic ability doesn't say much good about him. Maybe PT Jedi just suck at fighting compared with the lofty heights of the BoD era Sith.

Pfft, Maul tanking some nobody Nightsisters lightning isn't nearly as good as containing and tossing back Darth Baras' lightning. Does Maul even use the Force there, lol. Come on man, at least start trying.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I believe there's a quote where Sidious is speaking to Vader saying Dooku was a stepping stone for Anakin while Maul was a "true loss."

Canon. Not Legends.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In general yeah, but I can't think of many if any examples of it being applied effectively in combat, certainly not the weaken your opponent, apart from Lord Scourge, for whom it was regarded as exceptional.

He didn't weaken anyone. He remained fresh and strong as the Jedi tired, which Dooku also did in the AotC junior novel, Vader did in the ESB junior novel (presumably), and so on. Consume Essence is a basic Sith power.

There are two sources that attest to that feat though. And of course, that example is contradicted by the RotS novelisation and other sources, not that it can't be interpreted reasonably.

Only the RotS novel actually contradicts it.

OK but is it referring to both clauses? Sidious has never cheated death in Canon, and instead its made out to be a live long and ultimately unachieved pursuit.

Yes, and that Sidious never actually cheated death doesn't mean he lacks the ability to do so.

A fair point but that's Legends, in Canon is made out to be a lot more impressive, given that it astounded even Sidious.

I'm discussing Legends here. I've already said that Canon places Maul in higher esteem.

As I say, he's more advanced than the Wrath.

Maybe. We don't know how much of the dark side the Wrath has explored in specific detail, either. Based on telekinesis showings, that's not all that likely, though.

In terms of power and skill yeah, knowledge of the dark side not so much.The quote from The Book of Sith is interesting, as he describes Maul as a Sith Warrior never being able to expand "beyond their limited set of tasks", and yet he was essentially proven wrong in TCW... perhaps he's simply being disparaging to save face.

Why would he try to save face in the equivalent of private memoirs?

However my point more is that there as been a trend from the beginning for Maul being a legitimate Sith Lord, rather than an expendable tool, with the Dark Side Sourcebook and Lucas' AotC commentary indicating as much.

It goes both ways in Legends, as I've said.

On a side note, Maul's potential means the absolute square root of jack shit, lol. People need to stop bringing it up. You can debate that his potential seemed to be greater than Talzin's or Sidious' - he was still an afterthought in their fight on Dathomir. It's knowledge and mastery that defines your actual, effective power, not raw power, or Anakin would slaughterhouse the mythos. Heck, Asajj Ventress, Obi-Wan etc. could be argued to have more potential than Tyranus, but he ragdolls them all the same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe. We don't know how much of the dark side the Wrath has explored in specific detail, either. Based on telekinesis showings, that's not all that likely, though.

read my comments

ILS, your thread doesn't have Maul Draining anything. Or using Stasis.

Pardon me. ILS said "except for Drain", which I misread. I could've sworn Maul's shown Beast Control at some point, though.

Anyway, here's the thing. Maul's definitely underrated and deserves some credit. But the arguments here seem a bit strange - some things that happen quite a bit in the mythos are being brought up as huge for Maul, yet it's not considered that way in the cases of other characters?

"Being trained in Sith lore" or perusing the archives? That's incredibly vague and we don't know how much he had access to or how much time he spent in there. And learning powers from there and then practicing them etc. is another thing entirely. I also like how Maul looking at the archives to an unspecified extent or Dooku having a shelf of ambiguous holocrons is treated as such a big deal, yet Atris, who on top of whatever she had access to as the Head Archivist of the Order, studied dozens of Sith holocrons which specifically contained teachings of combat and the Force, is dismissed as having knowledge of no particular note.

That said, somebody needs to post the quote pertaining to Maul's ability to peruse the archives for more detail - because "studying Sith lore" or whatever Beni posted means the square root of jack shit. I'm sure Maul has better.

Maul's survival and Sidious being surprised is kind of dumb and comes from Sam Witwer, who isn't an official source (worth taking into account, but it's much like the author quotes). In the context of Canon, it is a big deal, but as we're discussing Legends here, it's not that big of a deal - nor does Witwer's quote hold in Legends because the Plagueis novel specifically has Plagueis revealing to Sidious about Gean surviving her duel with Gravid, where she survived worse injuries than Maul. Sion also gets mentioned in Darth Plagueis.

To elaborate on why it's just a showing of immense hatred, not a showing of knowledge, and not that overwhelming in the grand scheme of things - ****ing Maw was able to survive after being cut in half. Sion held his body together despite the flesh itself being ravaged, mutilated and decomposing, and his skeletal fracture having several thousand fractures and breaks. His whole body shouldn't have even been kept together, yet it was - through nothing more than sheer will and hatred. The same goes for Maw. Maul surviving the bisection was through sheer hate, not Force knowledge, based on how others in the past have survived that sort of stuff. That Jedi who claimed "I believe Maul's knowledge of the dark side kept him from dying" is full of shit and I'm not sure why they're being taken as an accurate databank of knowledge on the dark side of the Force. They obviously don't know much about it and it's purely their own speculation. You're reaching if you think it's anything else.

Maul clearly survived on hate, based on both past displays of the same showing as well as the scan of Maul after he tumbled into the abyss. Every other source relating to Maul's survival also claims it was rage and hatred that sustained him, and no other source to my knowledge (certainly no official ones) claim that it's due to knowledge.

Bottom line - it's not a feat of Force knowledge, and it's been replicated by Force users who are widely claimed to be among the weakest named Force users in history. It's not nearly as big as it's made out to be, unless we're also putting Maw and Sion high up. 👆

Also, IIRC, Lucas does say at one point that Maul/Dooku were expendable but Anakin wasn't - I'll have to find it.

Canon is a different continuity altogether from Legends, however, the holistic point of Maul surviving his bisection - that he's very powerful and knowledgeable for doing so - remains. That point doesn't disappear when discussing Legends just because X or Y did something similar. If X or Y were hailed as being extremely powerful for performing those feats, fair enough, otherwise it's just an arbitrary comparison of a Canon feat to ones from Legends which doesn't consider any context.

Also, I'll get you the relevant quotes noting that it was a showing of knowledge as well as power.

Yes, and that Sidious never actually cheated death doesn't mean he lacks the ability to do so.

He clearly did give a shit. Did you want him openly sobbing about it ?

Originally posted by Unbowed
That's awfully magnanimous of him, staying dead when he could have chosen to survive...

Exploding and being bisected are different things. And Palpatine's ability to cheat death may not have been applicable to how he died in RotJ. All we know is that he can cheat death. It's ambiguous how, of course, but it is implied to be similar to Maul's case.

Originally posted by ILS
Canon is a different continuity altogether from Legends, however, the holistic point of Maul surviving his bisection - that he's very powerful and knowledgeable for doing so - remains. That point doesn't disappear when discussing Legends just because X or Y did something similar. If X or Y were hailed as being extremely powerful for performing those feats, fair enough, otherwise it's just an arbitrary comparison of a Canon feat to ones from Legends which doesn't consider any context.

Also, I'll get you the relevant quotes noting that it was a showing of knowledge as well as power.

Yes, as I said, in Canon, it's very good, but in Legends, it's not that overwhelming. And sure, you have to be very powerful do it - just "Sion very powerful".

I've been arguing this solely in a Legends context.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Exploding and being bisected are different things. And Palpatine's ability to cheat death may not have been applicable to how he died in RotJ. All we know is that he can cheat death. It's ambiguous how, of course, but it is implied to be similar to Maul's case.

Yes, as I said, in Canon, it's very good, but in Legends, it's not that overwhelming. And sure, you have to be very powerful do it - just "Sion very powerful".

I've been arguing this solely in a Legends context.

Originally posted by ILS
The point being, even Legends has to recognise a character as being extremely powerful if the overarching point of the feat is Maul being extremely powerful. I'm not measuring the feat as a feat like we would measure how many tonnes of TK someone can lift, I'm measuring it in terms of how significant it's making Maul out to be. Outside of debating terms, Legends is defunct, and in debating terms, Sion hasn't done anything to warrant Sidious' attention.

Sion warranted Plagueis' attention in the Plagueis novel - and Sidious' as well.

That aside, as I said, Maul's very powerful. I'm just saying that the survival itself doesn't represent a level of power beyond Maw or Sion.

And when do I get to see the quote for how much lore Sidious showed Maul? And even then, does viewing a source equate to learning all the knowledge there?

Originally posted by ILS
The point being, even Legends has to recognise a character as being extremely powerful if the overarching point of the feat is Maul being extremely powerful. I'm not measuring the feat as a feat like we would measure how many tonnes of TK someone can lift, I'm measuring it in terms of how significant it's making Maul out to be

Well that's a rather horrendous case for Maul, swords.

I respect that the bolts and screws might be a little rusty... and becoming rustier with every sabbatical, but I can't help feeling - that even you - are beginning to lose faith in the feats do not matter manifesto. So rather then comparing feats, we have a poor case from authorial intent while breaking the fourth wall by muddling the suspense of disbelief. If we are arguing from authorial intent, the their are essentially two reasons why the writers want Maul to survive bisection:

1) To present him as an extremely powerful character
2) Because they want to re-introduce him in story after his 'death', and they need to find some plot armour for him to do that

If we're going with the First point, then the same applies to Sion - and on a much grander scale since the Old Sith makes light work of evading death, Maul does not. If we're going with the second, then Maul's feat can be hand-waved as Plot Induced Stupidity rather than some awesome feat of power for him.

Dear lord.

@Nova

When I was referring to "histories" I was just mentioning that Maul had enough access to be able to talk competently about Bane, Kun, Ulic, Revan and Malak, and he had enough access to build his saberstaff based on Kun's design. But, if you want to keep clinging onto the point, which isn't critical to my argument, on you go.

You're still missing my point regarding the intent behind Maul's feat. I'll give you another example; producing or deflecting Force lightning, or lifting an X-wing, or throwing senate pods, in movie/canon terms, is hailed as being something worthy of only the highest tier Force users. Maul's survival is along the same lines. That's how Canon works.

You then muddy the waters by adding in Legends, where yes, plenty of characters not necessarily revered for being uber powerful have managed those aforementioned feats and then some. That's why I'm saying sure, the feat in and of itself might not be as impressive as in Legends due to the fact someone let a Bioware writer loose with a script, which provoked him to creating a Sith who pretty illogically holds his body together constantly, passively, with his mind, meanwhile it's established in the primary canon that just surviving a simple bisection is hailed as extremely impressive.

But, the intent, or accolade, however you want to put it - that Maul has great power and knowledge of the Dark Side - remains. Meanwhile, Sion didn't receive the same praise, to my knowledge. I can't explain it any better than that.

Nova has easily overtaken ILS tbh.

https://www.talkspace.com/ - I genuinely think this will be of use to you

There is conflicting sources concerning how Sion does what he does. Avellone suggests he holds his body together telekinetically, but other sources state it's purely dictated by his will - in which his anger is described as more prominent than "perhaps" any other Sith in Star Wars, Palpatine included.

KOTOR 2 power level constistency was really done poorly, wasn't it? mmm

KOTOR 2 just strikes me as a shitty, poorly considered attempt at introducing uber new concepts like Sion, Force drain and Force Wound.

Which is why it's inconsistent. Within the context of the game he's by all means a powerhouse, but that doesn't translate to the Revan Novel and onwards.